Pope: 'unjust' unemployment can mean sin, suicide

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I think you mean health care coverage and yes, that is one of the things that Obamacare does: it enables people to more easily afford to purchase their own insurance.
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No it doesn’t.
I’m not satisfied that full cost of Obamacare plans (premiums + out-of-pocket costs) is that affordable, but your point about personal responsibility is exactly one of the things it enables.
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:rotfl:

Government forcing someone to buy a product isn’t my idea of personal responsibility. I don’t think the federal government can force people to be responsible.
 
SuperLuigi said:
No it doesn’t
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Really? You want to argue this? Under Obamacare, income-based subsidies enable individuals to purchase private insurance plans.
:rotfl:
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Government forcing someone to buy a product isn’t my idea of personal responsibility. I don’t think the federal government can force people to be responsible.
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I don’t think that enabling people to buy an essential service they previously couldn’t afford, is anywhere near funny.
 
markomalley said:
If people paid their own medical bills, then perhaps people would take responsibility for their own healthcare or, more properly, their own health.

People are willing to let a hospital charge them $10 for a single aspirin because their insurance pays for it, not the patient. People are willing to pay $300 a month for cholesterol meds rather than eating healthily because somebody else pays for it (note: I realize that there are some who are genetically disposed to have extraordinarily high cholesterol that cannot, regardless of diet/exercise, be controlled without the use of drugs, but those are the minority). And so on.

(Note: nothing in that statement precludes corporal works of mercy for those who have medical needs and are unable to pay their own medical bills…)
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Have you been in close proximity to a medical bill lately? I don’t mean the balance billing that you’re responsible for after the insurance pays their part, I mean the bare, naked bill before any sort of discount. In my area, that amount can be as much as ten times the amount that insurance companies have to pay. I’m not poor but there is no way I could afford that - and no, in my area practices don’t generally offer discounts to uninsured individuals, they just draw up payment arrangements - which would be fine for people who only see the doctor once a year and have no need for expensive tests or procedures. I’m not poor, but I cannot afford to pay multiple undiscounted medical bills - payment arrangements or no payment arrangements.

As for people “letting” themselves be charged anything, again it suggests lack of familiarity with the system. The only practice that gives me the full bill at the end of a visit, is my dentist. Everyone else says “we’ll send it after the insurance has paid its part” or “we don’t know what the final bill is”. When that bill comes, it is laden with codes which require expensive training to understand and apply - even for the people who work with them everyday, let alone the average patient. For the “market” to work - for people to refuse to pay $10 for an Aspirin, they would first have to figure out which line of the bill denotes the Aspirin!
 
seekerz said:
The only practice that gives me the full bill at the end of a visit, is my dentist.
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Point taken. My dentist generally gives me an estimate of the work that my teeth require before he starts the work.
 
seekerz said:
Have you been in close proximity to a medical bill lately? I don’t mean the balance billing that you’re responsible for after the insurance pays their part, I mean the bare, naked bill before any sort of discount. In my area, that amount can be as much as ten times the amount that insurance companies have to pay. I’m not poor but there is no way I could afford that - and no, in my area practices don’t generally offer discounts to uninsured individuals, they just draw up payment arrangements - which would be fine for people who only see the doctor once a year and have no need for expensive tests or procedures. I’m not poor, but I cannot afford to pay multiple undiscounted medical bills - payment arrangements or no payment arrangements.

As for people “letting” themselves be charged anything, again it suggests lack of familiarity with the system. The only practice that gives me the full bill at the end of a visit, is my dentist. Everyone else says “we’ll send it after the insurance has paid its part” or “we don’t know what the final bill is”. When that bill comes, it is laden with codes which require expensive training to understand and apply - even for the people who work with them everyday, let alone the average patient. For the “market” to work - for people to refuse to pay $10 for an Aspirin, they would first have to figure out which line of the bill denotes the Aspirin!
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Actually, I have been in very close proximity to many medical bills. The last time my wife had surgery, we had a whole slew of them. The hospital, the hospital pharmacy, the hospital radiology service, different bills from each doctor’s service, and so on and so forth.

And yes they go down to a ridiculous level of detail. And yes, we got billed from each source before the insurance paid…and then got another bill after the insurance paid.

A good chunk of your medical bills are due to compliance with insurance billing requirements. If you look up the history behind that, you will find that the DRG billing (along with all of the subordinate codes) originated with Medicare back in the early 80s. They were adopted by commercial insurers shortly thereafter.

Practices such as concierge medicine have sprung up in reaction to the outrageous costs and the outrageous paperwork that has evolved from medicine in the past few decades. They also manage to save people a whole slew of money. There are also more and more practices that simply refuse to take insurance. They accept cash only (and if you have insurance, it’s up to you to file it). Again, their rates are significantly lower than other comparable practices. (BTW, one concierge practice here says that they will accept 10% of their clients as charity cases…without the subscription fee. No government told them to do so, they are just doing that on their own).

The point I’m getting at is that if you were paying the bills, you wouldn’t accept what you are getting now. If you had a choice to pay $30 for a pair of jeans at one place and $60 at another place (exact same place), sure, there may be some of us who would pay the $60…and buy those jeans surrounded by the “beautiful people.” Me, I’ll pay the $30…and look real hard for $20 if I can find it. If you needed to get an oil change on the car, would you pay $100 when you could get the exact same thing for $60? (I use Mobil 1 so my perception of prices for oil changes is a little different. I miss the days when I could go to the auto hobby shop on base and do it myself).

And as I said in post #54, above, if somebody could come up with a model similar to auto insurance or homeowner insurance (a per incident deductible and clearly negotiated terms between parties as a contract), I wouldn’t have anything against actual INSURANCE. But not what we have, as it screws up the whole system and turns it into a dirigisme. Obamacare just makes it worse.
 
Tony_Micelli said:
I don’t see how anything our Holy Father has said here can be reconciled with the overly individualistic economic policies promoted by the Tea Party, or for that matter those of the big government and big business Democrats and RINOs. Catholics need to consider all of these issues when voting, and not just abortion and gay marriage, as important as they are.
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👍
 
markomalley said:
Actually, I have been in very close proximity to many medical bills. The last time my wife had surgery, we had a whole slew of them. The hospital, the hospital pharmacy, the hospital radiology service, different bills from each doctor’s service, and so on and so forth.

And yes they go down to a ridiculous level of detail. And yes, we got billed from each source before the insurance paid…and then got another bill after the insurance paid.

A good chunk of your medical bills are due to compliance with insurance billing requirements. If you look up the history behind that, you will find that the DRG billing (along with all of the subordinate codes) originated with Medicare back in the early 80s. They were adopted by commercial insurers shortly thereafter.

Practices such as concierge medicine have sprung up in reaction to the outrageous costs and the outrageous paperwork that has evolved from medicine in the past few decades. They also manage to save people a whole slew of money. There are also more and more practices that simply refuse to take insurance. They accept cash only (and if you have insurance, it’s up to you to file it). Again, their rates are significantly lower than other comparable practices. (BTW, one concierge practice here says that they will accept 10% of their clients as charity cases…without the subscription fee. No government told them to do so, they are just doing that on their own).

The point I’m getting at is that if you were paying the bills, you wouldn’t accept what you are getting now. If you had a choice to pay $30 for a pair of jeans at one place and $60 at another place (exact same place), sure, there may be some of us who would pay the $60…and buy those jeans surrounded by the “beautiful people.” Me, I’ll pay the $30…and look real hard for $20 if I can find it. If you needed to get an oil change on the car, would you pay $100 when you could get the exact same thing for $60? (I use Mobil 1 so my perception of prices for oil changes is a little different. I miss the days when I could go to the auto hobby shop on base and do it myself).

And as I said in post #54, above, if somebody could come up with a model similar to auto insurance or homeowner insurance (a per incident deductible and clearly negotiated terms between parties as a contract), I wouldn’t have anything against actual INSURANCE. But not what we have, as it screws up the whole system and turns it into a dirigisme. Obamacare just makes it worse.
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Much of what you say makes sense if prices were not obscured and if health services were not essential. Think about it - I can only doctor shop if I know beforehand what the prices are going to be, but doctor visits can be charged at different levels (same for procedures which may differ in cost depending on the duration, complexity and presence or absence of complications); all details which can only be known exactly afterward. If I renege on my obligation and enough other people do, that loss might well be made up by increasing fees on other patients - who will come no matter what because sickness is unavoidable and the supply of doctors is limited. So what remains to drive prices down? I’m no economist, so perhaps that’s why I don’t understand how the market cures our ailing health system. Even in the depths of a recession, health care just keeps chugging right along…
 
seekerz said:
Much of what you say makes sense if prices were not obscured and if health services were not essential. Think about it - I can only doctor shop if I know beforehand what the prices are going to be, but doctor visits can be charged at different levels (same for procedures which may differ in cost depending on the duration, complexity and presence or absence of complications); all details which can only be known exactly afterward. If I renege on my obligation and enough other people do, that loss might well be made up by increasing fees on other patients - who will come no matter what because sickness is unavoidable and the supply of doctors is limited. So what remains to drive prices down? I’m no economist, so perhaps that’s why I don’t understand how the market cures our ailing health system. Even in the depths of a recession, health care just keeps chugging right along…
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One way to drive prices down would be to eliminate the AMA’s monopoly on healthcare and control over the supply of doctors and hospitals in this country.
 
seekerz said:
Much of what you say makes sense if prices were not obscured and if health services were not essential. Think about it - I can only doctor shop if I know beforehand what the prices are going to be, but doctor visits can be charged at different levels (same for procedures which may differ in cost depending on the duration, complexity and presence or absence of complications); all details which can only be known exactly afterward. If I renege on my obligation and enough other people do, that loss might well be made up by increasing fees on other patients - who will come no matter what because sickness is unavoidable and the supply of doctors is limited. So what remains to drive prices down? I’m no economist, so perhaps that’s why I don’t understand how the market cures our ailing health system. Even in the depths of a recession, health care just keeps chugging right along…
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For concierge medicine, you know what you’re paying: you have an annual fee.

For cash only practices, most I’ve seen have a price list…right on their website. (This one charges $60 for an office visit, $150 for a house call – yes, a house call, $40 for an EKG, $25 for a complete blood chemistry, etc.)

In fact, there are a few cash only outpatient surgery places: this one charges $3,740 to scope the knee and remove loose parts of the medial and anterior meniscus.

Why couldn’t all places post their prices like the above? Then you could make an intelligent decision. You could look at features like price, features, reputation…and decide for yourself what fits the best with your needs and capabilities.

As far as reneging, yes, that could be a problem. But I’d wager that a person will only cheat the cash only doctor once…and will make it right before they’ll be seen again (and afterwards, they’ll show the cash first). And as far as the outpatient surgery place is concerned, I’d wager that they will make financial arrangements before going under the knife.

But what about emergencies?

Maybe that component of it needs to be dealt with differently for those who are unable to pay for the emergent care (more on that later on).

But what about those who simply can’t afford even those rates?

With our current, flawed taxation system, a medical provider is utterly unable to realize any tax advantage for seeing patients on a charitable basis (though almost every single doctor I know does so anyway). Right now, services you render cannot be counted as charitable deductions. And goods/services donated to private individuals cannot be counted as charitable deductions. I would like to make an exception to that for medical / dental providers. As I said, almost every single provider I know gives away at least some of his services anyway; allowing them to take a deduction for the value of the services they render would only encourage more of that behavior…
 
Really? You want to argue this? Under Obamacare, income-based subsidies enable individuals to purchase private insurance plans.
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Not “enable”. FORCE.

And by the time it’s all over, there will STILL be 30 million uninsured in this country.

A complete and total failure yet again by the American left.
I don’t think that enabling people to buy an essential service they previously couldn’t afford, is anywhere near funny.
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:rolleyes:

Not a good response.

The best way to enable people is enact free-market solutions.
 
gilliam said:
VATICAN CITY (AP) – Pope Francis says that “unjust” social conditions like unemployment can lead to sin, financial ruin and even suicide.
Francis discussed three types of destitution - material, moral and spiritual - in his first message for Lent, the solemn period leading up to Holy Week and Easter, that was released Tuesday.

Moral destitution, he said, “consists of slavery to vice and sin” such as alcohol, drugs, gambling and pornography.

He noted that sometimes “unjust social conditions” like unemployment lead to this type of destitution by depriving people of the dignity of work and access to education and health care.

hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_REL_VATICAN_POVERTY?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-02-04-08-13-33
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Good thing the Pope is infallible only when it comes to faith and morals and not the economy. I say this with all due respect to the Pope. I really do like this Pope. Also, I confess him to be the successor to St. Peter and the Vicar of Christ. That doesn’t mean I have to agree with everything he has to say outside of faith and morals. The government should not have to guarantee full employment for everyone (read: socialism) so that people behave better. People have to take responsibility for their own behavior.
 
That is why all liberal Catholics on this forum should wake up. Just the other day the Dems said we should give people the “freedom” not work but have health insurance. Dems encourage unemployment. Liberal Catholics should search their souls and know their votes have helped this once great nation to destruction. It is never too late to wake up!

Yes, it is not only abortion, and gay marriage. It is also unemployment, entitlement, dependency on government, destroy of religious liberty, etc… and all these are being promoted by Dems big time!

Liberal Catholics, please reconsider your vote!
 
SuperLuigi said:
:rolleyes:

The best way to enable people is enact free-market solutions.
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Such as?

Be specific: how does the free market enable the lay public to drive down prices when they can’t even get someone to tell them what stuff cost BEFORE they buy? Try this right now (cuz that’s a major peeve I have with all of the health care industry and even with Obamacare): call two or three insurance companies and inquire, for any plan that seems affordable to you, what your portion of the cost would be for the lowest level visit to…say, the specialist of your choice. For example, let’s say I have heart problems, what is the least a visit to my cardiologist would cost out of my own pocket, after insurance has paid?

If any company quotes you an exact dollar amount, I’d love to know about it…and btw, so I suspect, would the health care ‘market’…:rolleyes:
 
Bklynguy said:
Good thing the Pope is infallible only when it comes to faith and morals and not the economy. I say this with all due respect to the Pope. I really do like this Pope. Also, I confess him to be the successor to St. Peter and the Vicar of Christ. That doesn’t mean I have to agree with everything he has to say outside of faith and morals. The government should not have to guarantee full employment for everyone (read: socialism) so that people behave better. People have to take responsibility for their own behavior.
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Just remuneration is very much a moral issue. Read the OT prophets. Even back then, they understood that.
 
seekerz said:
It’s not rocket science that’s for sure. Our Church itself expounds on the “just wage”.
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You can always go live in Cuba, where equality has been tried. See how prosperity abounds there.
 
Bklynguy said:
You can always go live in Cuba, where equality has been tried. See how prosperity abounds there.
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I wouldn’t have really mentioned Cuba and equality in the same sentence, but if that works for you…I’m not sure how we got to the topic of equality when we were talking just wages? :confused:
 
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