Pope turns back on congregation in old mass ritual

[buffalo]

Pope turns back on congregation in old mass ritual

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Benedict celebrated parts of Sunday’s Mass with his back turned on the congregation, re-introducing an old ritual that had not been used in decades.
The Pope used the Sistine Chapel’s ancient altar set right against the wall under Michelangelo’s dramatic depiction of the Last Judgment, instead of the altar placed on a mobile platform that allowed his predecessor John Paul II to face the faithful.

… more

 

[buffalo]

See how the article misunderstands worship? Framing it as an insult to the people. Wow.

 

[MarcoPolo]

This would be funny journalism if it wasn’t so pathetic. Prayers, prayers, prayers…

 

[johnnykins]

Pope turns back on congregation in old mass ritual

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Benedict celebrated parts of Sunday’s Mass with his back turned on the congregation, re-introducing an old ritual that had not been used in decades.
The Pope used the Sistine Chapel’s ancient altar set right against the wall under Michelangelo’s dramatic depiction of the Last Judgment, instead of the altar placed on a mobile platform that allowed his predecessor John Paul II to face the faithful.

… more

Oddly, of course, it was a NO Mass. So it wasn’t an old “ritual” at all. It was the current, the “ordinary” ritual.

Some modern folks just can’t stand change!!

 

[SEBASTIANMARTIN]

My parish priest celebrates the Novus Ordo (Sp?) this way on occasion. I love it! I think it much better captures the movement of liturgical prayer. The preist funneling all the prayers of the congegration as he offer Christ to the Father. I think we will be seeing this much more. (Especially if preists have read “Spirit of the Liturgy”) I also liked that the Holy Father reminded immigrants to respect laws.

 

[MrS]

One comment in the article that I think was right on:

The conservative German-born pontiff is slowly reintroducing some of the old rituals phased out after Vatican II, which substituted Latin for local languages, modernized the Church and encouraged inter-religious dialogue.

that alone should be the encouragement to all. Both the more traditional Catholics who will see his patience and concern in restoring the vertical liturgy… and perhaps the less concerned who will hopefully be re-awakened to the true majesty of the Mass.

doing away with one abuse at a time
doing away with one abuse at a time
doing away with one abuse at a time

.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

My parish priest celebrates the Novus Ordo (Sp?) this way on occasion. I love it! I think it much better captures the movement of liturgical prayer. The preist funneling all the prayers of the congegration as he offer Christ to the Father. I think we will be seeing this much more. (Especially if preists have read “Spirit of the Liturgy”) I also liked that the Holy Father reminded immigrants to respect laws.

It is the norm for my parish for all Masses both OF and EF as well as Chant which was also mentioned in the article. I wish they would do it universally here in the States.

 

[antimon]

from what I have seen, in my country at least, in many modern churches altars are built for a priest to face congregation. I can’t imagine a priest celebrating mass with his back to congregation in my parish, the altar area would have to be completely reorganized…

 

[buffalo]

from what I have seen, in my country at least, in many modern churches altars are built for a priest to face congregation. I can’t imagine a priest celebrating mass with his back to congregation in my parish, the altar area would have to be completely reorganized…

Actually, the post VII altars are to be positioned so it can be done either way.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Actually, the post VII altars are to be positioned so it can be done either way.

Oh, yeah? My cathedral was one of the first to be renovated after V II. The altar is thrust quite forward in the sanctuary and the bishop’s cathedra is directly behind the altar. The pre-V II gothic altar was ripped out. I doubt if there is sufficent room in front of the altar to celebrate Mass ad orientum.

 

[mschrank]

I attend a Latin Novus Ordo Mass. The Priest celebrates it facing Christ (i.e., his ‘back to the congregation’).

I’ve never seen the Mass offered like that anywhere else.

cantius.org/

If you’re anywhere near Chicago, GO!

 

[MrS]

Oh, yeah? My cathedral was one of the first to be renovated after V II. The altar is thrust quite forward in the sanctuary and the bishop’s cathedra is directly behind the altar. The pre-V II gothic altar was ripped out. I doubt if there is sufficent room in front of the altar to celebrate Mass ad orientum.

youtube.com/watch?v=oUNfbgRJOe8

Where there is a will… there is a way.

 

[liturgy_geek]

hmmmmm. I think I’ll make a resolution to GENTLY suggest to anyone who uses the phrase ‘turns back on congregation’ ( thus revealing either conscious or subconscious bias) that he is instead leading us in prayer and interceding for us.

It also reveals the current demands of our culture that one be entertained at all times by novelties, facial expressions, etc.

 

[Polaris]

I understand and believe fully what the pope did was right and good, but I think this article is very telling. Not about our culture being anti-catholic, but about the change in our understanding of body language in the context of culture. For instance kneeling in an Eastern rite church has a different meaning than it does in the latin rite because of culture. Liturgical dance is not right in our celebration because of our culture view of dancing, but it has a different meaning in the African culture which makes it acceptable there.

Today to turn your back on somone in our culture does not mean that you are leading them, it means you are abadoning them.

The church has always adapted her liturgy to the culture it came to and still does. I think we should be more understanding not of only the pope but realize that for the current culture the body posture does not carry the same meaning it once did.

 

[buffalo]

I understand and believe fully what the pope did was right and good, but I think this article is very telling. Not about our culture being anti-catholic, but about the change in our understanding of body language in the context of culture. For instance kneeling in an Eastern rite church has a different meaning than it does in the latin rite because of culture. Liturgical dance is not right in our celebration because of our culture view of dancing, but it has a different meaning in the African culture which makes it acceptable there.

Today to turn your back on somone in our culture does not mean that you are leading them, it means you are abadoning them.

The church has always adapted her liturgy to the culture it came to and still does. I think we should be more understanding not of only the pope but realize that for the current culture the body posture does not carry the same meaning it once did.

Did God change the body posture due Him or did we?

 

[Polaris]

Did God change the body posture due Him or did we?

The body posture is not a constant in church history. If it was we would not be kneeling during the Eucharistic Sacrifice. We do owe him all respect. However, how one shows respect in a culture is different according to that culture. In my culture it is rude to burp at the table in another culture it is an honour to the chef. Which is right? The same goes for God. We show him respect the best way we know how according to our culture.

 

[buffalo]

The body posture is not a constant in church history. If it was we would not be kneeling during the Eucharistic Sacrifice. We do owe him all respect. However, how one shows respect in a culture is different according to that culture. In my culture it is rude to burp at the table in another culture it is an honour to the chef. Which is right? The same goes for God. We show him respect the best way we know how according to our culture.

\

Again I ask the same question - Jesus told us how to pray - cultural differences aside we all recite the Our Father.

We are talking about God here not a chef. It is God’s dictate how we should worship Him not cultural dictates.

 

[Polaris]

\

Again I ask the same question - Jesus told us how to pray - cultural differences aside we all recite the Our Father.

We are talking about God here not a chef. It is God’s dictate how we should worship Him not cultural dictates.

Fine then I will ask. Where did Jesus say that we must do this body posture.

Also how do you defend the change in our postion from standing to kneeling during the Sacrafice of the Mass in history if culture has nothing to do with it?

I think you are wrong in taking the liturgy out of the culture. Have you ever went to an Eastern rite church? There body posture during the mass is different from ours. Are they wrong? It is an approved liturgical form. In china the lay completely on the floor. Are they wrong?

Also if we are going to worship God the Same exact way as He did as a Jew we are going to have to change quite a few postions and rituals that we have during the mass.

Im not saying your culture is wrong, you should feel free to worship God according to your cultures highest standards but the highest in yours is different than mine. Cultures are different and we have to understand that on both sides.

What happened here is what happens when two different cultures meet, confusion. What was needed was a clear explanation of your Culture to the other Culture, who comes from a different view point.

Think of Richard Nixon and his Victory or Peace signs, not sure with him, it was fine and good in the United States but equivalent to flipping ‘the Bird’ in another country he visted.

What God wants from us is the Highest form of Worship for that culture. For you it is with the priest leading you with the Eucharist an unseen glorious mystery. For us it is in the center held high so all can gaze upon the glorious mystery, the priest fades in the background and God shines forth in his beauty.
I find the beauty in both and both are pleasing to God.

 

[buffalo]

Fine then I will ask. Where did Jesus say that we must do this body posture.

Also how do you defend the change in our postion from standing to kneeling during the Sacrafice of the Mass in history if culture has nothing to do with it?

I think you are wrong in taking the liturgy out of the culture. Have you ever went to an Eastern rite church? There body posture during the mass is different from ours. Are they wrong? It is an approved liturgical form. In china the lay completely on the floor. Are they wrong?

Also if we are going to worship God the Same exact way as He did as a Jew we are going to have to change quite a few postion and rituals that we have during the mass.

Im not saying your culture is wrong, you should feel free to worship God according to your cultures highest standards but the highest in yours is different than mine. Cultures are different and we have to understand that on both sides.

What happened here is what happens when two different cultures meet, confusion. What was needed was a clear explanation of your Culture to the other Culture, who comes from a different view point.

Think of Richard Nixon and his Victory or Peace signs, not suer with him, it was fine and good in the United States but equivalent to flipping ‘the Bird’ in another country he visted.

What God wants from us is the Highest form of Worship for that culture. For you it is with the priest leading you with the Eucharist an unseen glorious mystery. For us it is in the center held high so all can gaze upon the glorious mystery, the priest fades in the background and God shines forth in his beauty.
I find the beauty in both and both are pleasing to God.

Is there any culture that worships with their back to God?

 

[Ender]

Today to turn your back on somone in our culture does not mean that you are leading them, it means you are abadoning them.

There is a branch of the Army - astonishingly enough it is the infantry - where young officers are taught not only to turn their backs on their men but to run away from them as well. This incredible behavior is celebrated in their motto: “Follow me!”

I really don’t think we have entirely forgotten what leadership means.

Ender