Pope to make universal indult for the Old Mass

[kmktexas]

SummaTheo:

How could the bishop do that?? According to the GIRM no priest is forbidden to say the NO mass in Latin.

This is true. And I know that their are priests here who say the Mass at least partly (or more) in Latin at times. As long as it isn’t listed as a Latin Mass and is on the QT, they seem to be ok. However, the Bishop made a big deal in one of his letters about how generous he was to give permission for Two whole Latin NO Masses each Sunday. The implication being that permission had not been granted for others.

 

[oat_soda]

the way i see it, the church is in such a horrible state right now that B16 has nothing to lose bringing back what was never revoked. i think the church needs to officially acknowledge that the reform or the liturgy was a huge debacle. something pretty clear in B16’s writtings.

the days of the institutional church are over. instead of working from the top down, it needs to work both ways as we are all responsible for our faith. you obviously can’t trust catholic schools or bishops to faithfully hand down the faith. the system doesn’t work anymore. the latin mass does and so do the lay movements.

the pope is not the owner or creator of the liturgy but the servant. paul the vi blundered when he permitted a near outright ban on the trindentine mass while forcing a totally fabricated liturgy in its place.

once we unify with the orthodox again, the pope’s proper place will be realized. he’s the shepperd of the flock, and can only be the liturgies humble servant and not its origin. i think we need to identify ourselves as following the faith handed down by the apostles and not the faith handed down by the pope.

 

[Ham1]

jimmy:

Although I agree it would not be good to apprear to cave to the schismatics, that is not the point. If it is best for the Church to do it, they should.

But, I think that the damage of appearing to give in to the whackjobs (SSPX not you loyal people who like the old Mass) would outweigh the benefits that some may feel. We should all remember that the number of people who want the availability of the old Mass is very very statistically small. In the grand breadth of the Church it is a tiny percentage.

Instead of a focus on increasing the number of tridentine Masses, I think the focus will continue on promoting the Novus Ordo said properly. It seems that there are many young great priests and many young great liturgists who are slowly but surely overhauling the liturgy and making it what it should have been.

That’s my 2 cents anyway.

 

[Brendan]

oat soda:

. i think we need to identify ourselves as following the faith handed down by the apostles and not the faith handed down by the pope.

They are one and the same. The Pope, by definition, hands down the teachings of the Apostles on matters of faith and morals.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Dropper:

Easy for you to say. Your Litugy hasn’t been been changed around (quite literally) as ours has. I don’t think that your opinion would be the same if your Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom had been changed to the Divine Litrurgy of Paul VI, or John Paul II.

I had to think on this a bit because what you say here is just utter nonsense.

First off, the Pope would not no such thing as this sort of thing would be out of his realm of things. Yes he could do so as the Supreme Pontiff but he would not and I do not deal in hypotheticals.

Having said that, it was not the pope who changed the Liturgy of the Latin Church, in a sense, as the pope is also the Patriach of the West and the Bishop of Rome. In this case he was working in his role as Patriach of the West and it was done in union with the Magisterium.

The form of the Liturgy is a matter of discipline and it can and does change. I am not so ethralled with the form of the Liturgy that any change would make that much of a difference.

This comment also shows a lack of understanding of what is going on in my Church, the Byzantine Catholic Church, as the Archeparchy has worked out a new Liturgy for us and it is soon to be released. No it won’t be a wholesale change but in someplaces the change will be great but that is the topic for another thread.

 

[Psalm45_9]

dumspirospero:

I am not an arrogant schismatic…I would very much support a universal Indult…I attend an Indult TLM nearly every weekend…there is no reason why other Nostalgic Catholics, such as myself, should be denied the beauty, reverence, and respect I witness every Sunday at Mass.

My sentiment exactly.

 

[Thriller]

Ham1:

But, I think that the damage of appearing to give in to the whackjobs (SSPX not you loyal people who like the old Mass) would outweigh the benefits that some may feel. We should all remember that the number of people who want the availability of the old Mass is very very statistically small. In the grand breadth of the Church it is a tiny percentage.

Instead of a focus on increasing the number of tridentine Masses, I think the focus will continue on promoting the Novus Ordo said properly. It seems that there are many young great priests and many young great liturgists who are slowly but surely overhauling the liturgy and making it what it should have been.

That’s my 2 cents anyway.

Amen to that! BTW most novus ordo masses where I live are done properly, it just takes a small community to help make the liturgy properly done.

So with that said Ladies and Gentlemen, we should be focusing on promoting the novus ordo( helping correct if something isn’t done in accordance with the Lord’s word and his bride the Church) and leave the tridentine mass how it is.

And that’s all folks…( mi dos centavos)

Podo The Hobbit

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Ham1:

But, I think that the damage of appearing to give in to the whackjobs (SSPX not you loyal people who like the old Mass) would outweigh the benefits that some may feel. We should all remember that the number of people who want the availability of the old Mass is very very statistically small. In the grand breadth of the Church it is a tiny percentage.

I think most people in the pews, as in any large group, are sedentary blobs who wouldn’t raise a peep if they went to church on Sunday and Father was saying Mass in Pig Latin and wearing bright day glo orange vestments.

Most people have a herd mentality. If Mass is being offered, they go. Few get bogged down in details of abuses, rubrics, etc. that dominate this board.

And Rome has been giving into the whackjobs for years. See girl altar boys, communion in the hand, etc. One more time won’t hurt.

 

[netmilsmom]

Dr. Bombay:

I think most people in the pews, as in any large group, are sedentary blobs who wouldn’t raise a peep if they went to church on Sunday and Father was saying Mass in Pig Latin and wearing bright day glo orange vestments.

Most people have a herd mentality. If Mass is being offered, they go. Few get bogged down in details of abuses, rubrics, etc. that dominate this board.

And Rome has been giving into the whackjobs for years. See girl altar boys, communion in the hand, etc. One more time won’t hurt.

Geez, half of them come after the Homily and leave after Communion.
I agree

 

[Podo2005]

Dr. Bombay:

I think most people in the pews, as in any large group, are sedentary blobs who wouldn’t raise a peep if they went to church on Sunday and Father was saying Mass in Pig Latin and wearing bright day glo orange vestments.

Most people have a herd mentality. If Mass is being offered, they go. Few get bogged down in details of abuses, rubrics, etc. that dominate this board.

And Rome has been giving into the whackjobs for years. See girl altar boys, communion in the hand, etc. One more time won’t hurt.

Oh ya? Maybe in your parish, but not to many… and the fact that Rome has allowed things like Female Altar servers and communion in the hand? Because probably the Church has thought about these matters, researched them, prayed then made a decision( they didn’t give in) Please do tell me where Jesus said women can’t serve him and we aren’t allowed to recieve him in the hand. You know there are many errors in the tridentine mass as well? One example the Priest with his back turned to you( I suppose Jesus had his back to us when he was preaching eh? and don’t tell me we are facing Christ because Christ is everywhere)

Podo The Hobbit

 

[Podo2005]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Geez, half of them come after the Homily and leave after Communion.
I agree

But the thing is we can’t blame anyone because alot of people aren’t educated enough to know. It’s sad though how catholics are better at blaming people and not actually teach them
Podo The Hobbit

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Podo2005:

Oh ya? Maybe in your parish, but not to many… and the fact that Rome has allowed things like Female Altar servers and communion in the hand? Because probably the Church has thought about these matters, researched them, prayed then made a decision( they didn’t give in) Please do tell me where Jesus said women can’t serve him and we aren’t allowed to recieve him in the hand. You know there are many errors in the tridentine mass as well? One example the Priest with his back turned to you( I suppose Jesus had his back to us when he was preaching eh? and don’t tell me we are facing Christ because Christ is everywhere)

Podo The Hobbit

Wow. I guess I don’t no to much. I wish I new as much about history as u. were’d you get you’re masters degree?

Of course women can serve Jesus and did serve Him when he walked the earth…cooking, doing laundry, etc. Even the Saviour required such mundane women’s work to be done for Him.

It’s no different today. We’d be in a terrible mess in the Church if we didn’t have the women around to launder the altar linens, vacuum the sanctuary and arrange the flowers on the altar. Oh, and they’re good for cleaning up after coffee and donuts too. :clapping:

Some day, Podo, when you’re a big girl you too can aspire to such lofty ambitions.

 

[netmilsmom]

Podo2005:

But the thing is we can’t blame anyone because alot of people aren’t educated enough to know. It’s sad though how catholics are better at blaming people and not actually teach them
Podo The Hobbit

Oh there is someone to blame.
Like my old DRE that only wanted the kids to have, “A good experience” instead of teaching them anything.

When I told her that our Adults know nothing about Sacraments, she said, "I know, there was bad instructions in the seventies.’

I said, “So why don’t we as the Education Committee do something about it?”

She said, “They won’t listen.”

At which point I told her that if they won’t listen, it is on their immortal souls but if we never instruct them it is on ours.

I quit and left for a more orthodox parish.

 

[Iohannes]

It quite interesting to hear that liturgical abuse in the old testament was actually punished more severely. A King decided to usurp the role of the priest and tried to offer incense, he contacted leprosy from that.

 

[netmilsmom]

Dr. Bombay:

Wow. I guess I don’t no to much. I wish I new as much about history as u. were’d you get you’re masters degree?

Of course women can serve Jesus and did serve Him when he walked the earth…cooking, doing laundry, etc. Even the Saviour required such mundane women’s work to be done for Him.

It’s no different today. We’d be in a terrible mess in the Church if we didn’t have the women around to launder the altar linens, vacuum the sanctuary and arrange the flowers on the altar. Oh, and they’re good for cleaning up after coffee and donuts too. :clapping:

Some day, Podo, when you’re a big girl you too can aspire to such lofty ambitions.

I resemble that remark!
But I’m still ducking for you, my friend.

 

[Iohannes]

Podo,

As for priest “having his back to the people” is a misstatement, It is called liturgical East or Ad Orientem. It is not an error as you call it. The priest faces East because it is the direction of the second coming of our Lord and the sun rises east, a symbol of the resurrection. If you understood the Mass to be a Sacrifice of Calvary, this would make sense too. There is a biblical defense for facing East, I am not sure of the passage, but it is in the bible somewhere(I think it may have to do with the old jewish temple worship). But then you may not listen to me.

One note podo, when the priest does preach he faces the people, when he offers a Sacrifice, he faces God, the offering is for God not for the congregation. Even in the Novus Ordo, this is the normal rubrics and it does not matter if it is in English or Latin.

 

[Iohannes]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[James0235]

Iohannes:

http://uvoc.org/Sacrifice_of_the_Mass.jpg

Sweet!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I have been thinking about this.

There really can be no such thing as a “universal indult” or there shouldn’t be.

As an Indult is a license granted by the pope authorizing an act that the common law of the Church does not sanction.

Now if an indult is universial then how can it be an act that the common law of the Church does not sanction?

I would be very surprised if the Holy Father ever did something such as this though as it would totally destroy the collegiality of the Church. But then the West did move away from that a long time ago.

I think this would end up hurting the Latin Church in the long run. A priest makes a promise of obedience to his bishop. If a parish wants the normative Mass of the Latin Catholic Church but the pastor then refuses what happens?

You think there’s a vocation “crisis” now, just wait. There will be even more priestless parishes but they will be priestless because the priests will think they know better. There will be priests without jobs becuase they do not want to celebrate the normative Mass any longer and the bishop will not have any need for them any more.

This will not cure anything, just open up a whole other can of worms.

 

[MikeWM]

Podo2005:

and the fact that Rome has allowed things like Female Altar servers and communion in the hand? Because probably the Church has thought about these matters, researched them, prayed then made a decision( they didn’t give in)

Nah - didn’t you know that the Church is weak and suggestable. You do something they don’t like for long enough, and they just roll over and say ‘oh, okay then, we’re powerless to stop you’. There will be women priests in a few years as long as people keep on going out on boats and ‘ordaining’ them.

Hmm. Sarcasm off now, methinks.

Of course you are right. They are allowed because Rome thinks they are acceptable, not because Rome is powerless. It amazes me the number of people on here who think Rome just rolls over when a bit of pressure is put on it. I have more faith in the Church.

Mike