Pope Urged to Ax "Vicar of Jesus" Title

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Magicsilence:
I thought it was XVI ?
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It is, but the first sentence of the article reads,

“PARIS – Pope Benedict XIV, who has dropped his title ‘Patriarch of the West’ to boost ties with Orthodox Christians, should scrap more terms tagged to his name if he wants real progress, a senior Russian Orthodox bishop said.”
 
Papal titles such as “Vicar of Jesus Christ” or “Sovereign Pontiff of the Universal Church” were “unacceptable, even scandalous” for the Orthodox, Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev said in a statement published this week on his web site.
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Im not sure how the changing of a title changes much?

Aren’t these just formalities?

They want the pope to renounce the Catholic faith and say that it is not part of the true faith to have a pope. Trouble is, as soon as he does that he becomes a heretic and no longer speaks for the Catholic faith. Therefore, it will never happen.

In Christ.

Andre.
 
Haha! :rotfl: Here’s a funny response I found on the Free Republic board:

*Add this latest Orthodox reaction to the file:
  1. Pope (Paul VI) Prays With Patriarch Athenagoras in Jerusalem and Kisses Feet of Orthodox Hierarchs in St. Peter’s Basilica
  2. Pope (John Paul I) Holds Dying Orthodox Hierarch Nikodim in His Arms and Frantically Calls for Medical Help
  3. Pope (John Paul II) Visits Ecumenical Patriarch, Shares Loggia of Benedictions with Patriarch, Returns Orthodox Icon
  4. Pope (Benedict XVI) Drops Potentially-Offensive-to-Orthodox Title
  5. Orthodox, Still Unhappy, Urge Pope (Present Pope and All Future Popes) To Do More.
Like the cantankerous, perennially-ill relative of whom it is said, “He is enjoying poor health,” it seems that no matter what season (liturgical or otherwise) it is anywhere else, where Roman Catholicism is concerned, in Orthodoxy it is eternally winter.*
 
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JSmitty2005:
It is
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, but the first sentence of the article reads,
“PARIS – Pope Benedict XIV, who has dropped his title ‘Patriarch of the West’ to boost ties with Orthodox Christians, should scrap more terms tagged to his name if he wants real progress, a senior Russian Orthodox bishop said.”

Lol, didnt catch that.

Does that mean we have two popes :eek: 🙂

In Christ.

Andre.
 
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JSmitty2005:
It is, but the first sentence of the article reads,
“PARIS – Pope Benedict XIV, who has dropped his title ‘Patriarch of the West’ to boost ties with Orthodox Christians, should scrap more terms tagged to his name if he wants real progress, a senior Russian Orthodox bishop said.”
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Ever since I first read about the dropping of the “Patriarch of the West” title, I’ve wondered why people think this is an ecumenical move toward the Orthodox… It would seem that by dropping that title, he’s actually signaling that he’s rightfully the Patriarch of all Christendom…

Just my opinion.

God Bless,
RyanL
 
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RyanL:
Ever since I first read about the dropping of the “Patriarch of the West” title, I’ve wondered why people think this is an ecumenical move toward the Orthodox… It would seem that by dropping that title, he’s actually signaling that he’s rightfully the Patriarch of all Christendom…

Just my opinion.

God Bless,
RyanL
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I agree. I thought the same thing.
 
They want the pope to renounce the Catholic faith and say that it is not part of the true faith to have a pope. Trouble is, as soon as he does that he becomes a heretic and no longer speaks for the Catholic faith. Therefore, it will never happen.
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The disunity that exists between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches is sad, but let’s remember that ReUnification will NOT consist of the Orthodox church coming back to us, but of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches coming TOGETHER.

I agree though, that dropping the title Patriarch of the West seems a step away from unity, not toward it.
 
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Yerusalyim:
The disunity that exists between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches is sad, but let’s remember that ReUnification will NOT consist of the Orthodox church coming back to us, but of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches coming TOGETHER.

I agree though, that dropping the title Patriarch of the West seems a step away from unity, not toward it.
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You are implying compromise, which is something that Catholics are not permitted to do in matters of the Faith. The Orthodox WILL be “coming back to us” or there will be no reunification since the Deposit of Faith cannot be compromised.
 
I’m not implying compromise of doctrine, but of a sense of superiortity. Doctrinally, very little seperates us from the Orthodox, but an attitude of superiority by both they and us continues to seperate us. It was the sin of both the Orthodox Churches AND the Catholic Church that led to Schism. We too bear guilt. I don’t suggest compromise at all, but rather and openess to healing that is disallowed by the attitude that they must come to us on bended knee seeking forgiveness. They have valid sacraments and ordination…THEY ARE CHURCH!
 
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Yerusalyim:
I’m not implying compromise of doctrine, but of a sense of superiortity. Doctrinally, very little seperates us from the Orthodox, but an attitude of superiority by both they and us continues to seperate us. It was the sin of both the Orthodox Churches AND the Catholic Church that led to Schism. We too bear guilt. I don’t suggest compromise at all, but rather and openess to healing that is disallowed by the attitude that they must come to us on bended knee seeking forgiveness. They have valid sacraments and ordination…THEY ARE CHURCH!
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They are Church, but I didn’t really read anyone saying they need to grovel at the feet of the Pope in order to satisfy our desire for heavenly justice.

They coming to us is meant completely in doctrinal terms – they must align their doctrine with Catholic dogma or there can be no unification. Compromise can only come in disciplines and pastoral choices, not dogma.

Besides, if it were simply a matter of groveling for forgiveness I firmly believe the Pope would be at the feet of their patriarch asking forgiveness in a second if it would mean the Orthodox would come to agree with True Catholic dogma and come back to the fullness of the faith.

Peace,
javelin
 
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Yerusalyim:
I’m not implying compromise of doctrine, but of a sense of superiortity. Doctrinally, very little seperates us from the Orthodox, but an attitude of superiority by both they and us continues to seperate us. It was the sin of both the Orthodox Churches AND the Catholic Church that led to Schism. We too bear guilt. I don’t suggest compromise at all, but rather and openess to healing that is disallowed by the attitude that they must come to us on bended knee seeking forgiveness. They have valid sacraments and ordination…THEY ARE CHURCH!
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Rome *does * have primacy. The Catholic Church *cannot * sin. *They * have erred and *must * reconcile themselves to the Supreme Pontiff, not vice versa.
 
They have valid sacraments and ordination.
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Yes the CC believes and teaches that the OC has valid sacraments and ordination. However, the OC does not believe that the CC has valid sacraments. The CC bends over backwards but they want the CC to renounce the papacy, probably all the dogmas about the BVM, etc. In most instances they will baptize converts, as they don’t recognize as valid any baptism outside the OC. The CC will allow in some instances a catholic to receive communion in the OC, but the OC will not allow CC’s to receive communion in their churches or allow their members under any circumstances to receive communion in the CC. IMO until they change that, (and as far as I can tell from their posts-they have no intention of ever changing) there can be no chance of working together.But then, who really speaks for all of Orthodoxy?
 
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Yerusalyim:
I’m not implying compromise of doctrine, but of a sense of superiortity. Doctrinally, very little seperates us from the Orthodox, but an attitude of superiority by both they and us continues to seperate us. It was the sin of both the Orthodox Churches AND the Catholic Church that led to Schism. We too bear guilt. I don’t suggest compromise at all, but rather and openess to healing that is disallowed by the attitude that they must come to us on bended knee seeking forgiveness. They have valid sacraments and ordination…THEY ARE CHURCH!
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I used to believe that our differneces with the Orthodox were minimal and not much seperates us, but after spending a year in the Eastern Christianity forum, I believe these differences are much larger than people first suspect.
 
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Hegesippus:
I used to believe that our differneces with the Orthodox were minimal and not much seperates us, but after spending a year in the Eastern Christianity forum, I believe these differences are much larger than people first suspect.
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I have learned the same as well. I think that we will have more luck converting our fellow westerners (Protestants) than we are the Orthodox. They’re too stubborn.
 
There are definitely subborn issues there. Its an “ethnic” thing in my opinion. There is a bitter nationalism in the Orthodox churches…caesaropapism does horrible things to any religion. I don’t know why we keep compromising our heritage and making concessions, that while not dogmatic, let go of our traditions. The orthodox are not going to compromise until the Pope declares himself not infallible and not supreme administrator of the Church…which he cannot do. So dropping titles merely weakens us while accomplishing nothing in terms of their reconcilliation. Notice how the Orthodox-Catholic “efforts at reunity” are all one sided…Rome had done everything, made every concession. I take this as proof that Rome is right, whereas the orthodox would say it proves they are right because they never had to change…it was we who admitted the need to change, not them. It would be nice to bring the orthodox back into the fold en masse…get all those great churches and relics…St. Basil’s etc…but I think realistically we should just concentrate on converting individuals. Its no help to us if we give St. Nicholas back to the orthodox and nothing ever comes of it…all it means is we’ve lost some important relics to schismatics. Then again, maybe Church higher ups understand some possibility of nearness of reconcilliation that we dont…maybe they have information we dont.
 
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batteddy:
I don’t know why we keep compromising our heritage and making concessions, that while not dogmatic, let go of our traditions. The orthodox are not going to compromise until the Pope declares himself not infallible and not supreme administrator of the Church…which he cannot do. So dropping titles merely weakens us while accomplishing nothing in terms of their reconcilliation…all it means is we’ve lost some important relics to schismatics
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:yup: :amen: :clapping:
 
What is painful and astounding is , how the Orthodox Churches ignore what they stand to gain - the most, from the fulfillment of the promise- ‘that the world may believe’ !

A world where Islam would have returned the HagiaSophia , Islam no longer a threat to other countries ;where the severe internal problems in Russia would be alleviated
and China and many other nations where Christianity could make such a diffrence !

We hear how the only countries in Africa that have been able to withstand the AIDS epidemic has been those where chastity has been promoted under Church efforts !

The issues of ethnic pride and identification of church with Govt. -very human issues , are most likely the root ; yet being those gifted with valid sacraments and who use the power of anathemas , it is easy to see how the Popes listen to the voice of heaven, urging on the need for unity, mercy and forgiveness - primarily also out of concern for the suffering of the ones affected by effects of disunity - atheism, Islam , communism , paganism

The Catholic Church is growing well in areas considered ‘not west’ and the Pope acted on truth again by dropping the title of Patriarch of the west !

When we can trust that a priest is given the power to consecrate and absolve (persona christi) , it is very difficult to see how anyone can have problem in realisng that the Pope , under God ordained circumstance would have the power of infalliblilty!
 
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