Pope Wants Juridical Statute in Greece

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FR. Ambrose:

Do you mean this Synod of Milan?

The Holy Synod of Milan is the Diocese for Western Europe of that Old Calendarist Greek Orthodox Church which (after receiving a Hierarchy with the aid of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia) was united under Archbishops Akakios and Auxentios. This Diocese was granted a Tomos of Autonomy in 1984 from Archbishop Auxentios in order to pursue missionary work among the non-Orthodox people of the West. The title of the Synod at this time was the Metropolia of Western Europe. After the transference of its first Chief Hierarch, Metropolitan Gabriel of Portugal, to the Autocephalous Church of Poland, Bishop Evloghios of Milan was chosen as second Chief Hierarch. Ten years later, Metropolitan Evloghios remains at the helm of the Holy Synod of Bishops. The Milan Synod uses the Julian calendar exclusively, and firmly resists the heresies of false ecumenism and trans-religious syncretism.

odox.net/Synod.htm

Photos

odox.net/Synod-Photos.htm

THE following is a very brief documentation of the origins of the Milan Synod. The apostolicity of our Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of Milan, Western Europe, and the Americas derives from the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (Russian Church Abroad, ROCA, ROCOR) through the Greek Old Calendar Orthodox Church headed by Abps. Akakios (Pappas) and Auxentios. Thus we are one of the “Florinite” Old Calendar churches. Not all Hierarchs assisting in consecrations are named, but the chief consecrator is always named.

onr.com/user/milan/History.htm
Fr Ambrose:
Are you aware of that the Vatican demanded that the thousands of Catholics who converted to Orthodoxy in northern Italy after Vatican II should be abandoned by the Russian Orthodox Church? The Vatican claimed that the Orthodox were proselytizing on Catholic territory? Now, ironically, they are doing it themselves in Russia! The dreadful thing is that the Russians caved in to Catholic pressure and simply abandoned all those Italian parishes. Most now form part of the non-canonical “Synod of Milan.” Is this the treatment from the Catholics which you would approve of for the Orthodox, as per your questions above?

Do you not mind that the Catholics did this to our Lord and His people in Northern Italy? Are you proud of their actions?
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Fr. Ambrose, It seems as if they are still doing their missionary work, have plenty of episcopal oversight, and are thriving…It also seems as if they are multinational and multiethnic.

If you want to blame their schism on anything, blame it on their adherence to the Old Calendar and on ROCOR.

beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?discussionID=395069
And following pages.

I’m sorry, but unless you can show me something that dramatically opposes the picture they present of themselves, I’m going to have to deny your point.

On the other hand, the Greek government has a historic policy of throwing obstacles in the way of Non-Orthodox Christians. Unless you can show me that that has changed, my question stands.

Blessings and Peace, Michael
 
Fr Ambrose, we want religous freedom like in the Western, why only a greek could be a orthodox, it´s unfair, and is very similar to the islamic countries, when we choose freedom religion isn´t for losing only ours faithfuls but for everywhere and for everyody.
 
Dear Fr. Ambrose:
Originally Posted by Traditional Ang
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The Vatican is complaining that the Catholic Church is NOT being provided the LEGAL PROTECTIONS that would allow them to build the churches that you claim would be needed to take care of all of those Catholics.
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Fr. Ambrose observed:
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Would you be able to substantiate this extraordinarily nasty accusation.
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That’s not a nasty accusation by TradAng; it is a fact.

During the presentation of the new Greek Ambassador’s credentials to the Vatican, which is the originator of this discussion, he was reminded of the bilateral agreement between the Holy See and Greece, specifically the grant of the juridical status of the Catholic Church in Greece, the only country in the EU which has not done so.

All countries which have full diplomatic relations with the Holy See (174 thus far) have complied or are complying with the provisions of bilateral agreements. Even Russia and the PLO, which have only special diplomatic missions to the Holy See, have complied.
 
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Amadeus:
Dear Fr. Ambrose:

That’s not a nasty accusation by TradAng; it is a fact…
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It is untrue. It amounts to Orthodox bashing and should be retracted.

Michael asserted that Catholics are unable to build churches in Greece.

Here are his words:

“The don’t go out and build their own buildings, because they don’t have the LEGAL PROTECTIONS needed to do that on the scale needed.”

Well, they have as much protection as the Microsoft buildings in Greece built by Bill Gates, or the Macdonalds restaurants, or the banks or the insurance buildings. In other words, they have as much legal protection as any other building in Greece, or in my country or in yours.

Trad.Ang is speaking of things which he does not know and is putting an anti-Orthodox spin on things. Why?
 
Fr Ambrose:
It is untrue. It amounts to Orthodox bashing and should be retracted.

Michael asserted that Catholics are unable to build churches in Greece.

Here are his words:

“The don’t go out and build their own buildings, because they don’t have the LEGAL PROTECTIONS needed to do that on the scale needed.”

Well, they have as much protection as the Microsoft buildings in Greece built by Bill Gates, or the Macdonalds restaurants, or the banks or the insurance buildings. In other words, they have as much legal protection as any other building in Greece, or in my country or in yours.

Trad.Ang is speaking of things which he does not know and is putting an anti-Orthodox spin on things. Why?
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There is some hardship in trying to build parishes for non-Orthodox because the government will not give license to those whom the Greek Orthodox bishops resist. In otherwords, if Bishop X said he doesn’t like it, no parish will be built , and there are no appeals.
 
Michael_Thoma:
There is some hardship in trying to build parishes for non-Orthodox because the government will not give license to those whom the Greek Orthodox bishops resist. In otherwords, if Bishop X said he doesn’t like it, no parish will be built , and there are no appeals.
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Please give me ONE example (city, location, year) where the Catholics wanted to build a church and they were not given building permission.

In actual fact there are about 17 Catholic churches in Greece, and the Catholic authorities have no interest in building any more.

We are told on this Forum that these 17 churches are for 200,000 Catholics. Either this means that Catholics in Greece don’t bother to go to church very much, or those churches are the size of football fields 😃

All the same, I hope you will back up your accusation.
 
I doubt the Orthodox will make much of an allowance for potential rivals. While doing research for a paper I came across this quote from Patriarch Theophylast of Constantinople concerning the Bogomil heresy which sprang up among the slavs in the 9th century:

To Tsar Petar:

“Those who will remain in evil, sick from non-repentance, will be cut out of God’s church as rotten and malignant parts and will be delivered for eternal damnation… The social laws of Christianity prescribe death for them, especially when it is apparent that the evil drags even deeper, progresses and kills many people.”

Thanks goodness that even for the Eastern Church some laws can change. 😃
 
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Grolsch:
I doubt the Orthodox will make much of an allowance for potential rivals. While doing research for a paper I came across this quote from Patriarch Theophylast of Constantinople concerning the Bogomil heresy which sprang up among the slavs in the 9th century:
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How does a letter from a Patriarch to an Emperor in the 9th century connect with a malicious accusation that Catholics in Greece cannot build churches in the 21st?

Why, there was a time in the 12th century when Catholics raped our nuns and set a prostitute dancing on the altar - but that has nothing to do with the Orthodox in Catholic Italy today -unless you have heard that this is happening in Italy these days? :eek:
 
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HagiaSophia:
John Paul II wants the minority Catholic Church in Greece to be given a juridical statute in that country, as is the case in the rest of the European Union.
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It just struck me how funny this is. 🙂 The Pope has demanded and apparently received a “juridical statute” from the countries of the EU when he and Vatican State are actually excluded from the EU because of his country’s 1) discriminatory practices against women, and 2) the utter lack of democracy in the government of Vatican State.

Perhaps the Pope should correct these abuses in his own state before making demands and criticising a modern democratic state such as Greece? Something to ponder…
 
Fr Ambrose:
How does a letter from a Patriarch to an Emperor in the 9th century connect with a malicious accusation that Catholics in Greece cannot build churches in the 21st?

Why, there was a time in the 12th century when Catholics raped our nuns and set a prostitute dancing on the altar - but that has nothing to do with the Orthodox in Catholic Italy today -unless you have heard that this is happening in Italy these days? :eek:
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I dunno, certain people have given the impression that Orthodox doctrine never changes. I could be wrong. I hope so. I’d hate to be executed by the Orthodox for being a Catholic. :eek:

😛
 
Traditional Ang:
I’m sorry, but unless you can show me something that dramatically opposes the picture they present of themselves, I’m going to have to deny your point.
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In the aftermath of Vatican II, there was a widespread disappointment with the Roman Church in Western Europe.

An example: the entire town of Ivrea, near Milan, with a population of some 2,000 souls at the time, converted to Orthodoxy, or rather returned to Orthodoxy, ca. 1966, under the Western Rite and the Moscow Patriarchate.

There was a detailed article about it at the time, in a publication called AREO (American Review of Eastern Orthodoxy.)

Subsequently, however, the late Metropolitan Nikodim “froze out” this parish of Ivrea and similar parishes in northern Italy, at the request of Rome and in the hope that Rome would also give up the Ukrainian Uniates.

It was these Orthodox Christians, denied the freedom and choice to continue as Orthodox Christians by the Vatican, who then became (some of them) the uncanonical Milan Synod. This is a dark chapter in the history of religious freedom in modern Italy, supressed by both the Vatican and the Russian Church. They numbered about the same as the Greek Catholics in Greece but they have received no help or sympathy.
On the other hand, the Greek government has a historic policy of throwing obstacles in the way of Non-Orthodox Christians. Unless you can show me that that has changed, my question stands.
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And the Vatican doesn’t??!!! Do you know the immense difficulties placed in the way of building the Russian church of Saint Catherine in Rome. It is only now being built. I provided a photograph in an earlier post.

But it was you who made the accusation and I would think that it is up to you to justify it or retract it.

This is what you wrote…
Originally Posted by Traditional Ang:
The Vatican is complaining that the Catholic Church is NOT being provided the LEGAL PROTECTIONS that would allow them to build the churches that you claim would be needed to take care of all of those Catholics.
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  1. Please provide the complaints from the Vatican against the Greek Government.
  2. Please provide the facts. What lack of legal protection prevents Catholics from building churches?
 
Fr Ambrose:
Please give me ONE example (city, location, year) where the Catholics wanted to build a church and they were not given building permission.

In actual fact there are about 17 Catholic churches in Greece, and the Catholic authorities have no interest in building any more.

We are told on this Forum that these 17 churches are for 200,000 Catholics. Either this means that Catholics in Greece don’t bother to go to church very much, or those churches are the size of football fields 😃

All the same, I hope you will back up your accusation.
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[EUROPEAN COURT OF HUMAN RIGHTS

CASE OF THE CANEA CATHOLIC CHURCH v. GREECE](http://www.cesnur.org/testi/Greece.htm)
 
Michael_Thoma said:
[EUROPEAN COURT OF HUMAN RIGHTS

CASE OF THE CANEA CATHOLIC CHURCH v. GREECE](http://www.cesnur.org/testi/Greece.htm)
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Would you give me a synopsis of these papers.

I have quickly looked at the second. It seems that the Catholic Church in Greece has no national legal persona, but then nor do other Churches. The legal rights of church buildings, etc. are guaranteed to the local owners in the same way as any McDonald’s franchise in my own country. Is this more or less accurate?

I wass intrigued by the statement of the European Court that the Canon Law of the Church of Rome applies in Greece. That Canon Lawe includes the rights of the Supreme Pontiff - somtehing you would hardly expect any country, let alone an Orthodox one, to accept.
 
Dear Fr. Ambrose:

Your dismissive post:
In actual fact there are about 17 Catholic churches in Greece, and the Catholic authorities have no interest in building any more.

We are told on this Forum that these 17 churches are for 200,000 Catholics. Either this means that Catholics in Greece don’t bother to go to church very much, or those churches are the size of football fields 😃
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As of the end of 2003 (the latest available information), the Catholic Church in Greece had:

4 Archdioceses, 4 Dioceses, and 1 Vicariate Apostolic for the Latins covering 83 parishes;

1 Ordinariate for Catholic Armenians with a single parish; and

1 Apostolic Exarchate for Catholic Byzantines with 3 parishes,

or a total of 87 Catholic parishes in Athens and elsewhere in Greece serving the claimed 200,000 Catholic faithful, or an average of 2,300+ Catholics, Greek-born and immigrant workers, per parish. You should know by now that there are multiple Sunday Masses in our Catholic (Latin Rite) Churches, worldwide, to take care of overflowing attendance. (As with the Orthodox, Eastern Catholics celebrate the Divine Liturgy only once on Sundays.)

Need we say more?
 
Fr Ambrose:
I wass intrigued by the statement of the European Court that the Canon Law of the Church of Rome applies in Greece. That Canon Lawe includes the rights of the Supreme Pontiff - somtehing you would hardly expect any country, let alone an Orthodox one, to accept.
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Father,

You are really quite extraordinary. Are we really supposed to understand from your observation that you expect the Catholic Church in Greece to manage its affairs according to Orthodox canon law?

Irenicist
 
Fr Ambrose:
It just struck me how funny this is. 🙂 The Pope has demanded and apparently received a “juridical statute” from the countries of the EU when he and Vatican State are actually excluded from the EU because of his country’s 1) discriminatory practices against women, and 2) the utter lack of democracy in the government of Vatican State.

Perhaps the Pope should correct these abuses in his own state before making demands and criticising a modern democratic state such as Greece? Something to ponder…
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The Holy Father is excluded from the EU? Last I saw, he was travelling rather freely. The only places he has trouble visiting seem to be those where the local Orthodox hierarchy oppose his visits.

Irenicist
 
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Franze:
Fr Ambrose, we want religous freedom like in the Western, why only a greek could be a orthodox, it´s unfair, and is very similar to the islamic countries, when we choose freedom religion isn´t for losing only ours faithfuls but for everywhere and for everyody.
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This is a very good point because the Greek Orthodox have remained hostile to the Catholics of the Roman rite and the Russian Orthodox, despite the help that has been given to them have also been quite hostile.

MaggieOH
 
Its kind of understandable - the mentality I mean - given the past, we Easterners have long memories, especially of unfortunate events. I don’t mean to say I agree with the stance, but I understand it, in a way.
 
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