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irishpatrick
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God’s love is unconditional, yet salvation is not.
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Brendan
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Unfortunately, the Pope’s words are still problematic in that regard
The statement still carries the implication that being embraced and undeservedly loved by Christ is contingent on them taking the action of engaging in charitable works of Mercy.
While it is quite true that their salvation can depend upon acts of Mercy, but being undeservedly loved by Christ is the Nature of God Himself. We do not merit it with our acts.
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Brendan
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I know, that is why I am wondering about the Pope’s comment. He speaks of God’s love, not of Salvic grace.
If the Holy Father had stated
I would have no issues, but the statement makes it seem as if the wealthy can only be loved and embraced if they engage in acts of Mercy.
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irishpatrick
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I am not sure what your issue is. We are all sinners and none of us “deserve” God’s love. God offers us His love as a gift, yet how can we ever say we deserve His Love?
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Brendan
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We do not deserve it, none of us. I think we agree then, that the " “proud”, the “powerful” and the “wealthy” spoken of in the Magnificat " are already “embraced and undeservedly loved by the crucified Lord who died and rose for them”.
They (and all of us) do not deserve it, but His love is freely given to all without exception.
That is NOT what the Pope is saying though.
The Pope is stating that such love is only gained for the wealthy by actions, by following a particular path.
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irishpatrick
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It seems to me the Pope is couching his comments around the subject of salvation, and not about God’s Love.
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Brendan
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That is what I THOUGHT it might be, based on the article, that the Pope was speaking about salvation, not love, and that author misrepresented it; but the actual quote was clearly about Christ’s love.
Now I know it is not a magisterial statement, but with the training that the Pope has, he should not slip up like that. A statement like the Pope made would earn a student a big red ‘X’ on any high school level theology exam.
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irishpatrick
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I’m not seeing it that way. Here’s the related excerpt:That is what I THOUGHT it might be, based on the article, that the Pope was speaking about salvation, not love, and that author misrepresented it; but the actual quote was clearly about Christ’s love.
Now I know it is not a magisterial statement, but with the training that the Pope has, he should not slip up like that. A statement like the Pope made would earn a student a big red ‘X’ on any high school level theology exam.
*Yet the danger always remains that by a constant refusal to open the doors of their hearts to Christ who knocks on them in the poor, the proud, rich and powerful will end up condemning themselves and plunging into the eternal abyss of solitude which is Hell. The pointed words of Abraham apply to them and to all of us: “They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them” (Lk 16:29). Such attentive listening will best prepare us to celebrate the final victory over sin and death of the Bridegroom, now risen, who desires to purify his Betrothed in expectation of his coming. *
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graciew
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Canticle of Mary: The Magnificat
My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord, my spirit rejoices in God my savior, for He has looked with favor on His lowly servant. / From this day all generations will call me blessed: the Almighty has done great things for me, and holy is His Name. / He has mercy on those who fear Him in every generation. / He has shown the strength of His arm, He has scattered the proud in their conceit. / He has cast down the mighty from their thrones and has lifted up the lowly. / He has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich He has sent away empty. / He has come to the help of His servant Israel, for He has remembered His promise of mercy, the promise He made to our fathers, to Abraham and His children for ever. / Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, / as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen.
My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord, my spirit rejoices in God my savior, for He has looked with favor on His lowly servant. / From this day all generations will call me blessed: the Almighty has done great things for me, and holy is His Name. / He has mercy on those who fear Him in every generation. / He has shown the strength of His arm, He has scattered the proud in their conceit. / He has cast down the mighty from their thrones and has lifted up the lowly. / He has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich He has sent away empty. / He has come to the help of His servant Israel, for He has remembered His promise of mercy, the promise He made to our fathers, to Abraham and His children for ever. / Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, / as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen.
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LongingSoul
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That’s where you seem to me to be missing the point. Trying to make it a theology lesson.That is what I THOUGHT it might be, based on the article, that the Pope was speaking about salvation, not love, and that author misrepresented it; but the actual quote was clearly about Christ’s love.
Now I know it is not a magisterial statement, but with the training that the Pope has, he should not slip up like that. A statement like the Pope made would earn a student a big red ‘X’ on any high school level theology exam.
Pope Francis is talking here and now on the ground sort of stuff. He calls it ‘existential’ alienation. As graciew posted above, the Magnificat is a complete expression of a living love here and now. Mary having that experience of her lowliness. Like the Prodigal son who came to be embraced and undeservedly loved by his Father. Of course his father always loved him, but then when talking about life on the ground, he came to be embraced and ‘undeservedly’ loved by returning in humility.
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irishpatrick
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Very well said. And the prodigal could not (again) experience that love unless he turned back to his father. God’s love is always there for us, yet He will not make us accept it, and He never forces us to turn back to Him.
Jesus said, “If you love me, keep my commands.” God commands us too help the poor, and those who have received much, from them much is expected. I do not believe that the Pope was condemning any single person–he was merely speaking the Gospel truth that all people seeking God’s love and salvation must at least try to help the poor and needy.
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Brendan
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And the Prodigal Son was always loved, undeservedly. It was not required that he return in order to be loved. Which is my point.
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LongingSoul
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No but the prodigal son didn’t *experience *any of that until he returned home in humility. Pope Francis indicated in the earlier sentence that he was talking about ‘existential’ alienation. Do you see that you can read the sentence about being embraced and undeservedly loved as a statement of theology or as an existential experience?
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Brendan
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If it is meant to be a statement about God, or our interaction with God, by definition, it is a statement of theology.
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LongingSoul
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Brendan, history teaches me the fruitlessness of engaging in your word games. If you can dismiss this wonderful lenten message by the Pope by insisting that he is theologically unsound… you’ll have wasted a wonderful Lenten opportunity for conversion in this Jubilee year. Oneofthewomen kindly posted the whole document link before but here it is again if you want to read it.
w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/messages/lent/documents/papa-francesco_20151004_messaggio-quaresima2016.html
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Maximilan_Kolbe
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In fairness, words DO matter, if we are to truly suck the marrow out of what we are being fed.
Now, we cannot parse words from the whole of a message unless we seek to strip away the overall context, but I don’t believe Brendan as doing that in this case. It would seem to be a honest search for the clarity of what we are being told, because the Holy Father’s words do have meaning for us, and we seek it (most of us anyway).
You can’t just encourage people to dismiss certain lines and say “just take the nice pretty paragraphs as a whole and enjoy the gist.” That ultimately becomes the problem with many of these exhortations. I think I get the tenor, spirit, and overall message, and then you hit a spot and say “wait, what? Since when?”
Most people who read these homilies, speeches, and the like with a fine tooth comb do so to truly gleen what they can for their own nourishment. I am sure there are some playing “gotcha” games with Bishops, Cardinals, or the Holy Father, but that is too tedious an exercise for the insincere to partake of en masse. If I am going to read through an encyclical, it isn’t going to be so I can find a spot I think is “wrong.”
I am sure it has happened at some point, but I have no recent memories of it. I am not sure why there is a difference in tone when it come to the “rich” (whoever the “rich” are). We are called to meet people where they are including the rich (who have not expeirenced enough of Christ’s glory to be imbued with a sense of true selfleness), the lapsed Catholic (who for a number of reasons have lost their faith), the disenfranchised Christian (who lacks an appreciation of Christ’s love), the homosexual or adulterer (whose struggles with inclinations have clouded their minds and hearts and Christ’s call for them), or whomever.
The difference in the Pope’s approach and tone to certain people is strident and noticeable (and perhaps intended, though I don’t know what that intent is), but it doesn’t bother me.
I already know Hell exists, for anyone who does not repet and call upon God’s mercy, though I do not presume to know or concern myself with who is there. That includes the wealthy, the poor, the homosexual, the heterosexual. Aside from the seeming difference in the way he is treating vices in this case, it ultimately doesn’t change anything or bother me. It is still a reminder for any of us of Hell’s reality and our call to aid the poor, at a minimum.
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LongingSoul
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This was not what I was saying… “forget the rest and enjoy the gist”. Far from it. I genuinely don’t find any theological error in the quoted sentence. Neither did Irishpatrick so I was not alone. Perhaps you could explain your experience of reading it, to Brendan? I have been down that road before and can tell you now that my experience will only be pecked to death by him as he already has his opinion set in stone.
For all of us, then, the season of Lent in this Jubilee Year is a favourable time to overcome our existential alienation by listening to God’s word and by practising the works of mercy. In the corporal works of mercy we touch the flesh of Christ in our brothers and sisters who need to be fed, clothed, sheltered, visited; in the spiritual works of mercy – counsel, instruction, forgiveness, admonishment and prayer – we touch more directly our own sinfulness. The corporal and spiritual works of mercy must never be separated. By touching the flesh of the crucified Jesus in the suffering, sinners can receive the gift of realizing that they too are poor and in need. **By taking this path, the “proud”, the “powerful” and the “wealthy” spoken of in the Magnificat can also be embraced and undeservedly loved by the crucified Lord who died and rose for them. **This love alone is the answer to that yearning for infinite happiness and love that we think we can satisfy with the idols of knowledge, power and riches. Yet the danger always remains that by a constant refusal to open the doors of their hearts to Christ who knocks on them in the poor, the proud, rich and powerful will end up condemning themselves and plunging into the eternal abyss of solitude which is Hell.
"By taking this path, the “proud”, the “powerful” and the “wealthy” spoken of in the Magnificat can also be embraced and undeservedly loved by the crucified Lord who died and rose for them. "
Just like the prodigal son in Christs example of real life love… he could not be embraced and ‘undeservedly’ love until he came home with humility. Catholic theology has always demanded our co operation in this existential experience of Gods love. Afterall that was what Pope Francis was teaching about. How to overcome *existential *alienation.
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Oneofthewomen
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Brendan
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I did in post #19
Pot-Kettle.
I’ve never found you to be much interested in backing away from a discussion either 
You are quite correct that God’s Love exists, which is what I hope that you mean by ‘Existential’. But His Love of us does not actually depend on our response to it. We are called to respond with Love ourselves, but His Love is not contingent on that. He will Love us regardless, He will embrace us regardless ( the fact that we continue to exist ourselves is proof of that)
So while the weathly are called to embrace God, He always embraces us. Hence my concern with the statement "the “powerful” and the “wealthy” spoken of in the Magnificat can also be embraced " They are already embraced. There is nothing they can do to change that.
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Darryl1958
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There are a lot of sins of omission and commission that pave our way to hell.
Not helping the poor is one of them, for sure. Not going to church on Sundays is another. Pride definitely is one of the seven deadlies, as as are wrath and sloth and lust.
Give in to these sins too, and you’ll go to hell.
I remember when I was a small kid, and the neighbor I was potty training with said using more than one tissue paper to wipe was a sin, and the Catholic adults around me at the time confirmed that wasting was indeed a sin. That rocked my world. That was the day that it struck me that being good was going to be a whole lot harder than I had thought it would be up to that point. There were more ways of going to hell that I could have even imagined up to that point.
Anyway, I may have neglected to go to a few masses this year, but I am pretty sure that this has been declared the Year of Mercy, by the pope too, of all people.
Good thing for that.
Not helping the poor is one of them, for sure. Not going to church on Sundays is another. Pride definitely is one of the seven deadlies, as as are wrath and sloth and lust.
Give in to these sins too, and you’ll go to hell.
I remember when I was a small kid, and the neighbor I was potty training with said using more than one tissue paper to wipe was a sin, and the Catholic adults around me at the time confirmed that wasting was indeed a sin. That rocked my world. That was the day that it struck me that being good was going to be a whole lot harder than I had thought it would be up to that point. There were more ways of going to hell that I could have even imagined up to that point.
Anyway, I may have neglected to go to a few masses this year, but I am pretty sure that this has been declared the Year of Mercy, by the pope too, of all people.
Good thing for that.
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