Pope 'Visibly Upset' Over Irish Abuse Report

[Catholic_Press]

DUBLIN (Reuters) - Pope Benedict was very upset by revelations that priests and nuns had beaten and raped children for many years in Irish industrial schools, the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin said on Monday.

More…

 

[Zundrah]

That’s terrible…
But we need to pray for their well being…:bible1: more important then anything.

 

[Miserissima]

The 18 orders named in the report,

18? Wow. I don’t know why I am so shocked by this number. 18 orders!

 

[Zundrah]

18? Wow. I don’t know why I am so shocked by this number. 18 orders!

It’s extra frightening because you thought you could look up to a priest and nun, don’t you?

 

[Miserissima]

Well, in both “Do Penance or Perish” and “Suffer the Little Children,” both books give accurate statistics of Industrial Schools / orphanages / homes for wayward women of that era – both Catholic and Protestant in both Ireland and England. Looks like the numbers are pretty evenly divided, but there are no Protestant “orders” to sue.

 

[Zundrah]

In a protestent church there is no priest and no bishop and no nuns. Every one gets ordained as a minister. They are all the same. It’s very different isn’t it?

 

[Miserissima]

First, I wanted to mention that Catholics and Protestants share equally in the abuse of the young in Ireland, as evidenced by the works I cited.

Second, there are Protestant priests and nuns. From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest: “Whilst Anglican priests who are members of religious orders must remain celibate, the secular clergy (bishops, priests, and deacons who are not members of religious orders) are permitted to marry before or after ordination.”

Last I checked, Anglicans are Protestants. And as I recall, there are Anglican Nuns, too, memorialized in Rumer Godden’s novel, Black Narcissus. they, too are missionaries and are most certainly not exempt from scandal, though I wish that were not the case with either denomination.

 

[Don_Schneider]

Although most people consider Anglicans to be Protestants, especially Episcopalians in the United States, there has traditionally been a distinction made between Anglicans and other Protestant religions, with their being in a sort of halfway category between Catholicism and Protestantism. Henry VIII always remained Catholic in all but name. (His differences with the Church had been strictly political, not religious.)

I don’t think that high Anglicans consider themselves to be Protestants, but rather a legitimate branch of Catholicism that recognizes the pope as the legitimate Bishop of Rome, though with no universal authority.

I think they still maintain this even though a previous pope ruled that their orders are not valid, something I don’t understand since they are descended from legitimately ordained, once Catholic prelates like Cranmer, heretics though they later became.

 

[Liraco]

Whether valid or not, Schneider, they are illicit. Still, it would be nice if the Anglicans would join the Church again if they are indeed “Catholic in everything but name”.

Sad news to read. I’ll be praying about it.

 

[Miserissima]

I don’t think that high Anglicans consider themselves to be Protestants, .

But the Church does:

I think they still maintain this even though a previous pope ruled that their orders are not valid…

Methodists have the the Order of St Luke, *"A religious order in the United Methodist Church dedicated to sacramental and liturgical *scholarship, education, and practice."

The Evangelical Sisterhood of Mary are Lutherans.

Here’s a short Time article about The Protestant Sisters.

Again, in reading that article, I have to draw from the non-fiction I read as the report was being compiled: there were almost equal amounts of cruelty from both the Protestant and Catholic institutions back them.

 

[manualman]

I don’t think that high Anglicans consider themselves to be Protestants, but rather a legitimate branch of Catholicism that recognizes the pope as the legitimate Bishop of Rome, though with no universal authority.

I think they still maintain this even though a previous pope ruled that their orders are not valid, something I don’t understand since they are descended from legitimately ordained, once Catholic prelates like Cranmer, heretics though they later became.

PM an Anglican member here named GKC for a fair and even handed explanation of why the Catholic Church doesn’t recognize Anglican apostolic succession. It has to do with an entire generation of them that went utterly Protestant in convictions and practices such that the legit Holy Orders died with the last of them before the doctrine and practices were reformed. At that point, it didn’t matter - you need BOTH a legitimate bishop AND the proper ordination liturgy to make a new priest or bishop. GKC is himself an Anglican, so he’ll give you both sides of the story.

Back on topic, the Irish abuse problem is indeed a horrifying one. It as blend of the same sexual horror we had here where predators were attracted to the Church as a means to their end and a unique cultural Irish harshness in discipline that I saw vestiges of in my own family (only 1/4 Irish blood left in me now!). More evidence than ever that we all need a Savior.

 

[Don_Schneider]

Dear Manualman:

Thank you for that clear explanation to my question. It’s understood and appreciated.

In regard to predators being attracted to the Church as a means to an end, I can’t agree with you here. If sexual predators simply wanted plausible access to boys, there are far less arduous, more expedient and more certain ways to achieve such than by committing one’s entire life to a vocation for which one has no genuine affinity.

Rather than taking the time to repeat my theory here, if you’re interested, please read my last response to Yellow Belle on the “Shocking Abuse [Ireland]” thread.

Being half Irish, I agree with you about the cultural discipline point.

Don

 

[aggiecatholic05]

It’s extra frightening because you thought you could look up to a priest and nun, don’t you?

plenty of us still do

 

[Zundrah]

plenty of us still do

I’ts creepy to think that you could have been in confession in a room with a priest this is a p*******e “you know what”…
It hurts more because stupid athius use this to argue with our faith.
I can’t believe that they did this. Why? There is soooo much evil in this world. All I can say is I am so glad I know christ.:heaven:

Any way, apparently it was the year 1024 when the catholic church had some split off into protestent. What exactly were they protesting about? And why did the pope let it happen?

 

[Don_Schneider]

Dear Zundrah:

The year 1024 was not the start of the Protestant Reformation. That came much later. The year 1024 saw the split between the Western Christian Church, which became known as the Roman Catholic Church, and the Eastern Christian churches, which became known collectively as the Orthodox Church.

The ostensive reason for the split was over the Filioque Clause which had been inserted into The Nicene Creed (which the Orthodox churches otherwise accept). The Eastern religious thinkers objected to such a fine point of theology inherent within the clause that it almost seems absurd to believe that it caused such tremendous upheaval and the resulting schism. There had been, of course, other underlying issues regarding the independence claimed by the Church of Constantinople.

The much later Protestant Reformation initiated by Martin Luther (1517) was originally over (especially) the sale of indulgences by the Church and to the entire underlying concept of indulgences which ultimately caused Luther to renounce the Catholic doctrine that salvation was by faith *and *good works in favor of his renowned “Justification by faith alone” thesis which became the cornerstone for all Protestant faiths (with the exception of the high Anglicans who do not consider themselves to be Protestants), though not the Orthodox churches (constituted by loosely affiliated national churches) which remain theologically much closer to the Catholic Church.

 

[Contarini]

First, I wanted to mention that Catholics and Protestants share equally in the abuse of the young in Ireland, as evidenced by the works I cited.

Second, there are Protestant priests and nuns. From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest: “Whilst Anglican priests who are members of religious orders must remain celibate, the secular clergy (bishops, priests, and deacons who are not members of religious orders) are permitted to marry before or after ordination.”

Last I checked, Anglicans are Protestants.

Anglican religious orders come from the Anglo-Catholic wing of Anglicanism. Anglo-Catholics generally do not consider themselves Protestants. I agree with you that historically Anglicanism is Protestant–in fact, I believe that the Anglo-Catholic refusal to be honest about Anglican history is one of the roots of the current problems within Anglicanism (essentially, they started a free-for-all in which anyone can make up their own version of “Anglican identity”). But as a matter of fact the formation of religious orders within Anglicanism was opposed in the 19th century precisely because it was seen as incompatible with Protestantism.

You’re right that there are religious orders of sorts among Methodists and Lutherans (though the OSL is more like a Catholic “third order”–there is no celibacy requirement, which I know because my wife is a member!). And Taize is an ecumenical monastery whose founder was Reformed (although he was allowed to receive communion in the Catholic Church, so perhaps this isn’t really a good example, since he seems to have considered himself Catholic as well as Reformed, and this seems to have been in some sense accepted by Pope JPII).

That isn’t really relevant to the broader issue that abuse is not confined to Catholics, or to celibate clergy/religious. It is possible that celibacy, for someone not truly called to it, can intensify psychological problems and lead to a greater likelihood of abusive behavior. But however likely this may seem to non-Catholics, it’s not clear to me that statistics bear this hypothesis out. Married people seem quite capable of abusive behavior.

Edwin

 

[mark_a]

First, I wanted to mention that Catholics and Protestants share equally in the abuse of the young in Ireland, as evidenced by the works I cited.

Second, there are Protestant priests and nuns. From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest: “Whilst Anglican priests who are members of religious orders must remain celibate, the secular clergy (bishops, priests, and deacons who are not members of religious orders) are permitted to marry before or after ordination.”

Last I checked, Anglicans are Protestants. And as I recall, there are Anglican Nuns, too, memorialized in Rumer Godden’s novel, Black Narcissus. they, too are missionaries and are most certainly not exempt from scandal, though I wish that were not the case with either denomination.

Please stop confusing us with facts.