Pope vs some Nigerian priests

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Saint_Anthony8 said:
Saint Catherine of Sienna is not infallible. TheTrinitySaves has the right to think whatever he wants. As do the rest of us.
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The Pope is supreme and must be obeyed at all times.

Lumen Gentium 25:

“In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.”

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
 
PluniaZ said:
The Pope is supreme and must be obeyed at all times.

Lumen Gentium 25:

“In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.”

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
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This is wrong.
 
Pope Gregory VII:

“He himself may be judged by no one.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatus_papae

Saint Thomas Aquinas:

“The administration of this kingdom, therefore, is entrusted not to earthly kings, but to priests, so that spiritual and earthly things may be kept distinct; and in particular to the Supreme Priest, the successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ, the Roman Pontiff, to whom all the kings of the Christian people should be subject, as if to the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.”

[(name removed by moderator).uw.edu.pl/mdsie/Polit…%20Aquinas.pdf](http://www.(name removed by moderator).uw.edu.pl/mdsie/Polit…%20Aquinas.pdf)

Pope Boniface VIII:

“But if the highest power of all err, it can be judged only by God, and not by man.”

papalencyclicals.net/bon08/b8unam.htm

Saint Catherine of Siena:

“For divine obedience never prevents us from obedience to the Holy Father: nay, the more perfect the one, the more perfect is the other. And we ought always to be subject to his commands and obedient unto death. However indiscreet obedience to him might seem, and however it should deprive us of mental peace and consolation, we ought to obey; and I consider that to do the opposite is a great imperfection, and deceit of the devil.”

drawnbylove.com/Scudder%20letters.htm

Pope Pius II:

“Do you not know, you miserable man, that only divine authority binds the Roman Bishop? The Pope is only subject to Holy Scripture, revealed by the hand of God, and he is not bound by decrees of men. ”But we say that the pope is subject to reason, and the power of the Church is given for edification and not for destruction.” But even if you believe the Bishop of Rome to be in error, that does not give you the right to judge him, for only God can judge the Pope. No mortal man may accuse him of faults. Oh, how wrong is the opinion of many men: though they do not allow a king’s subjects to have any say against the king, they would allow it in the case of the pope even if God has given him power over all mortal men. Those stupid men are unconcerned that the Holy Apostolic Church has, from Saint Peter to this day, never been heard to teach anything that is contrary to orthodox faith. This privilege it has received from the Lord that it shall never succumb to wrong teachings for the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Let this suffice concerning your praise of the Apostolic See.”

hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01184531/document

Code of Canon Law:

“No appeal or recourse is permitted against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff.”

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P16.HTM
 
I’m not sure why people are so argumentative when it comes to Pope Francis.

He’s really said nothing that any Pope hasn’t said before him… He might be more vocal on social issues than others, but it’s nothing new.
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
Have you ever heard of the verse when “Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men”.

We only “submit” to God, not men. Men are imperfect, even our pope.
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All of these priests swore an oath of obedience to this pope. Are you encouraging them to break that oath?
 
abucs said:
Does anyone have a link outlining from the rebel priests perspective on why they are not accepting the appointed bishop?

Thanks.
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It is my understanding that they are upset because this bishop is not from there tribe but from a neighboring tribe.😦
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
How?
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Look up “straw man fallacy”.

The power to appoint bishops has always been the Holy Father’s prerogative and lies exclusively within his authority. He does get recommended lists, but is not bound by them.

In this case, the Holy Father is due unquestioned obedience by the authority of his Office with which comes the authority to name bishops, archbishops and cardinals.
 
OraLabora said:
Look up “straw man fallacy”.

The power to appoint bishops has always been the Holy Father’s prerogative and lies exclusively within his authority. He does get recommended lists, but is not bound by them.

In this case, the Holy Father is due unquestioned obedience by the authority of his Office with which comes the authority to name bishops, archbishops and cardinals.
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I didn’t commit any straw man fallacy. Another thread plutia said that perfect obedience was required to the Pope. No exceptions. So I’m still looking for an answer to my simple question on weather if the pope told you to jump off a cliff would you do it
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
I didn’t commit any straw man fallacy. Another thread plutia said that perfect obedience was required to the Pope. No exceptions. So I’m still looking for an answer to my simple question on weather if the pope told you to jump off a cliff would you do it
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And that, besides being a logical fallacy, is a straw-man question.
 
otjm said:
And that, besides being a logical fallacy, is a straw-man question.
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No its not, its just your way of trying to avoid answering an extremely simple answer. I pointed out a major flaw in Plunia’s arguement of COMPLETE OBEDIENCE NO MATTER WHAT.

Those are his words, and now I am asking if that is in reality absolute.

And all you can pitifully and sadly grunt out is “Strawman fallacy”.

Instead of answering a simple question, which you continue to refuse to answer.

That alone speaks volumes.
 
OraLabora said:
Look up “straw man fallacy”.

The power to appoint bishops has always been the Holy Father’s prerogative and lies exclusively within his authority. He does get recommended lists, but is not bound by them.

In this case, the Holy Father is due unquestioned obedience by the authority of his Office with which comes the authority to name bishops, archbishops and cardinals.
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Thats not what we are talking about anymore. Plunia brought up that we have to be perfectly obedient to the pope under all circumstances.

Read.
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
No its not, its just your way of trying to avoid answering an extremely simple answer. I pointed out a major flaw in Plunia’s arguement of COMPLETE OBEDIENCE NO MATTER WHAT.

Those are his words, and now I am asking if that is in reality absolute.

And all you can pitifully and sadly grunt out is “Strawman fallacy”.

Instead of answering a simple question, which you continue to refuse to answer.

That alone speaks volumes.
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No, it is your ignorance that speaks volumes. You asked an unintelligent question. It is close to a par with the question “can God create a rock so big He cannot move it?”

Questions such as " if the pope told you to jump off a cliff would you do it" are ignored because they are sophomoric, baiting, straw man, and the rest of us have better things to do. You already know the answer to your question, but the answer does not disprove the statement you refer to.
 
otjm said:
No, it is your ignorance that speaks volumes. You asked an unintelligent question. It is close to a par with the question “can God create a rock so big He cannot move it?”

Questions such as " if the pope told you to jump off a cliff would you do it" are ignored because they are sophomoric, baiting, straw man, and the rest of us have better things to do. You already know the answer to your question, but the answer does not disprove the statement you refer to.
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I guess thats just an extremely insulting way of admitting I was right. And it does disprove the statement. The pope is not God, he does not get our blind allegiance. I would do anything God commanded, I would not do anything the pope commanded me to do. Simply because he is human.

Have a nice time crying about losing this arguement.
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
I guess thats just an extremely insulting way of admitting I was right. And it does disprove the statement. The pope is not God, he does not get our blind allegiance. I would do anything God commanded, I would not do anything the pope commanded me to do. Simply because he is human.

Have a nice time crying about losing this arguement.
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I didn’t lose any argument as you have not made one. If you want flail about, be my guest; the more you say, the more you revel how little you understand.

My comment might have been insulting, but it most certainly does not admit you are right.

And just for your information, no one here has said the Pope is God. What you fail to understand is that the pope is the final authority in disciplinary actions concerning the Church, and no one here has said any different.

the Pope has the sole authority to appoint bishops. In past history of the Church, that has been different, as between the time of Constantine and subsequent, civil authorities had more or less influence; Eventually, the authority to appoint bishops was removed from civilian influence, and now resides solely with the Pope.

In the military, there is what is referred to as a chain of command. while the Church may not express it exactly that way, priests are under the authority of the duly appointed bishop. Refusal to obey lawful orders of a bishop can result in a priest being laicized. While ontologically he is still a priest, he no longer has the authority to administer the sacraments (with very limited exceptions). Should he persist in doing so after having been laicized, it might be possible he could be excommunicated. So if the Pope says to priests, “This is your lawful bishop”, their complaint that the bishop was not drawn from their own tribe is is not going to obtain any traction. The Pope has the final say.

As to the laity who may not want to accept the Bishop, there may be other steps the Pope could take, but it is more likely he won’t, but rather ignore their protests until they blow over for the major part.

No, you were not right, and no one is crying.
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
I didn’t commit any straw man fallacy. Another thread plutia said that perfect obedience was required to the Pope. No exceptions. So I’m still looking for an answer to my simple question on weather if the pope told you to jump off a cliff would you do it
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The Pope has complete authority over ecclesiastical government and Church disciplines. He does not have authority over what colour car I buy or what I have for supper, or whether or not I should jump off a cliff.

Your comparison is still a straw man and as otjm said, sophomoric, and completely besides the point of the matter at hand: whether priests should obey the pope’s selection as their bishop.
 
OraLabora said:
The Pope has complete authority over ecclesiastical government and Church disciplines. He does not have authority over what colour car I buy or what I have for supper, or whether or not I should jump off a cliff.

Your comparison is still a straw man and as otjm said, sophomoric, and completely besides the point of the matter at hand: whether priests should obey the pope’s selection as their bishop.
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Instead of actually discussing the point, you resort to pathetic insults and refuse to discuss the topic.

Thats not what is being said. The post above me says the pope deserves unquestioned obedience.

So instead acting like a child in a temper tantrum, or a child who just got caught with his hand in the cookie jar, lets actually have a discussion
 
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