Pope vows to study US criticism of his anti-capitalist rhetoric

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I doubt the capitalist system would exist without government to enforce it; and I said usurious contracts, not unspecified contracts. .

Capitalism would exist without any government.

Capitalism in it’s most primitive form is merely two people coming to an agreement on a transaction.

Both parties get what they want from the deal.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Capitalism would exist without any government.

Capitalism in it’s most primitive form is merely two people coming to an agreement on a transaction.

Both parties get what they want from the deal.

Except it doesn’t work very well when there is no government to enforce contracts and protect property rights.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Capitalism doesn’t exist anywhere in a pure form.

The closer we can get the better, though.

Government interference should be kept to the minimum level necessary.

That is the problem with capitalism, it cannot exist in its pure form if there is a government involved. If it exist without government, it won’t work very well, because without protecting property rights and enforcing contracts transactions will be much more limited. So capitalism as it exists, has some significant issues.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

That is the problem with capitalism, it cannot exist in its pure form if there is a government involved. If it exist without government, it won’t work very well, because without protecting property rights and enforcing contracts transactions will be much more limited. So capitalism as it exists, has some significant issues.

Capitalism is better than any other system.

Other systems give one man too much power over another.

 

[zz912]

On the other hand, I also know plenty of businessmen who feel the opposite as well. Some don’t care about their employees and will do whats right for themselves and could care less what happens to the employees. One would hope that a Catholic businessman or woman gives some thought to the wellbeing of their employees. But there is little inherent in capitalism that would bring that about. For example, I know a CPA firm that has routinely hired accounting graduates and portrayed it as a permanent position. What they meant was permanent until the end of tax season. Now that is a sleazy thing to do in my opinion, but morality might encourage honesty about the nature of the position but capitalism won’t.

Sure there is. A business that treats its employees poorly gets a reputation very quickly as being an awful place to work. And they start getting the worst candidates to hire because good employees don’t continue to work there.

With lower quality employees, quality of the product goes down, turnover increases, and expenses increase. Profitability can suffer tremendously when employees aren’t respected in the free market.

 

[zz912]

Capitalism is, in a nutshell, a system of state sponsored usury; a system in which the government enforces the validity of usurious contracts.

I doubt the capitalist system would exist without government to enforce it; and I said usurious contracts, not unspecified contracts. That makes all the difference in the world.

Your typical mortgage contract is usurious. Credit card debt is notoriously usurious, as is student loan debt. The government enforces the validity of this usury. Try suing in court to get out of paying the interest on your credit card or student loan, or your mortgage. The capitalist system could not exist without the government.

So when I go to Chickfila, and buy a number 1 meal, they are charging me usury?

What about when I go to Staples and purchase Microsoft Windows for my computer? Is that usury?

What amount of interest rate is usury?

 

[EasterJoy]

Capitalism would exist without any government.

Capitalism in it’s most primitive form is merely two people coming to an agreement on a transaction.

Both parties get what they want from the deal.

Close, but not quite. Capitalism involves a property owner combining the use of his property with the labor of others in order to produce something that can be sold at a profit, whether that is agricultural products or whether it is adding value to raw materials.

The Bible is not silent on the operation of capitalism. It recognizes the advantage that the owner of capital has over those who bring labor to the “deal” of capitalism. The employer can fire the worker who does not work, and does not have to pay for the work until it is done. What leverage does the worker have, though? He is vulnerable to being treated unfairly by the one who makes a great profit from his work but does not share the fruits of their joint enterprise fairly. This is why the Bible requires the owners of capital to use justice in their treatment of those who contribute their labor in the equation of capitalism:

You shall not defraud a poor and needy hired servant, whether he be one of your own countrymen or one of the aliens who live in your communities. You shall pay him each day’s wages before sundown on the day itself, since he is poor and looks forward to them. Otherwise he will cry to the LORD against you, and you will be held guilty. Deut. 24:14-15

Come now, you rich, weep and wail over your impending miseries. Your wealth has rotted away, your clothes have become moth-eaten, your gold and silver have corroded, and that corrosion will be a testimony against you; it will devour your flesh like a fire. You have stored up treasure for the last days. Behold, the wages you withheld from the workers who harvested your fields are crying aloud, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and pleasure; you have fattened your hearts for the day of slaughter. James 5:1-5

Woe to him who builds his house on wrong, his terraces on injustice; Who works his neighbor without pay, and gives him no wages. Jer. 22:13

I will draw near to you for judgment, and I will be swift to bear witness Against the sorcerers, adulterers, and perjurers, those who defraud the hired man of his wages, Against those who defraud widows and orphans; those who turn aside the stranger, and those who do not fear me, says the LORD of hosts. Malachi 3:5

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Close, but not quite. Capitalism involves a property owner combining the use of his property with the labor of others in order to produce something that can be sold at a profit, whether that is agricultural products or whether it is adding value to raw materials.

Not necessarily. Capitalism involves far more than property owners. How about a man who rents a food cart and sells hot dogs? Is he a capitalist? You don’t have to have employees to be a capitalist.

All participants in free transactions can be called capitalists, even those simply buying the goods they choose.

 

[EasterJoy]

Capitalism is better than any other system.

Other systems give one man too much power over another.

All systems give opportunities to those who would be opportunists. This is why justice always needs advocates willing to make sacrifices on her behalf. Over and over again, the prophets make the duty of the strong to be advocates for the weak. When the weak are neglected or exploited and cry out to the Lord, the Lord hears their cry. Our society is so big now, almost anyone can be made weak, if the circumstances are wrong.

The systems that are inherently unjust deny rights such as the right to own personal property or make undue imposition on the rights of people to make their own decisions about how to make a dignified life for themselves or make some select portion of society bear the consequences of the whole society’s decisions in an unfair way or neglect the duty of a civilized society towards those who are vulnerable and poor. The prophets all talk about how the widow, the orphan, and the stranger are treated, and makes it clear that God expects these vulnerable ones to be looked out for by the strong.

There is nothing inherently unjust about capitalism, although it carries a particular risk that the owners of capital might take unjust advantage of the workers. With vigilance, it can be a just system. Likewise, democracy can be direct or representational; either can be just. Other systems have to be examined on a case-by-case basis. I cannot presume to talk about all systems that anyone could ever come up with, but most in our time have come up short, either in theory or in actual practice.

 

[gnjsdad]

So when I go to Chickfila, and buy a number 1 meal, they are charging me usury?

What about when I go to Staples and purchase Microsoft Windows for my computer? Is that usury?

No and no. You are confusing price (which may or may not be just) with usury.

zz912:

What amount of interest rate is usury?

The rate doesn’t matter. While there is much confusion over what constitutes “interest”, Church teaching is quite clear: If it compounds over time, it is usury no matter what the rate.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Capitalism is better than any other system.

Other systems give one man too much power over another.

I agree that capitalism is better than all the other systems. That does not mean that it does not deserve criticism.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Sure there is. A business that treats its employees poorly gets a reputation very quickly as being an awful place to work. And they start getting the worst candidates to hire because good employees don’t continue to work there.

With lower quality employees, quality of the product goes down, turnover increases, and expenses increase. Profitability can suffer tremendously when employees aren’t respected in the free market.

You are assuming that there is perfect information, if that were the case, then yes the market would punish bad employers. Even with imperfect information bad employers get some punishment, but they are still able to attract employees through imperfect information.

 

[zz912]

You are assuming that there is perfect information, if that were the case, then yes the market would punish bad employers. Even with imperfect information bad employers get some punishment, but they are still able to attract employees through imperfect information.

True, but they don’t retain them very long because those employees gain perfect information very quickly while working for them.

 

[zz912]

No and no. You are confusing price (which may or may not be just) with usury.

You are the one who said that capitalism was usury. I gave two examples of capitalism without any interest charged. So explain how capitalism is defined by usury.

The rate doesn’t matter. While there is much confusion over what constitutes “interest”, Church teaching is quite clear: If it compounds over time, it is usury no matter what the rate.

Please cite this Church teaching.

 

[Peccavi]

Sociologists of religion likePeter L. BergerandDavid Martinhave interpreted the Protestant revolution inLatin Americaas implicit support of basic elements of Max Weber’s thesis that Capitalism was a Protestant driven ethic. At any rate, many pious persons now interpret their transition from the Roman-Catholic church to ProtestantPentecostalcongregations in terms of a moral idea that promises long-term economic gains through strong innerworldly asceticism. The strict ascetic self-discipline that has been successfully institutionalized in the Pentecostal congregations, the readiness to work more and with greater effort and to take less leisurely attitudes lead many Pentecostal Christians to believe that their new faith in God is supported by their economic successes. The Catholic Church never fully subscribed to the Capitalist Ethic, at least not in Europe.

 

[Darryl1958]

Joie de Vivre is more of a Catholic term for sure.

Seeing wealth as a sign of God’s favor, and yet believing that indulging in the fruits of one’s wealth as a temptation from the devil is the Calvinist path to great capital accumulation, which in turn drives more investment.