Pope Urges Faithful to Long for Unity

[Ridgerunner]

Oui, mon frere RR des arcs, je suis d’accord avec vous. C’est frequement une probleme quand l’accusation est seulement “qu’ils disent”. Qui sont “ils”? Evidement "ils"sont les enemis de l’eglise chretienne. Je sais que les catoliques de croatie et les orthodoxes de serbie sont comme les catoliques d’EUA et les orthodoxes de ukrainie. Parmi eux sont les saints, parmi eux sont les terribles pecheurs. Et ironiquement pour nous, Jesus Christ aime tous, meme nous, les pecheurs.

Vous etes canadien? Ou-est “aux arcs”, en quebec?

Non. Je ne suis pas Canadien. Je suis Americain. Je ne parle pas qu’un peu Francais. Les “Aux Arcs” sont dans Missouri, Arkansas et Oklahoma. Quand les missionaires Francaises arrivait ice, ils disait aux poches rouges <>??? Les poches rouges disait “Aux Arcs”. C’est le nom les poches roughes l’ a donnait, parce que le bois plus bon pour les arcs etait ici. Les Americains a dit “Ozarks”. “Ozarks”=“Aux Arcs”. Comprenez?

Aujourd’hui, le nom de ce bois est “bois d’arc”. Les Americains disent “bodark”, ou “L’orange d’Osages”.

Maintenent en Anglais. I can actually speak a little English.

I’m not Canadian, but American. I can speak very little French. The “Aux Arcs” (spelled “Ozarks”) are mountains in Missouri, Arkansas and Oklahoma. When the French missionaries came here, they asked the Indians the name of the place. The indians told them “the place of the bows”, because of the excellent bow wood found here. In French, that was rendered “Aux Arcs”, but was corrupted to “Ozarks” by English speakers. The name of the wood is “Bois d’arc” (“Bow wood”), corrputed to “Bodark”. It is also called “Osage Orange” because of the tribe that inhabited the region, and the peculiar fruit of the tree, that looks very much like a green orange.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Volodymyr:

I did understand what you said, however. I know that much French, but not much more.

 

[Volodymyr]

Dear RidgeRunner of Ozarks:

Thank you for this explanation of USA names. That is most interesting. Your french seems very good - better than just a little. But by “poches rouges” do you mean “Peaux-Rouges” which is colonial expression for amerindiens?

But in any case, as I said (believing you to be francophone) - you are quite right. I may occasional be upset by what I think are misunderstanding of Western Catolics of my religion - I then am trying to defend my Church, or as Catolics say, the Church Mother. But I want to understand better Catolic views and work to make my country moral and happy by cooperation of all peoples especially Orthodox, Catolics, Jewish, Moslem.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Dear RidgeRunner of Ozarks:

Thank you for this explanation of USA names. That is most interesting. Your french seems very good - better than just a little. But by “poches rouges” do you mean “Peaux-Rouges” which is colonial expression for amerindiens?

But in any case, as I said (believing you to be francophone) - you are quite right. I may occasional be upset by what I think are misunderstanding of Western Catolics of my religion - I then am trying to defend my Church, or as Catolics say, the Church Mother. But I want to understand better Catolic views and work to make my country moral and happy by cooperation of all peoples especially Orthodox, Catolics, Jewish, Moslem.

It has been a long time since I have seen any reference to American Indians in French, so you might be right, and it makes better sense.

In no way do I blame you for wanting to defend your Church Volodymyr. I would wonder what was wrong with you if you did not. It is often difficult, in these threads, to know who is responding to what.

I think some wish for unity, and some do not. I don’t much think we, in here, can resolve those complex issues. If they are resolved, they will be resolved by the “diplomats” of both Churches. Sometimes it is well, among the faithful of both, to try to understand each other. But, of course, sometimes confrontation is what people want. Trying to separate the real issues from the arguments is sometimes not easy. I think, by hearing what at least some Orthodox (and Eastern Catholics as well) have said, I am beginning to think the real difference is actually in ways of thinking, which affects the way Easterners and Westerners think of God and approach Him. I cannot describe my inklings better than that.

By the way, Volodymyr, and I hope you agree with this. I think Westerners should, before thinking too much about Russia and the ROC, read all of A. Solzhenitzyn’s works. He is Orthodox, of course, and seems a seriously religious man to me. I find myself returning to the “Gulag” volumes time and again. I think he describes how men can become corrupted as well as anything I have ever read. Also, of course, he has insights into human redemption. He has contempt for those religious who became corrupt, as well as great admiration for those who did not. His description of Catholic Poles, Lithuanians and Western Ukrainians in the “Gulag” books tells me he has no hatred at all for true Orthodoxy or true Catholicism. I suspect if was up to him, each would always retain those things that are peculiar to them, but would reunite forthwith.

I would be interested to know what you think of him.

 

[Volodymyr]

I think Westerners should, before thinking too much about Russia and the ROC, read all of A. Solzhenitzyn’s works. He is Orthodox, of course, and seems a seriously religious man to me. I find myself returning to the “Gulag” volumes time and again. His description of Catholic Poles, Lithuanians and Western Ukrainians in the “Gulag” books tells me he has no hatred at all for true Orthodoxy or true Catholicism. I would be interested to know what you think of him.

Perhaps that would be a very good idea. But I am now русскоязычный and not российский (Russian-speaking but not of Russia - I am now a citizen of Ukraine). Therefore perhaps my views are different. Soljenitsyn describes the circles of Hell of Stalin’s time or he writes essays about “russian character”. Both of these are hard (heart wrenching, disturbing, etc) to read for those who have lived in Soviet Union and now in emerging states of CNG.

Particularly helpful to Western people should be his work Россия в Обвале (Russia in Collapse), in which he shows why Russians are as are and how to rebuild a new post Soviet state. He writes chapter discussing role of Orthodoxy on Russian character. Westerners who are interested in Russia and its current problems - will be helped a great deal to understand Russian mentality by reading this book.

 

[XtusVictor]

Interesting how the Orthodox avoid all discussion of the current oppression of Catholic in the former Soviet Union and the confiscation by the Orhtodox of thousands of churches from the Catholics. This is immoral.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Particularly helpful to Western people should be his work Россия в Обвале (Russia in Collapse), in which he shows why Russians are as are and how to rebuild a new post Soviet state. He writes chapter discussing role of Orthodoxy on Russian character. Westerners who are interested in Russia and its current problems - will be helped a great deal to understand Russian mentality by reading this book.

Unfortunately, not yet available from Amazon, but I will watch for it.

 

[XtusVictor]

However much Catholic may desire unity, it is likely still many generations away as the anti-Catholic prejudice of the Orthodox remains overwhelming.

 

[bobzills]

However much Catholic may desire unity, it is likely still many generations away as the anti-Catholic prejudice of the Orthodox remains overwhelming.

I really desire fervently to get an A or just a good grade in my Math class, but my teacher is prejudiced against me. It really doesn;t have anything to do with the situation that I would rather watch clowns or Peter, Paul and Mary folk dancing or the latest mariachi bands on TV instead of doing my homework, which is just too hard for me. Sure, I fail all my tests and don’t pass in any homework, but the real reason that I am failing this class is because the teacher just doesn’t like me.

 

[XtusVictor]

I really desire fervently to get an A or just a good grade in my Math class, but my teacher is prejudiced against me. It really doesn;t have anything to do with the situation that I would rather watch clowns or Peter, Paul and Mary folk dancing or the latest mariachi bands on TV instead of doing my homework, which is just too hard for me. Sure, I fail all my tests and don’t pass in any homework, but the real reason that I am failing this class is because the teacher just doesn’t like me.

Bob,

Seriously now. You underestimate the persecution that Catholic are enduring in the present at the hands of the Orthodox in the East. It is a true moral evil. There is absolutely no parallel to it in the West.

Again, you ideas about Western liturgy are ridiculously exaggerated. Again, your denigration of the liturgy will only do your own spiritual life harm. It is unhealthy to disparage the liturgy.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I started reading this thread because the OP Pope Urges Faithful to Long for Unity. The conversation has strayed from that quite a bit. But one post did catch my eye as as a point of discussion on things that separate RRC from EO. filioque , I vaguely remember that members of the EO have the Nicene Creed as "We believe in the Holy Spirit … who proceeds from the Father, here the RCC has We believe in the Holy Spirit … who proceeds from the Father and the Son. I find this interesting as since both believe in the Trinity, and ST, JOHN 14: 26 “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”

I read that it as Christ Jesus request GOD The Father to send the Holy Sprite to us I can see that both stances of the creed can be true HE definatly proceeds from the Father, but in doing so as we read in other Scripture that the Father and Son are one then He proceeds from Both Father and Son.

As the RCC holds the Divine revelation comes from both Holy Scripture and Tradition this would not seem to be a hindrance At all as With other church of the Eastern Rite that have comeing to communion with the Holy See in Rome the EO would not lose their Liturgy as it has come to them Through Sacred Tradition. And is not conflict with Church teaching.

Now let take on the next point and forget this talk of you did this and you did that is sound like a buch of 4 years olds.

Peace in the Lord
Scott

 

[XtusVictor]

I started reading this thread because the OP Pope Urges Faithful to Long for Unity. The conversation has strayed from that quite a bit. But one post did catch my eye as as a point of discussion on things that separate RRC from EO. filioque , I vaguely remember that members of the EO have the Nicene Creed as "We believe in the Holy Spirit … who proceeds from the Father, here the RCC has We believe in the Holy Spirit … who proceeds from the Father and the Son. I find this interesting as since both believe in the Trinity, and ST, JOHN 14: 26 “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”

I read that it as Christ Jesus request GOD The Father to send the Holy Sprite to us I can see that both stances of the creed can be true HE definatly proceeds from the Father, but in doing so as we read in other Scripture that the Father and Son are one then He proceeds from Both Father and Son.

As the RCC holds the Divine revelation comes from both Holy Scripture and Tradition this would not seem to be a hindrance At all as With other church of the Eastern Rite that have comeing to communion with the Holy See in Rome the EO would not lose their Liturgy as it has come to them Through Sacred Tradition. And is not conflict with Church teaching.

Now let take on the next point and forget this talk of you did this and you did that is sound like a buch of 4 years olds.

Peace in the Lord
Scott

This really isn’t a filique thread. Those went out with the Orthodox Forum, I presume. We no longer have an Orthodox Forum here.

 

[surgei]

I think some wish for unity, and some do not. I don’t much think we, in here, can resolve those complex issues. If they are resolved, they will be resolved by the “diplomats” of both Churches. Sometimes it is well, among the faithful of both, to try to understand each other. But, of course, sometimes confrontation is what people want. Trying to separate the real issues from the arguments is sometimes not easy. I think, by hearing what at least some Orthodox (and Eastern Catholics as well) have said, I am beginning to think the real difference is actually in ways of thinking, which affects the way Easterners and Westerners think of God and approach Him. I cannot describe my inklings better than that.

I think you are right on a couple accounts.
First we do think slightly different in the start and radically different in the end. Does this mean we have different faiths? By no means.
Second, I once emailed a priest with a logic problem my RC roomate and I came up with that concluded with either Church not having the Holy Spirit and not being saved. The good Scottsman of the Russian church responded “Oy vey, my head hurts” in typical Jewish form. He went on to say that this is problem Bishops started. This is a problem that Bishops have the grace to deal with. Let them deal with it. What we as lowere cleargy and laymen are to do is share our faith experiance when called upon. To this of course was the admonishon to pray.
Drift a long way off topic.
One of the things I love about Orthodoxy in America is the diversity it has. You can go to churches that are purely ethnic and those that are purely converts. In addition to the above Russian jurisdictional priest, I know a priest that has ancesters from China and Israel, a scottish last name and hoby (he plays the pipes) and is pastor of an Aribic jurisdictional parish made up of mostly converts and Russians. I also knew Bishop Mark Maymon before he was Bishop. He grew up RC, left faith, became a prof. at Oral Roberts and then came home to Orthodoxy. When he got here he just wanted to teach and attend Liturgy. He got hoodwinked into being a priest and then drew the short straw in deciding who would be bishop of the new territory that was created. (Ok, this is just how I see it. ) He does have some great pictures of serving the Liturgy with the MP on his website though.

 

[XtusVictor]

I think you are right on a couple accounts.
First we do think slightly different in the start and radically different in the end. Does this mean we have different faiths? By no means.
Second, I once emailed a priest with a logic problem my RC roomate and I came up with that concluded with either Church not having the Holy Spirit and not being saved. The good Scottsman of the Russian church responded “Oy vey, my head hurts” in typical Jewish form. He went on to say that this is problem Bishops started. This is a problem that Bishops have the grace to deal with. Let them deal with it. What we as lowere cleargy and laymen are to do is share our faith experiance when called upon. To this of course was the admonishon to pray.
Drift a long way off topic.
One of the things I love about Orthodoxy in America is the diversity it has. You can go to churches that are purely ethnic and those that are purely converts. In addition to the above Russian jurisdictional priest, I know a priest that has ancesters from China and Israel, a scottish last name and hoby (he plays the pipes) and is pastor of an Aribic jurisdictional parish made up of mostly converts and Russians. I also knew Bishop Mark Maymon before he was Bishop. He grew up RC, left faith, became a prof. at Oral Roberts and then came home to Orthodoxy. When he got here he just wanted to teach and attend Liturgy. He got hoodwinked into being a priest and then drew the short straw in deciding who would be bishop of the new territory that was created. (Ok, this is just how I see it. ) He does have some great pictures of serving the Liturgy with the MP on his website though.

Oh, if you want diversity, you literally cant beat the Catholic Church which is present in every nation, language, culture and tongue.

Orthodoxy will never escape being just the Eastern Church exported.

 

[surgei]

how the Orthodox avoid all discussion of the current oppression of Catholic in the former Soviet Union and the confiscation by the Orhtodox of thousands of churches from the Catholics. This is immoral.

Interesting how the Catholics don’t seek permission or blessing to build new ones in places they never had churches to begin with in order to bring about the “conversion of Russia” promised by “Our Lady of Fatima”. Interesting how Rome speaks of unity when talking to bishops and works for conversion when talking to the people. At least the protostants don’t pretend why they are there.
Ok now I just started a flame war didn’t I.
Hope not. This really was rattling around my melon for some time.
XtusVictor is bigger than that.

 

[XtusVictor]

Interesting how the Catholics don’t seek permission or blessing to build new ones in places they never had churches to begin with in order to bring about the “conversion of Russia” promised by “Our Lady of Fatima”. Interesting how Rome speaks of unity when talking to bishops and works for conversion when talking to the people. At least the protostants don’t pretend why they are there.
Ok now I just started a flame war didn’t I.
Hope not. This really was rattling around my melon for some time.
XtusVictor is bigger than that.

There is no need for a flame war. Just provide the proof of Catholic proselytizing in Russia.

Of course your habitual pressence here on a Catholic forum is perfect evidence of Orthodox proselytizing in the West. And the Antiochians are particularly aggressive.

Frankly, Rome needs no more permission to build a church in russia than the Orthodox need permission to build one in Rome. And the restraint of Catholics from proselytizing is enforced by Orthodox inspired law in Russia.

Orthodoxy in Russia is as absolutist as Putin’s government and is in fact a wing of his government as it has always been in Russia.

Catholics do not use the state to crush other religions as the Orthodox do.

By the way, it is good that you doxed. It suits your prejudices.

 

[surgei]

By the way, it is good that you doxed. It suits your prejudices.

At first I took offense to your use of the term “doxed”. Then I realized you were complamenting my worship in Spirit and in Truth.

 

[surgei]

Catholics do not use the state to crush other religions as the Orthodox do.

You’re right on one accont. That is the Catholics don’t use governments to crush their opostion, they have a marine death corp all their own in franciscans from Croatia.

By the way, it is good that you doxed. It suits your prejudices.

At first I thought you were ripping my Orthodox faith and, then I realized you wouldn’t be so crass you only recognize that I am now worshiping rightly. After all dox is worship.

 

[Volodymyr]

Unfortunately, Россия в обвале not yet available from Amazon, but I will watch for it.

RR aux arcs: This is not such a long book. It is on internet sait below. If you are interested can be translated by automatic translators Rus-Eng. Chapter on Orthodoxy will be helpful, I believe, for you.

geocities.com/solzh/Solzh/v_obvale_toc.html

 

[XtusVictor]

You’re right on one accont. That is the Catholics don’t use governments to crush their opostion, they have a marine death corp all their own in franciscans from Croatia.

At first I thought you were ripping my Orthodox faith and, then I realized you wouldn’t be so crass you only recognize that I am now worshiping rightly. After all dox is worship.

Actually, dox is for teaching or doctrine. Orthodoxy mean right teaching.

Still, neither you nor anyone else has proven Catholic evengelization in Russia. The ROC as a wing of Putin’s government is actively persecuting Catholics. Well done.