Pope to make universal indult for the Old Mass

[netmilsmom]

stanley123:

What exactly would they be scared of?

Just as when Mother Angelica started EWTN and a pious NO came into our living rooms, the Bishops who are fighting a Universal may well be afraid that people would like it.

They might find that their flock is much more orthodox than they care to admit. There is tons of work to get a TLM together, however, I’m not sure that the Bishops understand that the market will make it or break it.

Let’s face it, we are a pretty knowledgable bunch. Many of us here might like it or might not but at least we know enough to form our opinions. Most Pete in the Pews want mass quick, fast and over in a hurry. By denying a Universal, we will never know truly whether this is not wanted. we can only guess.

 

[thistle]

ByzCath:

Yes. Seems that people ignore or do not know that the Liturgy of the Church was done in the vernacular. It has always been done so in the Byzantine Churches. When the Latin Church changed from Greek to Latin they did so because Latin was the vernacular at the time.

When the Tridentine Mass was mandated for the whole Latin Church there was in indult for certain areas to celebrate it in the Vernacular so there has never been a time when the Mass was not done in the Vernacular. Latin was the norm but it was not the only language used.

Also, reading a missal before Mass does not mean that one knows what is being said during the Mass.

Thank you for the balanced viewpoint.
I was somewhat taken aback by the comments made by two of the other posters on me. I have no objections to a Latin Mass if that’s what the priest and parisheners of a local church want. I was merely trying to point out to them that everyone should be able to understand what is being said at a Mass or how can they fully participate.
As for calling me an American bigot I’m speechless. If all my American friends read that they would laugh because they know the Filipino and the American people are the ones I love most.

However, Christ says I must be humble and not quick to anger so I apologise fully to netmil(name removed by moderator) and mgy100 and ask for their forgiveness.

 

[netmilsmom]

thistle:

However, Christ says I must be humble and not quick to anger so I apologise fully to netmil(name removed by moderator) and mgy100 and ask for their forgiveness.

You owe me nothing, you owe Msproule an apology.

 

[thistle]

thistle:

Thank you for the balanced viewpoint.
I was somewhat taken aback by the comments made by two of the other posters on me. I have no objections to a Latin Mass if that’s what the priest and parisheners of a local church want. I was merely trying to point out to them that everyone should be able to understand what is being said at a Mass or how can they fully participate.
As for calling me an American bigot I’m speechless. If all my American friends read that they would laugh because they know the Filipino and the American people are the ones I love most.

However, Christ says I must be humble and not quick to anger so I apologise fully to netmil(name removed by moderator) and mgy100 and ask for their forgiveness.

Its been pointed out I’ve apologised to the wrong people. Let me correct that and apologise to Msproule and ask for his/her forgiveness.

 

[James0235]

Dr. Bombay:

It reminds me of that jittery little creature from Lord of the Rings, the one that skittered around repeating, “My precious!” I can picture some of the anti-Latinites on this thread, cowering and clutching their ICEL Paul VI Missals screeching, “You can’ts have me precious. It’s my precious! MINE!”

This post just made my day. I take that back. It made my week.


James

 

[Kielbasi]

thistle writes

I have no objections to a Latin Mass if that’s what the priest and parisheners of a local church want. I was merely trying to point out to them that everyone should be able to understand what is being said at a Mass or how can they fully participate.

Your objection doesn’t have much merit, because you don’t understand the thought behind the Latin mass.

In the traditional Latin mass, the faithful stay silent, they participate fully but with their prayers, not with their voices. The movements and gestures of the priest are highly regulated, so that those who attended the latin mass were able to follow exactly how the mass was progressing by the position, and gestures as well as the words of the priest (even if they didn’t understand every word of the priest)

Missals held by the laity were a relatively recent innovation in the church, they weren’t printed until the 19th century from my understanding.

Vatican II and the subsequent reforms changed the entire paradigm of Catholic worship, where the people were suddenly given first just responses in the dialogue mass of the 20th century, to entire prayers to read aloud.

But this kind of novel vocal participation isn’t the only kind of full participation possible.

 

[thistle]

Kielbasi:

thistle writes

Your objection doesn’t have much merit, because you don’t understand the thought behind the Latin mass.

In the traditional Latin mass, the faithful stay silent, they participate fully but with their prayers, not with their voices. The movements and gestures of the priest are highly regulated, so that those who attended the latin mass were able to follow exactly how the mass was progressing by the position, and gestures as well as the words of the priest (even if they didn’t understand every word of the priest)

Missals held by the laity were a relatively recent innovation in the church, they weren’t printed until the 19th century from my understanding.

Vatican II and the subsequent reforms changed the entire paradigm of Catholic worship, where the people were suddenly given first just responses in the dialogue mass of the 20th century, to entire prayers to read aloud.

But this kind of novel vocal participation isn’t the only kind of full participation possible.

Thanks. May I ask if the Creed, Lord’s Prayer are not vocally prayed in a Latin Mass?

 

[Kielbasi]

Thanks. May I ask if the Creed, Lord’s Prayer are not vocally prayed in a Latin Mass?

They were prayed vocally by the priest, but not by the faithful.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Karl Keating has some interesting observations about the universal indult.

I wonder why so many in the Church have such a fear of an even, side by side comparison between the Traditional Latin Mass and the new Mass? Could it be because the new Mass, as it is commonly celebrated in the majority of American parishes, will be found lacking?

 

[thistle]

Kielbasi:

They were prayed vocally by the priest, but not by the faithful.

Thanks. My questions are genuine as I’ve never attended a Latin Mass. I guess the Homily then would be the only non-Latin part of the Mass?

 

[Kielbasi]

Thanks. My questions are genuine as I’ve never attended a Latin Mass. I guess the Homily then would be the only non-Latin part of the Mass?

Yes, although the priest could re-read the epistle and gospel in the vernacular before the announcements and the homily, and usually did. Although not usually on Palm Sunday.

 

[twiztedseraph]

Dr. Bombay:

Well said. :clapping:

Some of the responses on this thread amaze me. Such unabashed hatred for the Latin Mass is instructive. It reminds me of that jittery little creature from Lord of the Rings, the one that skittered around repeating, “My precious!” I can picture some of the anti-Latinites on this thread, cowering and clutching their ICEL Paul VI Missals screeching, “You can’ts have me precious. It’s my precious! MINE!”

And all this is just in response to a tiny internet rumor. I can imagine the howls of outrage and disgust if the Holy Father actually does issue this indult. We’ll see some people’s true colors then. My precious. :whacky:

1. Sorry to ask but whats your background (ethnic) from your name I’d say your Indian, just asking 'cause my priest is…
   2.your both funny and smart. Keep up the good work.

 

[msproule]

thistle:

You are clearly one of the elitists in the West and probably have never attended a Mass in a third world country (where most Catholics are).

If I am elitist by virtue of the fact that I live above the poverty line in the U.S., then you are correct. If I seem condescending and arrogant, then I offer my apologies to all I may have offended.

It is true that I have never been blessed enough to attend Mass in such a place as the Philippines. I am convinced that the faith of most who live there exceed my own, for even I know that faith itself does not proceed from the trappings of earthly wealth.

But my point, which I think others have already reiterated, is that the Latin Mass should be available to those who desire it. Like you, I have never even been to a Mass celebrated according to the 1962 Missal. Furthermore, I have been to only one Mass celebrated in Latin according to the current Missal.

I appreciate your apology, but truly it is unnecessary.

 

[msproule]

ByzCath:

Yes. Seems that people ignore or do not know that the Liturgy of the Church was done in the vernacular. It has always been done so in the Byzantine Churches.

I have an honest question because I have never attended a Byzantine (or other Eastern) Liturgy: Because the Eastern Churches are mostly distinguished by ethnicity and/or geography, and even in the U.S. many of the faithful may be speakers of the native tongue and not English, what language is used for the liturgy in the U.S.?

Also, reading a missal before Mass does not mean that one knows what is being said during the Mass.

Taken literally, what I wrote suggested only taking a few minutes to peruse the missal before Mass, like cramming for a final exam. However, what I meant was to study and contemplate the missal, with plenty of time for adequate preparation and meditation. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[thistle]

msproule:

If I am elitist by virtue of the fact that I live above the poverty line in the U.S., then you are correct. If I seem condescending and arrogant, then I offer my apologies to all I may have offended.

It is true that I have never been blessed enough to attend Mass in such a place as the Philippines. I am convinced that the faith of most who live there exceed my own, for even I know that faith itself does not proceed from the trappings of earthly wealth.

But my point, which I think others have already reiterated, is that the Latin Mass should be available to those who desire it. Like you, I have never even been to a Mass celebrated according to the 1962 Missal. Furthermore, I have been to only one Mass celebrated in Latin according to the current Missal.

I appreciate your apology, but truly it is unnecessary.

Thank you. Let’s forgive and forget. I know sometimes I let my mouth get the better of me. My intention is good but I don’t always say things in the most appropriate way. I talked to my wife afterwards and she scolded me too. I watched Father Dubay on EWTN earlier and he said it okay to disagree with someone but it must be done in a pleasant way so I hope that sticks in my head.
I will be going to Saturday Confession and I hope I get a big penance.

 

[stanley123]

Kielbasi:

In the traditional Latin mass, the faithful stay silent, they participate fully but with their prayers, not with their voices. .

Not always. There is the dialogue Mass (TLM), where the faithful are allowed to give the responses in Latin.

 

[SummaTheo]

stanley123:

Not always. There is the dialogue Mass (TLM), where the faithful are allowed to give the responses in Latin.

Thats a new thing though. Never have attended a dialogue TLM.

 

[Ham1]

“My precious!” I can picture some of the anti-Latinites on this thread, cowering and clutching their ICEL Paul VI Missals screeching, “You can’ts have me precious. It’s my precious! MINE!”

Funny…but this is kind of the way the Latin Mass Only folks tend to act. Your characterization is really quite reversed.

After all, they tend to be far more attached to a specific liturgy than the rest of us. They seem to spend much of their time talking about the “deficiencies” of the Mass and the glories of the old Mass. Aside from that, a lot of them also look like Gollum.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Ham1:

Funny…but this is kind of the way the Latin Mass Only folks tend to act. Your characterization is really quite reversed.

After all, they tend to be far more attached to a specific liturgy than the rest of us. They seem to spend much of their time talking about the “deficiencies” of the Mass and the glories of the old Mass. Aside from that, a lot of them also look like Gollum.

Nah, I think I’ve captured the essence of the English-only Mass fanatics perfectly, if I do say so myself. They remind me of the Puritans who were always in a dither because they knew in their hearts that somewhere, somebody was having a good time. These people can’t be happy with their English Mass. No, they’re miserable because they know somewhere, somebody is attending a Latin Mass.

No one’s going to take your English Mass away from ya. Now, stop worrying about Latin and pay attention. A stranger wants to hold your hand and say the Our Father. :tsktsk:

 

[Kielbasi]

Not always. There is the dialogue Mass (TLM), where the faithful are allowed to give the responses in Latin.

That’s true, but the dialogue mass is a 20th century innovation, and was never the norm everywhere.

And the dialogue mass only had the faithful vocalize some short responses like *et cum spiritu tuo. *Its not quite the same as the people reciting the *credo *or gloria as they do in the novus ordo mass.

Its still a different paradigm.