Pope urges Catholics and Lutherans to recognize past errors

[Convert_in_99]

x2

 

[Convert_in_99]

Why will this work with the Lutherans, but it hasn’t worked so far with the SSPX?

Why was Jesus able to reach out to the samaritans but not the Jews.

 

[Tomdstone]

Why was Jesus able to reach out to the samaritans but not the Jews.

AFAIK, Samaritan law is not the same as halakha (Rabbinical Jewish law)… Jesus broke the halakah or the rabbinic jewish laws,

 

[Beryllos]

Do you think seeing how Christians have been persecuted in the Middle East and how Islam is spreading and trying to enforce its influence wherever it moves might be helping Christians feel we need to be more united and be one body? …

No, and yes.

Well, I can’t say how other Christians feel, or what motivates them, but I myself don’t see ecumenism as a political alliance crafted by men in order to overcome an adversary. On the other hand, if all God’s children were united as one Body with Christ as our head, the world would be a much better place, and many souls would be saved.

By the way, Islam is only one threat to salvation. In fact, I see a much greater threat in the moral breakdown in the West: the pride, self-absorption, sexual impurity, pleasure-seeking, and preoccupation with material things. Then there’s the disregard for human life and dignity, the contempt in some quarters for religion, the corruption of our political system… I could go on, but not right now. My point is that we need to clean our own house, and then perhaps we could school the rest of the world in holiness.

 

[Tomdstone]

By the way, Islam is only one threat to salvation. In fact, I see a much greater threat in the moral breakdown in the West: the pride, self-absorption, sexual impurity, pleasure-seeking, and preoccupation with material things.

Isn’t this what Sunni Islam is fighting against?

 

[Robert_Bay]

MODERATOR NOTE

This thread is wandering, please return to the topic of the original post

 

[TCEL]

The past two weeks I have been listening to the philosophical history and backdrop of the Reformation.

I didn’t know that Luther said it was a blasphemy to say the Eucharist is a sacrifice!

The dichotomy between faith and reason stems from a rejection of the sacramental worldview. Hence, faith alone, or reason alone.

All I’m saying is, we won’t get much further in dialogue if philosophical differences aren’t addressed. Or, maybe progress will be made, but it will be in spite of them. I really don’t like trying to sweep differences under the rug like they don’t matter though. How we can have true dialogue unless we address differences head on, in a spirit of humility? Who says it has to be uncharitable to do that? I mean, this is basic communication in marriage. You can’t sweep stuff under the rug and expect it to go away. It often just manifests itself in other ways, sometimes explosively.

I certainly want reconciliation to come, but it has to be real, not pseudo. I can agree with the sentiment that greater emphasis on Scripture is a good fruit… but not at the expense of authoritative interpretation. I can agree with saying that God’s movement comes first…but not at the expense of saying man is not good.

Maybe these are just the first tentative steps of courting.

 

[zz912]

It will be interesting to see how Lutherans finally reject their errors and come home. Hopefully it will be soon.

 

[Beryllos]

“Lord, help us by your grace to be more closely united to you and thus, together, to bear a more effective witness of faith, hope and love.”

[SIGN]Amen![/SIGN]

 

[ctb95]

“A waste of time”…“nothing substantive ever seems to come from it.”

This is written by someone whose profile says they went through RCIA in 2015?

:nope:

As a Catholic priest, I think back to 50 years ago when, in the wake of the Council, I could not imagine, within my lifetime, that the progress would be so great that the Pope and a Lutheran Bishop would do what I saw today: stand side by side in a former Catholic – and now Lutheran – cathedral, in order to co-preside at a joint liturgy of common prayer to commemorate the Reformation…and invite Catholic clergy and Lutheran clergy to repeat this rite in parishes all around the world over the course of the next year, with their own Catholic and Lutheran flocks coming together to make these commemorations occur at the parish level.

I am nothing short of being in amazement at where we are in this journey From Conflict To Communion after a mere 50 years of dialogue, which seeks to heal wounds more than 500 years old.

I see your point, but I respectfully disagree. I think evangelization at the individual and parish level is what we need to focus on. We’ve been focusing on ecumenical efforts over the past fifty years, but it seems that Catholics and Lutherans are even further apart, especially as far as moral theology is concerned (women priests, gay marriage, etc).

I believe that dialogue needs to start at the bottom, not the top. Evangelizing individual people or individual churches (i.e. The Anglican Ordinariate) is more likely to be effective. Have Lutheran churches or the Episcopal church ever changed a single doctrine to align more with Catholic teaching? I guess I’m just cynical.

Sorry if I’m getting this thread further off topic.

 

[EIF5A]

I would like to think this is a good event.

But I follow some conservative Catholics on social media, and they have a completely different take. For purpose of charity, their sentiments will not be repeated here.

Things are confusing: how to know it is the working of the Holy Spirit or a pope who is misled, or worse, a her–ic?

 

[Latinitas]

Why will this work with the Lutherans, but it hasn’t worked so far with the SSPX?

Why was Jesus able to reach out to the samaritans but not the Jews.

To Francis’s credit, he’s worked quite a bit with the SSPX. In case you haven’t been following, he’s granted their priests faculties to hear confessions for the year of mercy and may grant them permanently. Dialogues between him and Fellay have continued unabated. That is even though the SSPX is highly critical of Francis (and I’m sure Francis is critical of their positions on most things).

If I may say, though, the priests and followers of the SSPX are not, generally, Pharisaical. Most of them are genuinely devout, sincere, albeit misguided Catholics, alarmed and troubled by what they see in the Church.

Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

 

[Latinitas]

“A waste of time”…“nothing substantive ever seems to come from it.”

This is written by someone whose profile says they went through RCIA in 2015?

:nope:

As a Catholic priest, I think back to 50 years ago when, in the wake of the Council, I could not imagine, within my lifetime, that the progress would be so great that the Pope and a Lutheran Bishop would do what I saw today: stand side by side in a former Catholic – and now Lutheran – cathedral, in order to co-preside at a joint liturgy of common prayer to commemorate the Reformation…and invite Catholic clergy and Lutheran clergy to repeat this rite in parishes all around the world over the course of the next year, with their own Catholic and Lutheran flocks coming together to make these commemorations occur at the parish level.

I am nothing short of being in amazement at where we are in this journey From Conflict To Communion after a mere 50 years of dialogue, which seeks to heal wounds more than 500 years old.

I’m not exactly sure this is progress.

 

[Beryllos]

I would like to think this is a good event.

But I follow some conservative Catholics on social media, and they have a completely different take…

I don’t follow social media, but I’ll be charitable and assume the critics are sincere and honest. Perhaps they saying “That’s just the way it is,” or “That will never work.” It’s easy to think of reasons not to try to solve a problem. Don’t settle for that.

We should be like that graduate student who came late to math class. It’s a true story. The professor had written two unsolved statistics problems on the blackboard. The student thought it was the homework assignment. He went home and solved them. He did it because no one told him it was impossible.

With regard to our faith and the Church, we should think twice before saying that some good work is impossible. “For human beings it is impossible, but not for God. All things are possible for God.”

 

[Convert_in_99]

I would like to think this is a good event.

But I follow some conservative Catholics on social media, and they have a completely different take. For purpose of charity, their sentiments will not be repeated here.

Things are confusing: how to know it is the working of the Holy Spirit or a pope who is misled, or worse, a her–ic?

I can believe it. Thanks for not sharing them!

Pope Francis is not being mislead and he certainly is NOT a heretic. Good grief!

 

[Convert_in_99]

I don’t follow social media, but I’ll be charitable and assume the critics are sincere and honest. Perhaps they saying “That’s just the way it is,” or “That will never work.” It’s easy to think of reasons not to try to solve a problem. Don’t settle for that.

We should be like that graduate student who came late to math class. It’s a true story. The professor had written two unsolved statistics problems on the blackboard. The student thought it was the homework assignment. He went home and solved them. He did it because no one told him it was impossible.

With regard to our faith and the Church, we should think twice before saying that some good work is impossible. “For human beings it is impossible, but not for God. All things are possible for God.”

Awesome quote!

 

[Beryllos]

Things are confusing: how to know it is the working of the Holy Spirit or a pope who is misled, or worse, a her–ic?

If you haven’t read the full text of the OP, please do so. It may help.

In general, whenever I hear or read some negative interpretation of what Pope Francis said, I try to find the source, read it, and think for myself. Usually I find there is no real basis for controversy.

 

[deaconjohnO]

“A waste of time”…“nothing substantive ever seems to come from it.”

This is written by someone whose profile says they went through RCIA in 2015?

:nope:

As a Catholic priest, I think back to 50 years ago when, in the wake of the Council, I could not imagine, within my lifetime, that the progress would be so great that the Pope and a Lutheran Bishop would do what I saw today: stand side by side in a former Catholic – and now Lutheran – cathedral, in order to co-preside at a joint liturgy of common prayer to commemorate the Reformation…and invite Catholic clergy and Lutheran clergy to repeat this rite in parishes all around the world over the course of the next year, with their own Catholic and Lutheran flocks coming together to make these commemorations occur at the parish level.

I am nothing short of being in amazement at where we are in this journey From Conflict To Communion after a mere 50 years of dialogue, which seeks to heal wounds more than 500 years old.

I wonder which Lutheran Sect sat down with the pope? The ELCA is the prominent Lutheran sect in my area. The next in prominence is the Missouri synod which is VERY separated from the ELCA. The ELCA is the largest Lutheran Body in the U.S. If we were to have Joint ceremonies which sect would we choose? The 3.5 million-member ELCA which supports abortion, birth control and gay marriage? Or the 2.5 million member WLS which is bitterly separated from both the ELCA and the Catholic Church. ? Choosing one or the other would be terribly un-ecumenical and send hostile signals towards the other. If Liturgy drove the decision it would be a no-brainer to ask the Missouri synod Church, their liturgy is quite close to the Catholic Liturgy. I have family members that are MSL and they kneel at a communion rail and recieve on the tongue.

 

[Convert_in_99]

To Francis’s credit, he’s worked quite a bit with the SSPX. In case you haven’t been following, he’s granted their priests faculties to hear confessions for the year of mercy and may grant them permanently. Dialogues between him and Fellay have continued unabated. That is even though the SSPX is highly critical of Francis (and I’m sure Francis is critical of their positions on most things).

If I may say, though, the priests and followers of the SSPX are not, generally, Pharisaical. Most of them are genuinely devout, sincere, albeit misguided Catholics, alarmed and troubled by what they see in the Church.

Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

Thank you for this information. I am not very knowledgeable about the SSPX save they are in schism with Rome and that they seem to think anything post Vatican ll is invalid.

 

[pnewton]

Why will this work with the Lutherans, but it hasn’t worked so far with the SSPX?

I for one have not given them up as a lost cause.