Pope to bishops: Stop ordering the faithful around

[gilliam]

VATICAN CITY — Pope Francis has told bishops to strongly denounce corruption and to act more like pastors than “pilots” telling the faithful what to do.

Francis’ strong words were aimed at members of the Italian bishops’ conference, who opened their annual meeting at the Vatican on Monday. Francis, who is also the bishop of Rome, urged his bishops to be more Christ-like in showing humility, compassion, mercy, and wisdom.

He told them to not shy away from denouncing the “diffuse mentality” of public and private corruption that he said impoverished families, honest workers, and retirees, while marginalizing the neediest and depriving young people of hope. Italy is rife with corruption scandals, and its youth unemployment rate stands at 43 percent.

cruxnow.com/church/2015/05/18/pope-to-bishops-stop-ordering-the-faithful-around/

 

[Sy_Noe]

Nothing to surprising about this. It merely reflects further the compassionate, softer tone that has generally been at the forefront of this Holy Father’s papacy.

 

[anthony022071]

The author of this article,Nicole Winfield,consistently portrays Pope Francis as a liberal reformer who doesn’t care much about church doctrine or rules and who is always criticizing the members of the Church for the same things that liberals do.

The pope did not tell bishops to stop ordering the faithful around or that the faithful don’t need bishops telling them what to do.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

What the Pope did say;

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1502143.htm

Part of “ecclesial sensitivity” is “reinforcing the indispensable role of the laity willing to take on the responsibilities that belong to them,” he said. “In reality, laypeople who have an authentic Christian formation do not need a ‘bishop-pilot’ or a ‘monsignor-pilot’ or clerical (name removed by moderator)ut to assume their responsibilities at every level from the political to the social, from the economic to the legislative. Instead, they need a ‘bishop-pastor.’”

Jim

 

[Tantum_ergo]

So wait. On the one hand, he’s telling bishops NOT to tell people what to do. On the other, he is telling them NOT to shy away from denouncing corruption.

Anybody else see the disconnect in this writer?

If a bishop is denouncing corruption, isn’t he telling people (even ordering them) not to engage in it? What else is ‘denouncing’ meant to be?

 

[MarcoPolo]

The author of this article,Nicole Winfield,consistently portrays Pope Francis as a liberal reformer who doesn’t care much about church doctrine or rules and who is always criticizing the members of the Church for the same things that liberals do.

The pope did not tell bishops to stop ordering the faithful around or that the faithful don’t need bishops telling them what to do.

It would seem Nicole Winfield’s news is not news. Here is an expose of slants in her articles about the Church.

 

[anthony022071]

It would seem Nicole Winfield’s news is not news. Here is an expose of slants in her articles about the Church.

Thanks for posting this. Its a relief that there are other people who know what she’s about. I hope that clergymen at the Vatican know about her habit of deceptive reporting and rebuke her and keep her out of the Vatican.

 

[SonOfMan]

So wait. On the one hand, he’s telling bishops NOT to tell people what to do. On the other, he is telling them NOT to shy away from denouncing corruption.

Anybody else see the disconnect in this writer?

If a bishop is denouncing corruption, isn’t he telling people (even ordering them) not to engage in it? What else is ‘denouncing’ meant to be?

Looks like you read that wrong:

Pope Francis has told bishops to strongly denounce corruption and to act more like pastors than “pilots” telling the faithful what to do.

It appears Pope Francis is saying the corruption is the Bishops telling people what to do. So hes saying to the Bishops, to denounce *their *behavior of being “pilots”.

 

[Robert_Bay]

MODERATOR NOTICE

Please stop with the ad hominem posts, they are considered uncharitable and off topic in the forums.

When discussing controversial topics. Keep the following in mind:

1. Avoid ad hominem arguments
2. Charitably point out what you feel is wrong without making personal attacks
3. Charitably contribute what you think would be a better approach or a solution, again without making personal attacks.

Two articles have been posted on this thread concerning what the pope said. Which produces a balance and the thread will remain up. Carefully read the articles and don’t jump to conclusions that are not there.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Looks like you read that wrong:

It appears Pope Francis is saying the corruption is the Bishops telling people what to do. So hes saying to the Bishops, to denounce *their *behavior of being “pilots”.

I think you actually read it wrong if you deduced that from what the article said.

What was said (from the article) is this:

He told them to not shy away from denouncing the “diffuse mentality” of public and private corruption that he said impoverished families, honest workers, and retirees, while marginalizing the neediest and depriving young people of hope. Italy is rife with corruption scandals, and its youth unemployment rate stands at 43 percent.

 

[SonOfMan]

I think you actually read it wrong if you deduced that from what the article said.

What was said (from the article) is this:

He told them to not shy away from denouncing the “diffuse mentality” of public and private corruption that he said impoverished families, honest workers, and retirees, while marginalizing the neediest and depriving young people of hope. Italy is rife with corruption scandals, and its youth unemployment rate stands at 43 percent.

Pope Francis is telling the Bishops what to denounce, not what to tell the faithful to denounce.

 

[Colorad007]

Bossy bishops doesn’t seem like a particularly Western problem, but no doubt Western liberals will get all the mileage they can get out of this statement.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Pope Francis is telling the Bishops what to denounce, not what to tell the faithful to denounce.

But that’s not what I understood you to say. You said that the Pope was telling the bishops to denounce their ‘corruption’ of being ‘pilots’, did you not?

And by denouncing a wrong, to those who may practice that wrong, is this considering being ‘like a pilot’? If not, what is the difference between denouncing the wrongs of abortion, fornication, theft, adultery, etc?

It is not ‘ordering people around’ to tell them Christian truths about various subjects. And while modern society might want to consider this as ordering people NOT to do X (whether it is financial corruption, societal corruption, personal corruption, whatever), what the Church is doing is pointing out the wrong in the hope that this will then free individuals to choose the right thing.

If people aren’t told that certain behaviors are wrong, if ‘everybody’ is doing it, if it’s ‘glorified’ or condoned by everybody, including priests who, in omitting to speak about it, are tacitly appearing to accept it, how are they going to learn to do what’s right instead?

 

[SonOfMan]

But that’s not what I understood you to say. You said that the Pope was telling the bishops to denounce their ‘corruption’ of being ‘pilots’, did you not?

I didnt say that, the very first part of the article says that, which I pointed out. So he was telling them to denounce both being “pilots” and “diffuse mentality.”

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I didnt say that, the very first part of the article says that, which I pointed out. So he was telling them to denounce both being “pilots” and “diffuse mentality.”

I really, really did not and do not see that the Pope was telling bishops to ‘denounce being pilots’. However, it is late, I’ve had a long rough day at work, and possibly I just am misunderstanding you, so rather than accidentally derail the thread or worse yet, inadvertently be seen as rude I’d like to let this go and move on to later discussing some of the other points in the article, and look forward to hearing from yours and other voices on those. Have a blessed evening.

 

[J_Peterson]

Bossy bishops doesn’t seem like a particularly Western problem, but no doubt Western liberals will get all the mileage they can get out of this statement.

While I agree it’s not really a problem but it does happen. It didn’t take long for me to find this. Telling someone that if they vote Democrat they are putting their soul at risk while voting Republican won’t is pretty much saying you may go to hell for voting Democrat. I expect a lot more of this in the coming months as we lead up to the election.

rightwingwatch.org/content/bishop-democrats-evils-soul-serious-jeopardy

 

[SWolf]

While I agree it’s not really a problem but it does happen. It didn’t take long for me to find this. Telling someone that if they vote Democrat they are putting their soul at risk while voting Republican won’t is pretty much saying you may go to hell for voting Democrat. I expect a lot more of this in the coming months as we lead up to the election.

rightwingwatch.org/content/bishop-democrats-evils-soul-serious-jeopardy

The Democrats don’t endorse Intrinsic Evils?

Abortion and Sodomy are not intrinsic evils?

 

[J_Peterson]

The Democrats don’t endorse Intrinsic Evils?

Abortion and Sodomy are not intrinsic evils?

That wasn’t my point. My point was that there are Bishops that are ordering the faithful around. Telling us that we must vote for a party or face the possiblity of Hell is, in a certain sense, ordering people around. We are smart enough to make decisions on our own, we have Church teaching to guide us. I’m very happy that Pope Francis acknowledges this.

Since you brought it up, sodomy is not an intrinsic evil.

 

[SWolf]

That wasn’t my point. My point was that there are Bishops that are ordering the faithful around. Telling us that we must vote for a party or face the possiblity of Hell is, in a certain sense, ordering people around. We are smart enough to make decisions on our own, we have Church teaching to guide us. I’m very happy that Pope Francis acknowledges this.

Shepherds direct their sheep. It’s their job.

Since you brought it up, sodomy is not an intrinsic evil.

A crime that cries out to heaven for vengeance isn’t an intrinsic evil?

From the CCC:

1867 The catechetical tradition also recalls that there are “sins that cry to heaven”: the blood of Abel, the sin of the Sodomites, the cry of the people oppressed in Egypt, the cry of the foreigner, the widow, and the orphan, injustice to the wage earner.

 

[J_Peterson]

Shepherds direct their sheep. It’s their job.

A crime that cries out to heaven for vengeance isn’t an intrinsic evil?

From the CCC:

The “sin of the Sodomites” isn’t specified in the CCC and it’s wasn’t necessarily what we call sodomy anyway (unless you ignore Ezekiel). That said, sodomy as we usually define it (oral and anal sex) is allowable by Catholic teaching as long as the man “completes” in the proper place.