Pope urges Catholic penance over priest scandal

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channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/1050399/1/.html

VATICAN CITY: Pope Benedict XVI on Thursday urged Roman Catholics to “do penance” as the Church comes under assault over widespread paedophile priest scandals.

“Now under the attacks of the world which talk to us about our sins, let us see that we can do penance,” the Pope said at a mass at the Vatican…

I think the guilty should do penace, but calling all of us to do penance because the world is ‘talking to us about our sins’ seems odd. For starters, why shouldn’t the world talk to us about our sins? And for the record, these sins—molesting children and covering it up—don’t belong to all or even most of us.
 
We’re not called to do penance only for our own sins – we are each part of humanity and humanity’s sins… but I agree it sounds a bit “off” – just as when the abuse safeguards were put into place in our parishes. Suddenly we volunteers were the ones undergoing security checks and pre-volunteer counseling and training when nearly all cases of abuse had been perpetrated by clergy.

We’ve been told so many times that the Church is comprised of sinners – but it sometimes seems to me that the hierarchy is still not able to accept its responsibility.
 
Yeah well, I’m sure I’ll pick up a bit of flack for this, but here goes.

Yes, we are all called to do penance. Nobody does guilt as well as the Catholics. But the quote from Benedict does sound off, as well as the whole priest-pediphile situation. They spend a great deal of time getting in our business, right down to the marriage bed, practically sitting between a husband and wife “tutoring” them on what to do, when to do, in what order to do, and how to do. With it not even occuring to their most faithful followers that there maybe might be something a little wrong with that…yet they can’t keep it in their own pants with our children. Then we have to do penance for their vile transgressions, as if we don’t have enough to do penance for on our own.

I’ll tell you what: I’ll leave it to those most faithful followers to do penance on behalf of the priests who have molested their children. They’re lucky the lesser tolerant of us aren’t shouting above the rooftops for the Vatican to put a stop to the craziness and remove priests from having access to children. Oh wait, some of us are :rolleyes:
 
The Church is famous for sometimes using ‘the Church’ to mean All Of Us but for other times using it to refer to the hierarchy. In THIS case, when we are talking about the sins of priests and bishops, it is especially off-putting for the Pope to ask for the laity’s penance as if we were as much at fault as the hierarchy.
It would also be another thing if more bishops and priests acknowledged their guilt, begged for forgiveness and asked us to join them in penance for the good of the Church and the world. I think many would gleefully do that.

As someone said above, Catholics are good at guilt. That is true, but it also makes it more troubling when the hierarchy seeks to avoid the suggestion that they even could be guilty of such things. That’s bad theology and bad pastoral practice. Rather than being overly influenced by psychologists, I think the Vatican may be overly influence by lawyers!
 
markeverett49 said:
VATICAN CITY: Pope Benedict XVI on Thursday urged Roman Catholics to “do penance” as the Church comes under assault over widespread paedophile priest scandals.

“Now under the attacks of the world which talk to us about our sins, let us see that we can do penance,” the Pope said at a mass at the Vatican…

I think the guilty should do penace, but calling all of us to do penance because the world is ‘talking to us about our sins’ seems odd. For starters, why shouldn’t the world talk to us about our sins? And for the record, these sins—molesting children and covering it up—don’t belong to all or even most of us.
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You would know the theology better than I, but it seems to me we are called to do penance for the sins of others. If I’m not mistaken, wasn’t that one of the messages of Fatima?
 
qui_est_ce said:
You would know the theology better than I, but it seems to me we are called to do penance for the sins of others. QUOTE]

For those who acknowledge their sins, yes. But to do penance for those who deny they have sinned is, well, problematic. Also, in this case it is not clear that the Pope is asking us to do penance for priests who have sinned but for all of us to do penance for our sins in this area. But most of us don’t have sins in this area, and many in the hierarchy have denied doing anything wrong, much less sinning.

Think of it this way. You don’t enter the confessional and say, “Bless me, Father, for mistakes were made…”
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markeverett49 said:
qui est ce;6529393:
You would know the theology better than I, but it seems to me we are called to do penance for the sins of others. QUOTE]

For those who acknowledge their sins, yes. But to do penance for those who deny they have sinned is, well, problematic. Also, in this case it is not clear that the Pope is asking us to do penance for priests who have sinned but for all of us to do penance for our sins in this area. But most of us don’t have sins in this area, and many in the hierarchy have denied doing anything wrong, much less sinning.

Think of it this way. You don’t enter the confessional and say, “Bless me, Father, for mistakes were made…”
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Hmm…well no, I suppose one is not required to do penance for anyone else other than himself, but odd as it might sound, theologically, it might be correct. Even if there are those who deny their guilt, Jesus is still offended. We (I believe) are called to make reparation both for our sins and the sins of others. Wouldn’t hurt anyone to sit before the Blessed Sacrament and offer prayers of reparation for the terrible pain to Jesus caused by this whole mess.🤷
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Jesus Christ did the most awful penance in recorded history for our sins, and He was completely innocent, righteous, and without blame.
  • Marty Lund
 
mlund said:
Jesus Christ did the most awful penance in recorded history for our sins, and He was completely innocent, righteous, and without blame.
  • Marty Lund
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Excellent point. Yes, isn’t it crazy for the Pope to ask that Catholics try to imitate our Savior?
 
Teelynn said:
markeverett49;6530276:
Wouldn’t hurt anyone to sit before the Blessed Sacrament and offer prayers of reparation for the terrible pain to Jesus caused by this whole mess.🤷
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I wouldn’t argue with that! But is that the same thing as doing penance for those who have abused minors and those who have covered up for them? It would be one thing if they confessed and then asked for our prayers. But the way this is phrased it sounds as if, in doing this, we are doing penance for sins we are parties to. We pray for victims of abortion, for example, and for pregnant mothers to keep their babies, and for the culture to awaken to the beauties of life, but we don’t pray for our sins in the area of abortion unless we have some. (Some of us, do, of course, but many of us do not.)

Put another way, with this sex scandal, the sins in question were committed by clerics. (Many lay Catholics have molested children too, and that’s a great shame, but that the Pope is really not talking about doing penance for them here, is he?)
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baylee said:
Yes, isn’t it crazy for the Pope to ask that Catholics try to imitate our Savior?
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Um, we cannot imitate Him in atoning for the sins of others. He died for us; we cannot die for each other. One way, however, we might imitate Jesus is by ‘turning over the tables in the Temple,’ that is, raising holy hell with those who have stained the Father’s house with egregious sins…
 
markeverett49 said:
Um, we cannot imitate Him in atoning for the sins of others. He died for us; we cannot die for each other. One way, however, we might imitate Jesus is by ‘turning over the tables in the Temple,’ that is, raising holy hell with those who have stained the Father’s house with egregious sins…
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Actually we can atone for the sins of others. Any sufferings we offer up to God can be directed to reparation for the sins of others. When we do this we are trying to repair in some infinitely small way for the offenses God has suffered. Think of it as giving him a drop of water when He said on the cross, “I thirst”. Many saints (and non-recognized saints) spent their lives doing just that.
 
markeverett49 said:
Um, we cannot imitate Him in atoning for the sins of others. He died for us; we cannot die for each other. One way, however, we might imitate Jesus is by ‘turning over the tables in the Temple,’ that is, raising holy hell with those who have stained the Father’s house with egregious sins…
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Also, these acts are crimes. They are not “only” sins. When another person is harmed in ways that are against the law, crimes have been committed. I think that has been part of the problem all along, that the Church has viewed molestation as “sinning” rather than “committing crimes” when in fact it is both.

If someone were to ask me to do penance for something I would consider a sin that I have not performed myself, such as members of the priesthood who express very out-there beliefs (something that’s been discussed here lately) then I would consider doing it. b/c even if someone else expressed heresy for example, that could affect many people in the Church and as a witness to this situation I could do penance.

By heresy I’m not talking about ‘saying something that the Vatican doesn’t like.’ There is a book by a Quaker minister out called something like, If the Church were Christian. In this book he repeatedly denies the divinity of Jesus. That’s what I mean by heresy. He then expects to be respected among Christians anyway even though he has redefined Jesus in his own image. If he were a Catholic priest saying these things, and for some reason allowed to stay in the priesthood, I would probably do penance for that b/c as a listener I’d feel some responsibility.

but I have a harder time thinking about doing penance for crimes especially when the perpetrators including those who transferred priests, have not apologized.
 
momor said:
Any sufferings we offer up to God can be directed to reparation for the sins of others. .
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Granted, but that is not the same thing as penance. Penance for the unrepentent would not work.
 
markeverett49 said:
channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/1050399/1/.html

VATICAN CITY: Pope Benedict XVI on Thursday urged Roman Catholics to “do penance” as the Church comes under assault over widespread paedophile priest scandals.

“Now under the attacks of the world which talk to us about our sins, let us see that we can do penance,” the Pope said at a mass at the Vatican…

I think the guilty should do penace, but calling all of us to do penance because the world is ‘talking to us about our sins’ seems odd. For starters, why shouldn’t the world talk to us about our sins? And for the record, these sins—molesting children and covering it up—don’t belong to all or even most of us.
Click to expand...
I think the Pope is announcing that he is going to face the abuse issue with a spirit of penitence, and wants us to do the same. We should all be humble and admit fault where it occurred in our Church. And the hierarchy is probably preparing some penitential steps to address the crisis.

Thats my guess, anyway.
 
Praying and doing penance for the sins of self and others is in fact part of the Fatima message. Bolding is mine, a link for your reference is at the bottom of the post.

FATIMA PRAYERS
TAUGHT BY THE ANGEL AT FATIMA (1916) :angel1:

My God, I believe, I adore, I hope and I love You! ** I beg pardon for those who do not believe, nor adore, nor hope, nor love You.**

Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I adore You profoundly. I offer You the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifference by which He is offended. And, through the infinite merits of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of You the conversion of sinners.

TAUGHT BY OUR LADY AT FATIMA (1917)

"Sacrifice yourselves for sinners and say often,
especially whenever you make a sacrifice:

O Jesus, this is for love of You, for the conversion of sinners and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary." (July 13, 1917)

rosary-center.org/maryfatm.htm
 
silentstar said:
Also, these acts are crimes. They are not “only” sins.
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Sure. The criminal system metes out punishments that are temporary, and often measure up to be insignificant next to the harm done by the acts, as exhibited here:

8newsnow.com/Global/story.asp?s=1301382

Sins, however, are permanent offenses against God that inflict indelible marks on the soul.

While crime must be rooted out and punished, sin must be atoned for - even when it is not a crime or when criminal prosecution fails to deliver justice.
  • Marty Lund
 
I cannot agree more with Post #4. I find the Pope’s suggestion to lay people offensive in the extreme. Had he announced that he would ask clergy (all of them) to join the highest office-holders in the Church in doing penance and praying for guidance to immediate, effective solutions, I would have respected that.

Your Holiness, innocent victims don’t need to do more penance on top of the agonizing and humiliating penance they have unjustly been delivered by perpetrators of molestation and rape. It’s the decision-makers who need to do penance for any acts of omission and any avoidance of The Truth which has led to such undeserved suffering.
 
I don’t find (as a lay person) the idea of being asked to do penance for these sins (which were not done by me) to be offensive at all. And I certainly did not get the take that the Pope was ‘blaming the victims’ or that in asking ‘all’ to do penance he was somehow doing just that to the victims.

Aren’t we supposed to be caring for our brothers?

We’re supposed to lay down our lives for each other. . .like Jesus did, dying not just for the ‘good’ people but the ‘bad ones’ as well.

What about the scripture where we’re told that we don’t just pray for our friends, and love the people who ‘love’ us, but that we are supposed to pray and love the ones who hate us?

The idea that somehow the sins of these priests were done in a vacuum and that we as a society have done nothing ‘wrong’ is itself flawed.

The sexualization of society is partly responsible for these and all sexual sins. The glamourizing of fornication and adultery, masturbation, homosexuality etc. as normal, healthy, ‘inevitable’, and the ‘freedom’ that is screamed for in every area of life somehow is for everybody else? IOW, so long as it’s John Layperson having one-night stands, Mary Layperson on her 5th ‘wedding’, little Billy and Muffy playing with vibrators lest they ‘explode’ from their ‘natural urges’, and Adam and Steve ‘marrying’ because they 'love each other", all is hunky dory. Heck, although we might mutter a bit when Coach is found out to be groping his athletes, or 'Reverend Sikes" has kiddie porn on his computer, we’ll forget that pretty quickly because we have the perfect scapegoat–Catholic priests. MUCH worse than anybody else. Heck, worse than all of us who have been twiddling our thumbs while for 40 years, abortion has decimated humanity to the tune of millions of innocent lives lost because **we have to have sex when we want, with whomever we want, however we want. . .and we can’t have any ‘complications’ we don’t want like being ‘punished’ with a baby. **

**We are so concerned over ‘the children’–that is, so long as they were abused by Catholic priests. Don’t let the fact that 98% of abused children were NOT abused by a Catholic priest interfere with your righteous diatribes, or the fact that these children will never see a penny (unlike the millions given to victims of priests), or have counseling and help (unlike the victims of Catholic priests) and society will not ‘condemn’ their abusers (unlike the victims of Catholic priests). **

But the victims of abuse so heinous that it resulted in THEIR DEATH are ignored by most, and if mentioned at all, often mentioned as ‘undeserving’ of life by not being ‘full persons’, by not being ‘wanted’, by not being ‘planned’, by not being ‘convenient’, by not being the proper sex, or coming at the proper milestone, or not being completely ‘perfect’. . .

Tell you what. When you (GENERIC YOU HERE, I AM NOT ADDRESSING ANY INDIVIDUAL PERSON) are as zealous for the protection of the innocent victims of abortion as you are for their mothers’ economic welfare, and when you are as zealous for the punishment of child abusers who are NOT CATHOLIC PRIESTS as you are for the priests and bishops. . .I might be more inclined to view you as being truly seeking a solution to a societal problem and NOT as really wanting to topple an ‘authority’ which you think is out to interfere with your 'freedom.'

Oh yes, fellow laity. We DO need to do penance for these sins. We’re our brother’s keepers still, and we are called to be Christ . . . not Judas. IOW, we’re called to love the unlovable and to give ‘until it hurts’. . .not just to love the ‘popular’ and not to have to ‘give’ at all if they are 'undeserving.'

**Have we forgotten Jesus so soon after the celebration of His Death and Resurrection? **
 
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