Pope to make universal indult for the Old Mass

[thistle]

My comments transferred from the other thread:

Why would anyone apart from elitists want Mass to be in Latin?
The vast majority of Catholics are in the developing world - Latin America, Africa and Asia.
Latin would not be a unifying thing, but rather something in common. Don’t 99.99% of the 1.1 billion Catholics who don’t speak or understand Latin have the right to understand and fully participate in a Mass in their own language!!

 

[msproule]

thistle:

Why would anyone apart from elitists want Mass to be in Latin?

Please explain why desiring Mass in Latin would make one an elitist. I do not see the logic here.

Latin would not be a unifying thing, but rather something in common.

I understand what you are attempting to imply with this statement. However, I think you are merely arguing semantics. Regardless, in reviewing the title of this (and “the other”) thread, the topic is not a full return to the TLM, but rather more widespread use of it where desired.

Don’t 99.99% of the 1.1 billion Catholics who don’t speak or understand Latin have the right to understand and fully participate in a Mass in their own language!!

With all due respect, Latin is the language of the Church and has been for longer than I can remember . Your argument suggests that there should be no Spanish language Masses in non-Hispanic communities.

Finally, since we are arguing semantics: we do not have the right to attend a Mass in our native language. Rather, it is a privilege.

 

[msproule]

Podo2005:

You know there are many errors in the tridentine mass as well? One example the Priest with his back turned to you( I suppose Jesus had his back to us when he was preaching eh? and don’t tell me we are facing Christ because Christ is everywhere)

As impressed as I am at this attempt at a supporting argument (usually you offer few if any), it seems once again your arrow has missed its mark.

Iohannes has already pointed out your errors and offered instruction that might be helpful, if you take a few moments to consider it. However, I suspect you ignored his offering. For everybody else’s sake, I will spare restating his words.

It has been suggested before that you study up on Church teaching, especially before posting something containing gross errors. Obviously, you spend your time doing other things.

 

[thistle]

msproule:

Please explain why desiring Mass in Latin would make one an elitist. I do not see the logic here.

I understand what you are attempting to imply with this statement. However, I think you are merely arguing semantics. Regardless, in reviewing the title of this (and “the other”) thread, the topic is not a full return to the TLM, but rather more widespread use of it where desired.

With all due respect, Latin is the language of the Church and has been for longer than I can remember . Your argument suggests that there should be no Spanish language Masses in non-Hispanic communities.

Finally, since we are arguing semantics: we do not have the right to attend a Mass in our native language. Rather, it is a privilege.

My point is that anyone attending a Mass should be able to understand what is being said. In that respect no it wouldn’t make sense either to have Mass in Spanish in London, for example.
I don’t recollect Jesus instituting the Eurcharist in Latin.

 

[Iohannes]

Latin is NOT the main issue here. Otherwise we would be using the 1964 Missal, which is the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular.

With that being said…
Language change over time, look at the problems of the English Translation. Everyone seeme to be worried about if the new translation would be “inclusive”, “modern” and “Accomadating”. No one seems to be worrying if the new tranlsation is faithful to the Latin text. If the Mass is in Latin, imagine the time and energy saved not worry about this stupid things.

IF any latin teacher had to grade the current translation of the English Novus Ordo, I am sure it would recieve a D or an F.

“Et cum spiritu tuo” does not translate into “and also with you”.

 

[netmilsmom]

Some people seem to be missing the real point.
A Universal Indult does not mean that every mass is in Latin.

It means that it is allowed everywhere a priest and his congregation want it.
What is wrong with that?

 

[Iohannes]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Some people seem to be missing the real point.
A Universal Indult does not mean that every mass is in Latin.

It means that it is allowed everywhere a priest and his congregation want it.
What is wrong with that?

Bishops are scared.

 

[msproule]

Iohannes:

Language change over time, look at the problems of the English Translation. Everyone seeme to be worried about if the new translation would be “inclusive”, “modern” and “Accomadating”. No one seems to be worrying if the new tranlsation is faithful to the Latin text. If the Mass is in Latin, imagine the time and energy saved not worry about this stupid things.

Well said!

To me it seems that some people follow this type of logic:
Disunity = Unity
Complexity = Simplicity

Why complicate something that does not need to be?

 

[msproule]

thistle:

My point is that anyone attending a Mass should be able to understand what is being said.

Then go to the vernacular NO Mass that would still be celebrated in plenty of places, even in the event of a universal indult for the TLM. Or, if the only Mass you can attend on some occasions happens to be a TLM, then take a few minutes beforehand to read a missal and know what is being said. Is that too much to ask of us? I do not think so.

…it wouldn’t make sense either to have Mass in Spanish in London, for example.

Yet this does exist. Even worse, the readings and preaching are also spoken in Spanish.

I don’t recollect Jesus instituting the Eurcharist in Latin.

That settles it then; All Masses should be in Aramaic or perhaps Greek. This point is moot.

 

[palmas85]

seeker63:

The middle-aged pastor at my parish says he’s only presided once over a Latin Mass, and had trouble doing it because of his lack of familiarity with it.

There’s only one LatinMass in my city a week, and it’s hard to get to. I’d love to have it readily available, but who will preside over it?

The Novus Ordo Mass in Latin is the same as any other Novus Ordo Mass. The only difference is that certain parts are in Latin. Any Priest could probably pick it up fairly easily.

The Traditional Mass is fairly stylized and would probably take some time to learn. Not so much the Latin but the movements of the Mass itself…

 

[palmas85]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Some people seem to be missing the real point.
A Universal Indult does not mean that every mass is in Latin.

It means that it is allowed everywhere a priest and his congregation want it.
What is wrong with that?

From what I have seen on this and similar threads, there appears to be what could almost be described as a hatred for the Traditional Mass by many in the Church today. I find that amazing since most people have probably never attended one. Why they have this antipathy I don’t know.

I think those people are scared to death that the universal indult would be the first step towards mandating that all Masses be of the Traditional variety. And that thought alone is enough to terrify them.

 

[stanley123]

Iohannes:

Bishops are scared.

What exactly would they be scared of?

 

[MrS]

thistle:

My point is that anyone attending a Mass should be able to understand what is being said. In that respect no it wouldn’t make sense either to have Mass in Spanish in London, for example.
I don’t recollect Jesus instituting the Eurcharist in Latin.

A while back, I attended a Mass in the Maronite (?) Rite. The celebrant announced he was going to say the words of consecration in the language Jesus probably did use…Aramaic.

You could have heard a pin drop. The altar boys were unsure of when to ring the bells, so they were silent too.

It was absolutely beautiful…totally understandable…and we don’t speak Aramaic.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

MrS:

A while back, I attended a Mass in the Maronite (?) Rite. The celebrant announced he was going to say the words of consecration in the language Jesus probably did use…Aramaic.

You could have heard a pin drop. The altar boys were unsure of when to ring the bells, so they were silent too.

It was absolutely beautiful…totally understandable…and we don’t speak Aramaic.

Just to get the terms correct, you did not attend a Mass, you attended the Qurbono, which is the Divine Liturgy of the Maronites.

Yes they use Aramaic in their liturgy and I am glad that the altar servers could not ring the bells because that does not happen in the Qurbono, the bells are a Western thing.

 

[thistle]

msproule:

Then go to the vernacular NO Mass that would still be celebrated in plenty of places, even in the event of a universal indult for the TLM. Or, if the only Mass you can attend on some occasions happens to be a TLM, then take a few minutes beforehand to read a missal and know what is being said. Is that too much to ask of us? I do not think so.

Yet this does exist. Even worse, the readings and preaching are also spoken in Spanish.

That settles it then; All Masses should be in Aramaic or perhaps Greek. This point is moot.

You are clearly one of the elitists in the West and probably have never attended a Mass in a third world country (where most Catholics are). I’m British but happen to live in the Philippines. There are NO missals in any of the churches here. You have no idea how poor (in financial terms) the people are and the Church is in a country like this, which incidentally has more Catholics than USA. People are struggling hard just to feed their families (about 50% of the people live below the poverty line) but their faith is strong so the least you could do for them is to have a good Christian attitude (stop being condescending and arrogant) and let them have a Mass they can fully understand.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

thistle:

You are clearly one of the elitists in the West and probably have never attended a Mass in a third world country (where most Catholics are). I’m British but happen to live in the Philippines. There are NO missals in any of the churches here. You have no idea how poor (in financial terms) the people are and the Church is in a country like this, which incidentally has more Catholics than USA. People are struggling hard just to feed their families (about 50% of the people live below the poverty line) but their faith is strong so the least you could do for them is to have a good Christian attitude (stop being condescending and arrogant) and let them have a Mass they can fully understand.

Yes. Seems that people ignore or do not know that the Liturgy of the Church was done in the vernacular. It has always been done so in the Byzantine Churches. When the Latin Church changed from Greek to Latin they did so because Latin was the vernacular at the time.

When the Tridentine Mass was mandated for the whole Latin Church there was in indult for certain areas to celebrate it in the Vernacular so there has never been a time when the Mass was not done in the Vernacular. Latin was the norm but it was not the only language used.

Also, reading a missal before Mass does not mean that one knows what is being said during the Mass.

 

[netmilsmom]

thistle:

You are clearly one of the elitists in the West and probably have never attended a Mass in a third world country (where most Catholics are). I’m British but happen to live in the Philippines. There are NO missals in any of the churches here. You have no idea how poor (in financial terms) the people are and the Church is in a country like this, which incidentally has more Catholics than USA. People are struggling hard just to feed their families (about 50% of the people live below the poverty line) but their faith is strong so the least you could do for them is to have a good Christian attitude (stop being condescending and arrogant) and let them have a Mass they can fully understand.

I guess you have a problem with reading comprehension since you live in a third world country.
I’ll put it into all caps so you get it…
A UNIVERSAL INDULT DOES NOT MEAN ALL MASSES ARE IN LATIN. IT JUST MAKES IT AVAILABLE TO THOSE WHO WANT IT.

Geez, do you get it now?
And I think that you owe Msproule an apology for telling him he has a less than Christian attitude when it is YOU who do not grasp the concept of a Universal Indult.
If the people who are so poor they don’t have a missal to follow the TLM why would their priests offer it?
Use some common sense instead of spouting your poorly diguised Anti-American bigotry. After 124 posts you have no right to insult anyone.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Chalice:

There are potentially several reasons/concerns given the (arch)diocese:

1.) Not enough interest.

2.) Potential for devisivenss.

3.) Priests reluctant to celebrate the Tridentine.

4.) Difficulty in determining which parish(es) are allowed the Tridentine in order to best service the faithful of the (arch)diocese.

5.) Opening-up more even more potential for liturgical abuse.

6.) Fear of upsetting the status quo (a NON-issue in my book) and those that rule it.

All of them serious reasons which the bishops need to take into account, since they have far greater responsibility for the celebration of the Liturgy in their dioceses than we do.​

And there is -

1. The Revised Missal is the normative Missal for the Roman Rite and Church (with certain exceptions).

 

[Dr.Bombay]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I guess you have a problem with reading comprehension since you live in a third world country.
I’ll put it into all caps so you get it…
A UNIVERSAL INDULT DOES NOT MEAN ALL MASSES ARE IN LATIN. IT JUST MAKES IT AVAILABLE TO THOSE WHO WANT IT.

Geez, do you get it now?
And I think that you owe Msproule an apology for telling him he has a less than Christian attitude when it is YOU who do not grasp the concept of a Universal Indult.
If the people who are so poor they don’t have a missal to follow the TLM why would their priests offer it?
Use some common sense instead of spouting your poorly diguised Anti-American bigotry. After 124 posts you have no right to insult anyone.

Well said. :clapping:

Some of the responses on this thread amaze me. Such unabashed hatred for the Latin Mass is instructive. It reminds me of that jittery little creature from Lord of the Rings, the one that skittered around repeating, “My precious!” I can picture some of the anti-Latinites on this thread, cowering and clutching their ICEL Paul VI Missals screeching, “You can’ts have me precious. It’s my precious! MINE!”

And all this is just in response to a tiny internet rumor. I can imagine the howls of outrage and disgust if the Holy Father actually does issue this indult. We’ll see some people’s true colors then. My precious. :whacky:

 

[mgy100]

I’ll Say It A Third Time
It Is A Rumor.