Pope vs Cardinal immigration

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Hi,

I’m confused about who I have to believe. I know we have to be obedient to the Pope and to Cardinals. I’m just confused about how to be obedient to both-Pope Francis and Cardinal Burke seem to say opposing things about Islam. Burke says some Muslim migrants are opportunists while Francis says that we should not distinguish between economic migrants and refugees.

Thanks!
 
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FCS said:
Burke says Muslims are opportunists while Francis says that Islam is not a terrorist religion.
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I’m not going to comment much beyond saying that being an opportunist and not being a terrorist are two different, though not mutually excluding, things.
 
Islam is a bit like Protestantism. There all sorts of variations in it.

As I see it, neither statement is exactly correct, or at least not exclusive. Islam is strange in that all branches of Sunni Islam acknowledge something called the “Doctrine of Abrogation”. Islam had a problem that it took a long time to resolve. Earlier parts of the Koran contradicted later parts. So eventually Islamic scholars in the Middle Ages came up with that doctrine. It says that later revelations from Allah supersede earlier ones.

Problem is, the later ones are the warlike ones that talk about warring on Christians and Jews and forcing them to accept Islam, unlike the earlier verses which are more peaceful and tolerant.

So Muslims now have the problem that if they accept the Doctrine like they’re supposed to, they really can’t claim to be a peaceful or tolerant religion. Worse, they’re required to make war on “infidels”.

However, there is another part of the Doctrine that saves them. It says that if the Infidels are too strong to defeat, a Muslim is excused from warring against them. So right now the “infidel” (that’s the west) is too strong for Islam to defeat. So Muslims are excused from fighting…except those (like ISIS) who believe they’re strong enough to take on the Infidels, and there is a certain logic to their position because they can (and do) shift where they are in the world and where they strike.
 
FCS said:
I know we have to be obedient to the Pope and to Cardinals.
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I know we have to be in unity with the Pope. Tell me more about this notion of obedience (as you understand it, because I think we have two different things in mind). After that, my “allegiance” lies with my bishop, not Burke. IMO, he’s off the rails.
 
I’m not sure what the Pope believes about immigration. I can’t tell if he basically wants a “free-for-all” with people pouring over the border, or if he actually cares that sovereign nations have the right to establish laws which allow for controlled and orderly entry into a country. No other country than the US has taken in as many immigrants from all over the world over the last 100 years, but the Holy Father specifically seems to single out the US as some kind of immigrant-averse country. In short, it just seems that he wants countries to allow unchecked entry across their borders, and if they don’t do that then they’re not Christian, xenophobic, racist, etc.
 
FCS said:
Hi,

I’m confused about who I have to believe. I know we have to be obedient to the Pope and to Cardinals. I’m just confused about how to be obedient to both-Pope Francis and Cardinal Burke seem to say opposing things about Islam. Burke says some Muslim migrants are opportunists while Francis says that we should not distinguish between economic migrants and refugees.

Thanks!
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Well, from an obedience standpoint the answer is pretty obvious. Pope Francis is your Pope, you fall under his authority. Cdl. Burke is not your Cardinal, you do not fall under his authority.

As to which one is correct, I believe each Catholic remains responsible for following their own well-formed conscience. Mine tells me that Pope Francis is more correct on this issue than Cdl. Burke. Obviously some people disagree.
 
I understood that we must obey what our Bishops, Cardinals, Archbishops say.
 
I don’t believe we are to blindly follow every word that issues from their mouths, but thank you for clarifying.
 
You and Cardinal Burke both owe allegiance to the Pope. So you can follow the Cardinal, since he must be united with the Pope.

OTOH, if you think he cardinal is not obedient, his status as a papal advisor does not seem viable.
 
I think immigration issues and policies regarding the United States are very complicated whether it is Muslim migrants, immigrants from Latin America, Irish immigrants or even grad students. You should read up on it and get your own understanding. Then try to put what the Pope or Cardinal Burke are saying in the perspective of your own understanding.

I’ve never been of big fan about going into detail about US immigration in a homily. There is too much to consider. There are too many legitimate and opposing viewpoints to understand in 10 or 15 minutes.
 
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bobperk said:
No other country than the US has taken in as many immigrants from all over the world over the last 100 years,
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IMHO this something that requires serious reflection. Immigration that sounds so obvious and natural was not so when it originally happened, Catholic Irish and Italian immigrants among them. The Irish were considered disposable labor for a good period of time. It must not be forgotten that laws were passed to limit immigration to those deemed “desirable” in this last century.

Honestly is doesn’t matter what we have done. It matters what we can do. One is to separate those who come here who are not criminals, past the fact that they broke through our barriers, from those who are the real criminals. The drug cartels have the money to circumvent us or they use expendable people to carry out their deeds. What kind of people have we become when we sentence serious jail time to people who simply provide unquestioned humanitarian support to those in mortal danger from dehydration?
 
That is an interesting idea, and a good way to avoid hypocrisy. It is an application of the Golden Rule, even if that offends people. It is the “No real Scotsman” fallacy.

Personally, I have not seen the contradiction between the Pope and Cardinal Burke. Sure, they have differing perspectives, but that does not equate to a contradiction.
 
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Apples and oranges.

On the one hand, you have immigrants, a portion of which are radical and seeking to establish a beachhead. 9/11 for example. Yet, that does not apply to all. On the other hand, you have genuine refugees from violence and those who are seeking employment where there may be none.
 
A nation without borders is no nation at all. We have a right to protect our borders against ILLEGAL immigration.
 
Cardinal Burke is one of the most faithful Catholics in his words. I enjoy watching him when he appears on EWTN’s “The World Over” and other Catholic shows. Cardinal Burke is a truly courageous Catholic.
But I wish people would stop trying to create 2 tribes in that if we respect one person, then we must be against another.
 
One needs to understand why many European countries are so rich that it attracts immigrants?
Take the case of Britian and France the loot during the colonial times was so much that they became so rich and later it became hotspots for economic migrants. God is a god of justice too
 
It should also be considered that many countries encourage immigration however they can get it because their workforce is getting older and they need young people to replace retirees. However at the same time the existing population does not want foreigners in their communities.

Either way the people that most suffer the most are the poor, refugees and migrants since they are marginalized and treated like they are all possible terrorists, free loaders, criminals or carriers of diseases. It’s been this way for centuries unfortunately.
 
Pope Francis may have authority over us, but when he talks about immigration politics, I would just ignore that. Kinda like when he says something confusing and “Vatican officials” have to correct him but he goes back on what he said and makes it sound even worse. He’s kinda like your uncle that you visit twice a year on Christmas and Easter who’s really out of touch with the rest of the family.
 
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