Pope to consecrate world to Mary's Immaculate Heart

[R_C]

Russia has always had a deep devotion to the Theotokos (which Communism failed to destroy). It is well meaning to be sure, but I wonder if many folks in the Latin Church realize how “the Fatima Message” strikes many Orthodox.

I wonder if many folks in the Eastern Church realize how we are struck by their rejection of the Immaculate Conception - especially since Our Lady appeared several times in the past and referred to herself first as “conceived without sin” (to St. Catherine Laboure’ in Paris) and then clearly stating: “I am the Immaculate Conception” (to St. Bernadette at Lourdes).

Regardless, Our Lady has appeared and made a very specific mention of Russia to be consecrated to Her Immaculate Heart. When the Servant of God Sr. Lucia, to whom Our Lady had spoken with her brothers, asked Our Lord “why He would not convert Russia without the Holy Father making that consecration”, Our Lord Himself replied:

I want My whole Church to acknowledge that consecration as a triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary so that it may extend its cult later on and put the devotion to this Immaculate Heart beside the devotion to My Sacred Heart

The “Fatima message” may upset our Orthodox brethren, but not half as much as the Communist plague and its almost mortal blow on our civilization (and a painful wound even to the Church) upsets us. For reasons that neither you nor us need to know, the Lord allowed His blessed Mother to ask the bishop who sits on the Apostolic See to do something in order to counteract this fruit of sheer evil - and who are we to question Him? Pride has no place before God’s will!

You are free to not believe in Our Lady’s apparition at Fatima and her and Our Lord’s subsequent requests to the Servant of God Sr. Lucia - as all Catholics also are - but, for us, “the Message of Fatima imposes an obligation on the Church”, one above all else of prayer and sacrifice.

 

[pnewton]

The “Fatima message” may upset our Orthodox brethren, but not half as much as the Communist plague and its almost mortal blow on our civilization (and a painful wound even to the Church) upsets us.

This is a salient point. I have always admired three men, Reagan, Walesa and JPII, for their role in the fall of Soviet Communism. I now think I should have always put Mary at the head of the list.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yes! Imagine what the Christian Church would look like if every time we spread the faith, we let the fact that someone may not agree get in our way? And in the specific case above the offended people do not have an argument with only the Catholic Church but rather with Mary and ultimately the Lord Himself. The fact that some separated brethren are unsettled by Our Lady’s request should not even be a factor. Especially with this Pope who does not seem to really be interested in political nuances but rather just the Truth.

 

[Misplaced_Book]

The Immaculate Conception doesn’t even relate to this…We disagree with it as well, but it is an organic development in your Church, a necessary formulation in your system due to your views on Original Sin. We understand this, even if we think it erroneous or at best superfluous.

Fatima is another matter altogether. It is a “private revelation,” not binding on the faithful of the Latin Church and subject to private belief. A Latin Catholic could declare that Sister Lucia was deluded, and not be anathemized for at it, at least in theory.

What I see in this thread is the near dogmatization of a private revelation (and in R_C’s case, several private revelations).

Are you saying that Eastern Catholic believers are somehow deluded or deficient because they too may reject the Fatima Apparition?

 

[Misplaced_Book]

This is a salient point. I have always admired three men, Reagan, Walesa and JPII, for their role in the fall of Soviet Communism. I now think I should have always put Mary at the head of the list.

I don’t disagree, and the Theotokos should always be given her due honor and veneration.

A reason I posted in this thread was to provide an alternate view, as the unofficial dogmatization of the Fatima Apparition amongst the laity and even the clergy in some parts of the Latin Church always made me raise an eyebrow, even when I was a Latin Catholic.

This isn’t about devotion to the Theotokos…this is about more.

 

[R_C]

@Misplaced_Book

It does relate, as Our Lady and Our Lord speak of her Immaculate Heart! But in your understanding, there is no such thing…

I didn’t foresee this implication (private nonbinding revelation vs. a declaration of the infallible magisterium), I was just sort of moved by the statement that Our Lady’s request in 1917 to consecrate the country that would become the torchbearer of communism and atheism is somewhat upsetting to our Orthodox brethren…and why? Because they’ve always venerated Our Lady? So what?

Already in the past the Lord, exactly one hundred years before the French Revolution, asked the King of France through St. Margaret Mary to consecrate France to His Sacred Heart (which he refused to do for a long time). And yet he and France were Catholic. Such a request from above should not be seen as an offense to the Orthodox Church any more than it can be seen an offense to the Catholic Church!

Surely your tradition has a somewhat different understanding of Original Sin, but so is with us in our understanding of these private revelations - sure, nonbiding, and yet officially acknowledged after much prudent discernment (unlike plenty of others) as of supernatural origin and free of theological error. So just as we are upset by that, you may be upset by this - both “upsets” are due to lack of understanding of our tradition, and thus are not justified.

The small difference is that we have supernatural private revelations and miracles to support our beliefs - namely, several officially recognized private revelations from the Lord and Our Lady reaffirming, before and after the dogmatic definition, the Immaculate Conception as we understand it, and the signs of Fatima also known as “miracle of the sun”, witnessed by thousands - and you simply refuse to accept that the Latin Church may be right and the Eastern Church may be wrong on these matters.

We have seen this before.

I know God will take care of everything, give us light to clarify our differences, and reunite us into one flock in due time, if it be His will.

Just I don’t feel it’s right to say Our Lady’s request offends our Eastern brothers. She asked for prayer and for Communion of reparation for many offenses against her, and she asked the successor of Peter to consecrate Russia in particular to her motherly heart. That can’t be offensive.

Christ told the priests and doctors of the law: “publicans and prostitutes precede you in the kingdom of God”. Now *that *sound offensive. Yet it comes from Christ. We bow our head and bend our knee, period.

I do wish to mention a few facts worth recalling on the Fatima apparitions:

• Russia was experiencing since February 1917 the communist revolution (despite a long history of devotion to Our Lady).
• Three poor children of Portugal (Fatima) begun to see Our Lady in May 1917. They probably didn’t even know what this Russia was, even less what was happening there.
• In 1929 Our Lady asked for the consecration of Russia. It didn’t happen.
• In June 1939 Our Lord said: “they did not want to heed to my request…they will repent and do it, but it will be late. Russia will have already spread its errors throughout the world, provoking wars and persecution against the Church: the Holy Father will have much to suffer.”
• In August 1939 the Ribbentrop–Molotov Pact was signed between URSS and Nazi Germany.
• In September 1939 Nazi Germany and the URSS invade Polony. World War II begins.
• On October 1942, Pope Pius XII does a solemn consecration of the world and of Russia in particular to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
• In 1943 we have the “turning point” - the Allies begin to defeat the Axis. World War II ended on September 2, 1945.
• In a 1980 interview on the Third Secret that Our Lady revealed to Sr. Lucia, Pope John Paul II said: “*Because of the seriousness of its contents, in order not to encourage the world wide power of Communism to carry out certain coups, my predecessors in the chair of Peter have diplomatically preferred to withhold its publication. We must be prepared to undergo great trials in the not-too-distant future; trials that will require us to be ready to give up even our lives, and a total gift of self to Christ and for Christ. Through your prayers and mine, it is possible to alleviate this tribulation, but it is no longer possible to avert it, because it is only in this way that the Church can be effectively renewed. How many times, indeed, has the renewal of the Church been effected in blood? This time, again, it will not be otherwise. *”
• On May 13, 1981 - anniversary of the apparitions of Fatima - Pope John Paul II is shot four times at close range by a professional killer and survived. He later said: “It was a mother’s hand that guided the bullet’s path.” One bullet is encrusted on the crown of Our Lady of Fatima. When he later met the shooter, he asked: “So, why aren’t you dead?”
• On March 25, 1984, after having asked all bishops to be united with him in spirit, Pope John Paul II renewed - in St. Peter’s Square, before the statue of Our Lady brought from Fatima - the consecration of the world and of Russia in particular to her Immaculate Heart.
• From 1984 to 1989 major negative events impact the USSR.
• On August 1989 Sr. Lucia writes that now the consecration had been made as Our Lady requested it.
• On November 1989 falls the Berlin Wall.
• On December 25, 1991, the USSR is dissolved.

The Lord said in Scripture: “if you don’t believe in my words, believe in the works, for wisdom is justified by her works.”

 

[Teelynn]

Oh God,

I love this man. He is steering the church right where it needs to go, back to Mary by means of the consecration. Every time a Pope does this something good happens. The Heavenly Father wants Russia, the world, you & me to be consecrated to Mary.

Sister Lucia said she remained on earth to spread devotion to Mary. The good sister would have us all consecrated to Mary. The power is in the consecration, as Mary mentioned during/in “The Last Vision of Fatima” The Father will save Russia by this means.

The Pope knows Mary is our refuge.

Peace,
Ed

I watched a very enlightening program on EWTN (women of grace) on the importance of consecrating oneself to Jesus thru MARY. She is the vehicle and the TEACHER if you will to show us and help us to love her son with the same love that SHE has for him. If you want to rise to holiness more quickly and completely…go to MARY FIRST and ask her to help you…SHE WILL NOT REFUSE. One of her main jobs is to bring her children to her son and unite them.

This Holy Father is truly showing his holiness by relying on Mary to guide him and all of us. (as many of our Holy Fathers have done, but he has been doing this from his first day as our new Holy Father)

Yes indeed Mary is surely our REFUGE…“MAMA” to ALL OF US She is totally AWESOME. And how truly BLESSED we are to have such a Marian Holy Father!
So needed for the times we are living in.

 

[Misplaced_Book]

@ R_C,

The Theotokos has a heart that is bigger than we can conceive, as she cares about her spiritual children. Again, this is not about devotion to the Theotokos, but it goes beyond that.

The Immaculate Heart devotion is purely Western in its theology, its origin and implications. It is foreign to Orthodox Spirituality and in your good intentions perhaps you do not see how it might be perceived. The blood of the Russian Martyrs and their successors consecrated that ground quite profoundly.

You assume that I have not considered the Latin Church’s position, you are quite mistaken. I was a Latin Catholic (mentioned earlier) for years…3rd Degree Knight of Columbus, Knight of the Immaculata and Vice President of my Newman Center in College. I don’t mention these things to establish any kind of authority and God forgive any arrogance on my part, I am writing that to tell you that I see exactly where you are coming from. I read what you wrote and frankly I would have written the exact same thing before I started my Journey to Orthodoxy.

This thread is in real danger of going down the road of East VS. West, which is not where I would like it to go. You don’t see the problem…I didn’t either back then…and I can’t argue the point further without going down the road I mentioned. I will conclude by saying that private revelations are a delicate thing, and the danger of spiritual delusion is great. One should be careful.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Private revelations approved by the Church have absolutely no danger whatsoever! To state otherwise is to not understand the process or revelation at all. Nobody said it has to be believed. Perhaps you should consider how what you have said can be taken by the Latin Catholics. I know you would not want to offend.

 

[pnewton]

Private revelations approved by the Church have absolutely no danger whatsoever!

I don’t know about that. There is always a danger, even in areas of doctrine, if we go beyond the Church. Some cultures have combined private revelations with superstition and end up with a form of idolatry. There are also those who take these optional private devotions as more important than the Church’s authority.

 

[agnes_therese]

Private revelations approved by the Church have absolutely no danger whatsoever! To state otherwise is to not understand the process or revelation at all. Nobody said it has to be believed. Perhaps you should consider how what you have said can be taken by the Latin Catholics. I know you would not want to offend.

You are misreading what Misplaced_Book said: “the danger of spiritual delusion is great. One should be careful.” This is most certainly true, and many of the great saints have said so. St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila come first to mind, but they are not alone.

But to add my own thought, there is also danger in the way some people place private revelations on the same level with, or even above, the official teachings of the Church.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

You are misreading what Misplaced_Book said: “the danger of spiritual delusion is great. One should be careful.” This is most certainly true, and many of the great saints have said so. St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila come first to mind, but they are not alone.

But to add my own thought, there is also danger in the way some people place private revelations on the same level with, or even above, the official teachings of the Church.

I must be missing where some people on this thread have gone down that road. I was assuming that most people would know that a private revelation that is approved by the Church can or cannot be recognized by a person or even Pope who wants to have a devotion. As with anything in religion and in the Catholic faith, one COULD take it to an extreme. But I wonder why that is even being pointed out here. Forgive me, I do not know how to quote well here yet.

Missedplaced Book, in previous posts, has made the point that:

" I wonder if many folks in the Latin Church realize how “the Fatima Message” strikes many Orthodox."

Which I think is totally off subject anyway.

Then the poster says:
"A reason I posted in this thread was to provide an alternate view, as the unofficial dogmatization of the Fatima Apparition amongst the laity and even the clergy in some parts of the Latin Church always made me raise an eyebrow, even when I was a Latin Catholic. "

Here the poster is trying to provide an “alternate view.” And then expands on what the view is that he is providing an alternate for which I fail to see at all in this thread.
But again the poster make an accusation:

"What I see in this thread is the near dogmatization of a private revelation (and in R_C’s case, several private revelations). "

I’m sorry but I see nowhere in this thread that a near dogmatization of private revelation is being asserted and frankly I wonder why no one else sees this as somewhat combative?

 

[Misplaced_Book]

I must be missing where some people on this thread have gone down that road. I was assuming that most people would know that a private revelation that is approved by the Church can or cannot be recognized by a person or even Pope who wants to have a devotion. As with anything in religion and in the Catholic faith, one COULD take it to an extreme. But I wonder why that is even being pointed out here. Forgive me, I do not know how to quote well here yet.

Missedplaced Book, in previous posts, has made the point that:

" I wonder if many folks in the Latin Church realize how “the Fatima Message” strikes many Orthodox."

Which I think is totally off subject anyway.

Then the poster says:
"A reason I posted in this thread was to provide an alternate view, as the unofficial dogmatization of the Fatima Apparition amongst the laity and even the clergy in some parts of the Latin Church always made me raise an eyebrow, even when I was a Latin Catholic. "

Here the poster is trying to provide an “alternate view.” And then expands on what the view is that he is providing an alternate for which I fail to see at all in this thread.
But again the poster make an accusation:

"What I see in this thread is the near dogmatization of a private revelation (and in R_C’s case, several private revelations). "

I’m sorry but I see nowhere in this thread that a near dogmatization of private revelation is being asserted and frankly I wonder why no one else sees this as somewhat combative?

You misunderstood what I was meaning. That has been addressed by other posters rather well (I appreciate that).

This thread’s title is combative. As you mentioned before, Russia was not specifically mentioned but the whole world. Russia is already under the patronage of the Theotokos (as I said)…There is no reason in 2013 to single out Russia. That is why I said what I said, and it isn’t off subject at all.

You said so yourself, that the Fatima Apparition does not have to be believed…so if someone discounts it, why get so defensive? If I said that the Catholic Saint Catherine Laboure was inspired by the Theotokos and Sister Lucia was not, that is a perfectly acceptable opinion within your Communion (in theory)…or vice versa…or I could say I don’t believe in either (For what it’s worth, I found it admirable that Laboure kept her identity a secret up until the end).

Such opinions would however, put me outside of the mainstream of Catholic Piety and Spiritual Life, as Latin Spirituality relies heavily on these apparitions and visions. That is why I question the very notion that they “don’t have to be believed in.”

I am pointing out the dangers because the Fatima Apparition (and the unapproved Medjugore) out of all the apparitions seems to lend itself most to misguided notions and delusion. Please do not think I mean you necessarily, it was a more general point that I was trying to make.

Forgive me if I have caused you to stumble or any pain. I understand that this is a Roman Catholic board and that I am a guest…however, there are many non-RC Christians as well. To single out Russia in this context is wrong, and violates years of Ecumenical dialogue and spirit. Moscow answers the phone now when Rome calls to say hello…this wasn’t the case 25-30 years ago.

The differences and conflict between East and West are deep, and I don’t want to rehash that here. This will be my last word on this thread.

 

[agnes_therese]

I must be missing where some people on this thread have gone down that road.
I’m sorry but I see nowhere in this thread that a near dogmatization of private revelation is being asserted and frankly I wonder why no one else sees this as somewhat combative?

I didn’t say it was on this thread. I’ve seen it on others, more than once. One long thread was completely deleted yesterday; while I’m not privy to the mod’s reasons for doing so, that’s one of the things that was happening on that thread.

I’m sorry you see it as “combative” to point out that this shouldn’t happen.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I didn’t say it was on this thread. I’ve seen it on others, more than once. One long thread was completely deleted yesterday; while I’m not privy to the mod’s reasons for doing so, that’s one of the things that was happening on that thread.

I’m sorry you see it as “combative” to point out that this shouldn’t happen.

Good, I’m glad that is being dealt with. Can you please point out where that is happening here? Maybe I am missing something on this thread. But I don’t see a problem here.
In my personal life I know only one person I have ever met that does the things described. I know it is common on the internet but a simple google of private revelations reveals very strong cautions and very clear teaching. As a convert I struggle to understand some people’s devotions to the Blessed Mother but I can tell you that in this thread what Misplaced book describes is not evident. So if one wishes to fight those battles perhaps doing so where those battles exist would bear more fruit.

 

[gus]

Russia has always had a deep devotion to the Theotokos (which Communism failed to destroy). It is well meaning to be sure, but I wonder if many folks in the Latin Church realize how “the Fatima Message” strikes many Orthodox.

Given in the context of the time. 1917
why would the Fatima message upset the Orthodox?
Why don’t you just take it as a plea to Catholics not to forget their Russian brothers in their time of peril. Communism was a real peril.
Growing up in the cold war that’s the way I perceived the message.
Given the current state of the world ( Russia is a part of that world) A rededication from time to time can’t hurt.

 

[agnes_therese]

Good, I’m glad that is being dealt with. Can you please point out where that is happening here? Maybe I am missing something on this thread. But I don’t see a problem here.

As I said before, right in the post you quoted, I didn’t say it was on this thread. I really don’t see how to say that more clearly, I’m sorry.
I would ask if someone else here could re-state it for you, but we’re in danger of derailing the thread. Probably best to just drop it.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

As I said before, right in the post you quoted, I didn’t say it was on this thread. I really don’t see how to say that more clearly, I’m sorry.
I would ask if someone else here could re-state it for you, but we’re in danger of derailing the thread. Probably best to just drop it.

Ok so it is not on this thread. Which is exactly why I am pointing out that it has nothing to do with the subject. Implying that some most Catholics have a problem in regards to Mary which is what misplaced book was stating is a falsehood.
Yup, you are right it probably has no bearing on this thread. Why are we still talking about it? Catholic teaching is quite clear on this subject and I think it has been dealt with adequately here.

Perhaps you could start a thread about the perceived problem with private revelations.

 

[agnes_therese]

Ok so it is not on this thread. Which is exactly why I am pointing out that it has nothing to do with the subject. Implying that some most Catholics have a problem in regards to Mary which is what misplaced book was stating is a falsehood.
Yup, you are right it probably has no bearing on this thread. Why are we still talking about it? Catholic teaching is quite clear on this subject and I think it has been dealt with adequately here.

Perhaps you could start a thread about the perceived problem with private revelations.

I don’t need to start a thread. We are only still talking about it because you keep harping on it, and claiming I said it was on this thread when I said no such thing. If you’ll stop putting words in my mouth, I can stop correcting you, OK?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I don’t need to start a thread. We are only still talking about it because you keep harping on it, and claiming I said it was on this thread when I said no such thing. If you’ll stop putting words in my mouth, I can stop correcting you, OK?

Ok If you think I put words in your mouth please point that out to me. I would not want to do that. I don’t think I have. Other than asking you why this would even be addressed on this thread I don’t think I am “putting words in your mouth” I am happy and absolutely looking forward to moving on. I don’t understand why you are so defensive.
Sorry if I have offended you. I am new here so I may not have seen where this is a huge issue with people in this community elevating a private revelation over the Church herself. Perhaps I need to bow out and watch for a while and I will see it. I sure hope I don’t! That is a bad bad road to go down for a Catholic. But I will take your word for it that it is an issue. Again, it probably deserves its own subject and does not belong on this thread which was my point to begin with. My original point was that I disagree with the implications of misplaced book. That poster has tried to clarify and you and I are still chipping at each other. Have I upset you?