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JNB
Guest
The ball is in your court. Care to dispute any of the facts I put down here, or is it that you cant?
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mgy100
Guest
JNB, the Ruthenians have had their Liturgy changed. It has been shortened over the years. The Byzantine Churches have seen their share of changes too.
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James0235
Guest
Changed? Yes. But that is not even remotely similar to what happened in the Latin Church.
“What happened after the Council was something else entirely: in the place of the liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries and replaced it, as in a manufacturing process, with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product.”
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JNB
Guest
The changes are minor, a shortening of texts, maybe some minor simplifications of rubrics. As James said, the changes are NOTHING compared to what took place in the Latin Rite.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Actually the priest only faces East when the Church is built in the proper manner. One of the local Ukrainian Catholic Churches here the priest faces North and in the other he faces West.
But it is true that the priest always faces the same way as the congregation.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
I would, but you provided no facts in your statement.
You said,
The first part is mostly unprovable. Each Diocese had their own Missal. To prove that the canon was “basically” the same we would have to have access to all of the Missals, which we do not so we can not know this for sure.
The Indults for use of the vernacular were for more than just one place, from what I have seen it covered Albania and there were a couple of others (I don’t have the book at hand that covers this and I do not really want to take the time to find it).
As for the last part, there is nothing stopping Ad Orientem today.
Again, discipline can and does change.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
This shows a complete misunderstanding of the Byzantine tradition.
These changes are not minor in any way.
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stanley123
Guest
There is in our area a Ruthenian Byzantine rite Catholic Church. I have found that in that particular Church in our area, there are actually found a certain number of former Catholics from the RCC Latin rite who do not disguise their displeasure with the changes in the RCC. I would say that they talk very much like the Traditional Catholics in the latin rite who argue for a return to the preVatican II Church. And also a deacon and a priest there expressed similar opinions. Rather than fight the changes in the western RCC, they simply moved to the Byzantine rite. So, I agree with your statements on this.
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Kielbasi
Guest
They are almost undoubtably not *former Latin Rite Catholics, *but current Latin Rite Catholics who are just attending the local Greek Catholic church.
Few would bother to officially change rites, when one can attend the Eastern rite without doing so. Changing rites requires the permission of both bishops, and its sort of pointless unless one wanted ordination or to join a religious order of the receiving rite.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
This is sad.JNB:
There is in our area a Ruthenian Byzantine rite Catholic Church. I have found that in that particular Church in our area, there are actually found a certain number of former Catholics from the RCC Latin rite who do not disguise their displeasure with the changes in the RCC. I would say that they talk very much like the Traditional Catholics in the latin rite who argue for a return to the preVatican II Church. And also a deacon and a priest there expressed similar opinions. Rather than fight the changes in the western RCC, they simply moved to the Byzantine rite. So, I agree with your statements on this.
Our Church should not be used in this manner but I can understand it. One should love the Liturgy and traditions of a Church not hate those of another, when one is chosing which Church to attend.
I love all the Traditions of the Church equally, which is why I have no problem in entering formation in a Latin Church religious order.
JNB,
I do not understand why you think I am against Tradition in the West.
I just think that the Tradition of following the disciplines as laid out by the Holy Father trump the tradition of holding certain disciplines above that.
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JNB
Guest
I provided you facts, that while there were variations, the mass was largely the same from diocese to diocese, with some minor differences. To most people , they could not tell t he difference between a Sarum rite mass, a Dominican Rite Mass, an Ambrosian rite mass or a Roman Rite mass unless they had somwhat of a hobby in liturgy. The fact taht the various rites that did remain after Trent did have largely the same canon supports the fact that the church by Trent mostly, if not exclusively, used the Roman Canon.
What took place after Trent amounted to minor tweaks and changes, not a wholesale change in the entire mass after Vatican II.
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JNB
Guest
If they do not turn the priest around, introduce EMHCs and altar girls, take down the icons and remodel the parish into somthing utilitarian, along with horrible hymns, then the upcoming changes will be minor.
As for you being against Tradition, your attitude in these threads speaks volumes.
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TNT
Guest
Pope to make universal indult for the Old Mass??
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(Nor should it! )
It would lose its protection of only dedicated priests that celebrate it out of pure love for it. If it was universal, any “priest”, heretic or not, who was in love with novelty would rape it. The bishops would do nothing, just as they do nothing now in the NOM. Some would even encourage it’s abuse (in private) out of hatred.
Those TLM advocates that want universal TLM approval, “know not what they do”.
“Do not give to ______ that which is Holy”. You’ll rue the day you did it.
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Code:
** Ain't gonna happen...PERIOD.**(Nor should it! )
It would lose its protection of only dedicated priests that celebrate it out of pure love for it. If it was universal, any “priest”, heretic or not, who was in love with novelty would rape it. The bishops would do nothing, just as they do nothing now in the NOM. Some would even encourage it’s abuse (in private) out of hatred.
Those TLM advocates that want universal TLM approval, “know not what they do”.
“Do not give to ______ that which is Holy”. You’ll rue the day you did it.
**
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Podo2005
Guest
I read that passage and it still doesn’t say that we should face east to serve the Lord! The Lord is present everywhere! And you are wrong because Ad Orientem isn’t the norm in the Novus ordo mass( The NORM of the Roman Catholic Church) The Priest faces the people (versus populum).
And to all those who think that it’s not FAIR that there isn’t a universal indult… You obviously don’t trust the teachings of the Church(Let alone the Lord) do you? Or is it because you are afraid of change? Change can be a very effective thing and is neccesary when a council goes overboard…
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Podo2005
Guest
Has Pope Benedict changed the position yet? No. Right now in the Novus Ordo mass( the norm) the priest faces versus populum.How amusing that you demand unmistakable proof, yet you yourself never offer any that is of merit!
I know you directed this challenge to Iohannes but I feel compelled to respond. While I do not know of a specific scriptural passage that might apply (although you will find the phrase in a Latin Vulgate translation of, for example, Ezekiel 47), it is known that the practice of facing ad orientem goes back to Apostolic times.
Here is a link to an interview with our Holy Father when he was known as Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect for the CDF. An excerpt:
Interviewer: And that sense of sacrifice and worship that you’ve talked about so eloquently, how do you see that being restored concretely? Will we see a return to the ad orientem posture, facing the East, the priest facing away from the people during the Canon?
**Cardinal:**Versus orientem, I would say could be a help because it is really a tradition from the Apostolic time, and it’s not only a norm, but it’s an expression also of the cosmical dimension and of the historical dimension of the liturgy. We are celebrating with the cosmos, with the world. It’s the direction of the future of the world, of our history represented in the sun and in the cosmical realities. I think today this new discovering of our relation with the created world can be understood also from the people, better than perhaps 20 years ago. And also, it’s a common direction – priest and people are in common oriented to the Lord. So, I think it could be a help. Always external gestures are not simply a remedy in itself, but could be a help because it’s a very classical interpretation of what is the direction of the liturgy.
It’s also funny you accuse me of offering information of no merit, yet it’s the opposite.
Podo
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stanley123
Guest
Would that include the deacon also, who is at the altar assisting in the Byzantine Liturgy? Generally, then you say that a deacon in the Byzantine Church could be a Latin rite Catholic? I didn’t know about this one. I know he said that he was horrified with the changes in his Latin rite Church and has been with the Byzantine Church for several years, I would guess about twenty years or so.
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stanley123
Guest
The deacon (I am guessing that he is a deacon. I think he is with some religious order of some sort, and I saw that he assists the priest) apparently thought it was OK for him to change over to the Byzantine rite because he did not appreciate the changes (or abuses?) of the liturgy in the West. And in fact, I met also a Byzantine priest and an Eastern Orthodox priest who said that they were originally Western Roman Catholics but switched over to the Eastern Church because of the changes (or would it be abuses, I am not sure what term to use here) introduced after Vatican II.
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Legatus
Guest
Mt19:26:
And this is not entirely unreasonable. Unless the Tridentine Mass is to be forced on everyone the way the Novus Ordo Mass was there could be real problems with a pastor imposing the Tridentine Rite and then, following the clergy transfers, the next pastor imposing the Novus Ordo. There would have to be some way of bringing order about.
But there is a new generation of bishops coming on line. The bishops now retiring were involved in the change to the New rite and tend to have an emotional interest in retaining it. This would be less true with the bishops that are coming along. Already there is evidence of this and bishops also have a way of knowing which way the wind is blowing. If the Pope gave a universal Indult to all priests of the Lain Rite to use the Tridentine Rite it would send a clear message to the bishops, the priests and perhaps especially, the laity that this rite is to be respected and made readily available.Things wouldn’t change overnight but more and more, people might have the chance that was denied them in 1969 i.e. the chance to choose.
The Indult could be given to all priests but the bishop could presumably not allow it to be exercised in any or all of the churches of his diocese. For example the bishop can (and normally would) forbid all the Masses in a Latin Rite parish from being celebratred in the Armenian Rite even by a duly authorised Armenian priest.
And this is not entirely unreasonable. Unless the Tridentine Mass is to be forced on everyone the way the Novus Ordo Mass was there could be real problems with a pastor imposing the Tridentine Rite and then, following the clergy transfers, the next pastor imposing the Novus Ordo. There would have to be some way of bringing order about.
But there is a new generation of bishops coming on line. The bishops now retiring were involved in the change to the New rite and tend to have an emotional interest in retaining it. This would be less true with the bishops that are coming along. Already there is evidence of this and bishops also have a way of knowing which way the wind is blowing. If the Pope gave a universal Indult to all priests of the Lain Rite to use the Tridentine Rite it would send a clear message to the bishops, the priests and perhaps especially, the laity that this rite is to be respected and made readily available.Things wouldn’t change overnight but more and more, people might have the chance that was denied them in 1969 i.e. the chance to choose.
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msproule
Guest
He likely will not “change the position”. Technically, there is nothing to change because…
…versus Orientem is equally licit, even in the Normative Mass. But I would not be surprised if we see more priests turning versus Orientem in the not-too-distant future. This is likely even if no universal indult is granted.
I said you never offer proof. Please do not twist my words.
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netmilsmom
Guest
I’m sorry is the pink word a typo? If not, would you please explain it.
I am not a TLM person.
I am a “offer what EVERYONE wants” or “offer only one Mass” person.
First, if we can have Charismatic masses, why not the TLM?
Second, I don’t understand why you are fighting so hard in this. Aren’t you of an Eastern Rite?
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