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Podo2005
Guest
Ok Then I’m listening Iohannes… Could you please direct me to this specific passage? I mean without that defence, the reason for facing east isn’t accurate.
Thanks
Podo
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Thanks
Podo
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thistle
Guest
I found an article on The Mass and Facing East on www.ad2000.com.au/articles/1998/feb1998p20_575.htl
It includes what the prophet Ezechiel said:
The major prophet Ezechiel announces: “And behold the glory of the God of Israel came in by the way of the east … And the majesty of the Lord went into the temple by the way of the gate that looked to the east. And the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court, and behold the house was filled with the glory of the Lord” (ch 43).
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Podo2005
Guest
So do I have more faith in the church. Quoting from a priest I know: “Without us, God won’t” which explains that without us (the church) God can’t pass his laws. God works through us and if he wants something done, something will be done. Putting that into perspective makes the Church infalliable. God doesn’t abandon us when Liberals say " WE WANT CLOWN,SECULAR MASSES WITHOUT ANY KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT WE ARE DOING"
And even people that think VATICAN II is wrong, it isn’t. God wanted that council, God wanted the Novus Ordo mass( THE real, reverent,joyful celebration form ). And if he wants an universal indult then there will be that indult.
I apologize if I offended certain people( like the fact that I called it having the priest’s back to you, which I still believe is the case…
) but those things are my opinion and I am entitled to it.Podo
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Depends on the parish and its makeup.
Here in Rochester, NY, we have two Ukrainian Greek Catholic parishes and one Melkite Greek Catholic parish.
As Rochester has a large Ukrainian immigrant community both of the Ukrainian parishes have 3 Divine Liturgies in Ukrainian and one in English.
The Melkite parish, which also has a sizeable immigrant community, has one Divine Liturgy (more traditional) and it is mostly in English. Some of the responses to the litanies are in Greek or Arabic and the Trisagion is done in English/Greek/Arabic.
In the Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Church, it seems that most Liturgies are in English with some responses in Church Slavonic. You will not find a full Church Slavonic Liturgy and if you do it is the exception.
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netmilsmom
Guest
I don’t know why you think that everyone who supports the Universal Indult thinks the NO is wrong.So do I have more faith in the church. Quoting from a priest I know: “Without us, God won’t” which explains that without us (the church) God can’t pass his laws. God works through us and if he wants something done, something will be done. Putting that into perspective makes the Church infalliable. God doesn’t abandon us when Liberals say " WE WANT CLOWN,SECULAR MASSES WITHOUT ANY KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT WE ARE DOING"
And even people that think VATICAN II is wrong, it isn’t. God wanted that council, God wanted the Novus Ordo mass( THE real, reverent,joyful celebration form ). And if he wants an universal indult then there will be that indult.
I apologize if I offended certain people( like the fact that I called it having the priest’s back to you, which I still believe is the case…
Podo
I love my NO mass and have seen a TLM once. I don’t want it for me but I want it for anyone who does.
You have a right to your opinion but it IS unfair that we have happy, Charistmatic or clown masses and the TLM is banned.
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msproule
Guest
How amusing that you demand unmistakable proof, yet you yourself never offer any that is of merit!
I know you directed this challenge to Iohannes but I feel compelled to respond. While I do not know of a specific scriptural passage that might apply (although you will find the phrase in a Latin Vulgate translation of, for example, Ezekiel 47), it is known that the practice of facing ad orientem goes back to Apostolic times.
Here is a link to an interview with our Holy Father when he was known as Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect for the CDF. An excerpt:
Interviewer: And that sense of sacrifice and worship that you’ve talked about so eloquently, how do you see that being restored concretely? Will we see a return to the ad orientem posture, facing the East, the priest facing away from the people during the Canon?
**Cardinal:**Versus orientem, I would say could be a help because it is really a tradition from the Apostolic time, and it’s not only a norm, but it’s an expression also of the cosmical dimension and of the historical dimension of the liturgy. We are celebrating with the cosmos, with the world. It’s the direction of the future of the world, of our history represented in the sun and in the cosmical realities. I think today this new discovering of our relation with the created world can be understood also from the people, better than perhaps 20 years ago. And also, it’s a common direction – priest and people are in common oriented to the Lord. So, I think it could be a help. Always external gestures are not simply a remedy in itself, but could be a help because it’s a very classical interpretation of what is the direction of the liturgy.
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msproule
Guest
Thanks, ByzCath! I thought the “schedule” of Liturgies might resemble what you explained.
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palmas85
Guest
Dr. Bombay:
I want to hear the consecration prayers.
I want to participate fully, and I won’t be able to.
I want to receive under both species
I want to understand everything going on at all times.
I don’t want to use a missal
I don’t want to learn Latin
I want contemporary music dammit
I want to receive in the hand not on the tongue
These are the main objections that I hear over and over and over, and over and over and over again…
What really stikes me though is the complete and utter hatred that some apparently feel for the Traditional Mass. It is almost as if the spirit of Martin Luther is walking amongst us.
Of course he was called merely a seeker of truth on one of these forums once, so you never know what the real motivation of some people may be…
I have often wondered the same thing. Maybe it is my lack of intelligence or something but the objections that I have heard just don’t seem to really be based on much.Karl Keating has some interesting observations about the universal indult.
I wonder why so many in the Church have such a fear of an even, side by side comparison between the Traditional Latin Mass and the new Mass? Could it be because the new Mass, as it is commonly celebrated in the majority of American parishes, will be found lacking?
I want to hear the consecration prayers.
I want to participate fully, and I won’t be able to.
I want to receive under both species
I want to understand everything going on at all times.
I don’t want to use a missal
I don’t want to learn Latin
I want contemporary music dammit
I want to receive in the hand not on the tongue
These are the main objections that I hear over and over and over, and over and over and over again…
What really stikes me though is the complete and utter hatred that some apparently feel for the Traditional Mass. It is almost as if the spirit of Martin Luther is walking amongst us.
Of course he was called merely a seeker of truth on one of these forums once, so you never know what the real motivation of some people may be…
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palmas85
Guest
I
I hate to burst your bubble. I don’t know where in the Philippines you are, or which language you are hearing. The Philippines has somewhere over 700 dialects. Many Filipinos don’t speak or at understand Tagalog, Visayan, Ilocano or English. The mass in the Philippines is generally done in one of those languages, so they don’t really understand everything anyway except perhaps in the cities. In the Province, depending on which one and where the Priest is from, they may understand some, a little or none at all.
The older people, most of whom learned at least some Latin in catechism prior to Vatican II, could at least follow along by rote if nothing else. Most of the churches do have Missals and missalettes as well. Some of the mission churches may not have them, but for them often it is by choice. Many of them practice what could bst be described as Liberation Theology.
People come to Mass clean and as presentable as possible given the poverty they live in. They are much less interested in the Mass being relevent to their lives than they are interested in worshiping God. You don’t see the western innovations down there do you, clown masses etc. ? Wonder why? Maybe the Filipino by and large is more reverent than most. Maybe he accepts the truth that God matters most of all.
And before you say anything, my whole family is Filipino, both here and the Philippines. Have a good day.
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netmilsmom
Guest
And what I find so ironic is that the people with those objections can walk into any Catholic Community and get just what they want.
Those who want something traditional (be it the TLM or a pious NO) are hard pressed to find it.
Unity is only unity if it is done their way.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
I find it odd how people speak of being “traditional” when they ignore the traditions of the Church in regards to the chaning of the Discipline of the Mass. After all there was a time when the TLM was the Novus Ordo of the Church and some places it was forced upon the people and their “traditional” form of the Mass was suppressed.
Which is the exact same argument that can be made against those who want the TLM.
I find it odd how people speak of being “traditional” when they ignore the traditions of the Church in regards to the chaning of the Discipline of the Mass. After all there was a time when the TLM was the Novus Ordo of the Church and some places it was forced upon the people and their “traditional” form of the Mass was suppressed.
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JNB
Guest
A lie repeated enough times becomes the truth in the eyes of too many people. I am sure people have told you this before, yet you ignore facts. The liturgy of the church in the west before Trent, while it had many different liturgical uses, basically had the same canon, they all used Latin with the exception of a liturgical use in what is now Croatia, the priests all faced Ad Orientem during the mass, the manner that the parish was designed was basically the same with the sanctuary being either divided from the nave using either altar rails or a full on rood iron screen. The liturgical use in Rome at the time is the use that became the standard for the liturgy in the West, and liturgical uses that were over 200 years old at the time at the time were allowed to remain in use. The biggest change anyone saw at the time in the 1500s and 1600s was some changes in the text of the mass.
None of the liturguical uses before Trent had the “innovations” that have been forced on the laity today, such as EMHCs, altar girls, lay lectors, secular looking parishes and so on. A very rotten shame is that traditional leaning Catholics who are perfectly happy with a traditional leaning Novus Ordo can have their liturgy and parish torn apart at the whim of a Pastor or Bishop, such as the example of St Marys by the Sea parish in Orange county, where the laity now have had altar girls and EMHCs forced upon them.
Again, I have asked y ou this before ByzCath, but I do not know what you have agaisnt Tradition in the West, and as I and others have said, you really have no room to speak because you are a Byzantine Rite Catholic who has the LUXURY of having their liturgy haveing no real changes and innovations being forced upon you. I find it quite hypocritical.
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JNB
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
It is sad that so many, including many clergy despise anything that resembles tradition, even if it uses the current missal and the mass being mostly in the vernacular. But it is ironic that the parishes that use the current missal that are most sucessful in vocations, in terms of both priestly vocations and those for female religous life are those that have pulled their liturgy in the most traditional direction possible. I know your parish in the Detroit area has 10 seminarians, and I understand it has less than 1000 familes(Though what I understand many of those familes have 4-6 children a peice), while the one I attend, while only having 1500 parishoners, has 4 seminarians associated with it.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Yes that is true, the part about repeated lies, which seems to have worked its wonders with you and others here.
So I see I am dealing with that, I will just move on.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
I would add on final thought on this matter.
This guess by a lay person who is not involved with the Vatican in any way that the Holy Father will grant a universal (which is a mis-nomer as it will only be for the Latin Church) Indult (which is would not be an indult per say but a change in the law to free a priest from obedience to his bishop) at the up coming synod just seems odd.
It seems odd when Eastern Bishops are being invited to the synod in question. See this thread, Melkite Bishop Goes to Synod.
Why would the Holy Father invited eastern bishops to a synod where he was going to deal with a purely western issue?
Now stranger things have occured but I find this one highly unlikely for two reasons. 1) Eastern bishops are going to be at the synod to discuss key aspects of Catholic life and 2) the source of this guess seems unreliable.
This guess by a lay person who is not involved with the Vatican in any way that the Holy Father will grant a universal (which is a mis-nomer as it will only be for the Latin Church) Indult (which is would not be an indult per say but a change in the law to free a priest from obedience to his bishop) at the up coming synod just seems odd.
It seems odd when Eastern Bishops are being invited to the synod in question. See this thread, Melkite Bishop Goes to Synod.
Why would the Holy Father invited eastern bishops to a synod where he was going to deal with a purely western issue?
Now stranger things have occured but I find this one highly unlikely for two reasons. 1) Eastern bishops are going to be at the synod to discuss key aspects of Catholic life and 2) the source of this guess seems unreliable.
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SouthCoast
Guest
Hi there! I’m also in the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston. Do you have any idea what co-adjuctor Archbishop DiNardo’s opinion is in this matter? I know that he will be taking over as Archbishop of the diocese very soon. In my opinion our current Archbishop Joseph Fiorenza is a bitter old man that desperately needs to retire.
I have heard both men speak in person within the past 6 months. I’ve seen Archbishop DiNardo 4 times in person this year. He seems like someone with solid beliefs. He comes from an area that is heavily Eastern Catholic (Pittsburg) and has a lot of respect for their traditions as well. I have high hopes…
If you’ve heard anything, feel free to pass it on
-Michael
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Iohannes
Guest
The majority of the people who attend the Traditional Latin Mass in my area are Filipinos. They must be elitist too!!!
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Iohannes
Guest
Also note, if the Tridentine Mass is in “error” facing east, then ByzCath’s Divine Liturgy is also in “error” too. In the Byzantine Catholic Church, the priest faces East or what podo says “back to the people”.
Thanks for all who helped me find the scriptural passage and supported me for the defense of Ad Orientem the NORM for all liturgies.
Thanks for all who helped me find the scriptural passage and supported me for the defense of Ad Orientem the NORM for all liturgies.
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tuopaolo
Guest
Iohannes said:
This statement – the one you quote – reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the Mass.
The Mass is not about a priest and the people having a good time together.
The Mass is not about the priest and the people bonding together and singing Kumbiya.
The Mass is not about the priest and the people interacting with each other.
The Mass is not about the priest and people having an uplifting experience or any kind of experience at all.
The Mass is not about what you “get out of it”
The Mass is primarily about the objective worship of God, and together with it the remembrance of the saints and the works that God has wrought throughout salvation history especially in Christ Jesus, a remembrance that makes these realities present and glorifies our Father.
It is an objective reality.
Even if someone should go to Mass and by some chance (perhaps some sleep disorder) fall asleep through the entire Mass, provided that person went to Mass with the proper intention and disposition, that person even without receiving Holy Communion and even without “experiencing” anything, “interacting” with any people, or “getting anything out of it” would still receive abundant graces from the sacrifice of the Mass and all the prayers of the Mass for God rewards that person’s heart and looks kindly upon the sacrifice offered by his Son and by the priest and the Church.
Consolations received are to be received with gratitude. But true consolations direct us God-ward, Heaven-ward. And so to speak of the priest facing or not facing the people betrays a defect in one’s understanding not only of the Mass, but of the fundamental supernatural vocation of man who was created to know, love and serve God in this life and be happy with Him forever in the next, together with the glorious virgin mother, St Joseph, St Mary Magdalene and all the hosts of angels and saints God has deigned to raise to the dignity of sons of God.
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palmas85
Guest
Many Filipinos much prefer the Traditional Mass because of the reverence in it.The majority of the people who attend the Traditional Latin Mass in my area are Filipinos. They must be elitist too!!!
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