Pope Wants Juridical Statute in Greece

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Irenicist:
The Holy Father is excluded from the EU? Last I saw, he was travelling rather freely.
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If I said that I have expressed myself badly. The Pope is not excluded from travelling in the EU, no more than other heads of state who run discriminatory and non-democratic States. But such States, including Vatican State, are not eligible for membership in the EU.

At the time the EU was attempting to force the monks of the Holy Mountain in Greece to open their peninsula to women visitors, the Greek Foreign Minister appealed to the example of the Vatican. The EU at this time pointed out that they would not be able to accept any membership application from Vatican State, for the same reasons of sexism which they were complaining of as regards the monastic republic of Athos.
 
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MaggieOH:
This is a very good point because the Greek Orthodox have remained hostile to the Catholics of the Roman rite and the Russian Orthodox, despite the help that has been given to them have also been quite hostile.
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Please see Message #33 and the hostility from the Vatican over the conversions to Orthodoxy in northern Italy.
 
Fr Ambrose:
Please see Message #33 and the hostility from the Vatican over the conversions to Orthodoxy in northern Italy.
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But I think it must be admitted that it is not the 60’s any longer and a new day has dawned. Times and perspectives are quite different and perhaps it serves no real purpose to keep reliving the past, re-examining every wound and since I am not that familiar with this “happening” I really cannot comment on the why or wherefores of the incident.

There are moments in time when opportunities present themselves, once they have passed, they come no more. Perhaps if the emphasis was on reordering things so that all people have the freedom to make their own decisions with regard to faith, it might speak far more loudly abut what we believe than all the constant bickering and fighting and territorial divisiveness.

The world has changed dramatically post WWII, even the pope has mentioned that at no time in human history has such a mass migration of peoples taken place. Thus we have what used to be predominantly Catholic nations now having other faiths flourishing and practicing. We have what used to be athiestic, or formerly communistic nations struggling to re-establish a religious base.

I do not believe that to keep a people “captive” by refusing them the right of self determination in the peaceable practice of whatever faith they wish to follow does anything but reflect lack of credit on religious leaders. Freedom of religious practice spurs us all into better evangelization, practice and understanding… Jesus forced no one into conversion.
 
Michael_Thoma:
Its kind of understandable - the mentality I mean - given the past, we Easterners have long memories, especially of unfortunate events. I don’t mean to say I agree with the stance, but I understand it, in a way.
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I think the pope does too which is why he has expressed the idea that until a purification of memory has occurred, ecumenical and interreligious relations cannot prosper as they should.
 
Fr Ambrose:
Perhaps the Pope should correct these abuses in his own state before making demands and criticising a modern democratic state such as Greece? Something to ponder…
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Well I have pondered it and I think that a secular nation state for people is quite different from a church state which exists solely for the purpose of administering the church state which resides there.

I feel that strongly in every nation women’s rights should be upheld, OTOH, I do not expect Mt. Athos priests to suddenly open their doors to me, it is a religious location with traditions and rules.and is not a residence for a civil populace. I also do not expect to be able to move into a monastery with monks. To try and compare the two is really not sensible given that the religious communities exist for a specific reason, have specific practices and do not concern the secular populations at large.
 
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MaggieOH:
This is a very good point because the Greek Orthodox have remained hostile to the Catholics of the Roman rite and the Russian Orthodox, despite the help that has been given to them have also been quite hostile.

MaggieOH
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I can’t quite recall where I read it but earlier this week I did read that a number of the curial cardinals are now beginning to cool with regard to the ROC due to the attitude of its current patriarch.
 
Dear Fr. Ambrose:

The EU’s initial and main reason for being is economic cooperation and integration and its membership is, therefore, limited to secular states.

The Vatican City-State is non-secular and it exists as the situs for the administration of the properties and ecclesiastical affairs of the Holy See throughout the world. This status under international law and comity was granted by the UN Charter, partly in recognition of the antiquity of Vatican diplomacy which predates even the UN’s predecessor, the League of Nations.

It is not at all a problem for the Holy See to be a non-member of the EU. The Holy See is already a member of the UN, the only non-secular state. It enjoys being the “moral compass” of the organization of the world’s nations.

Mt. Athos desperately wants to be recognized and categorized like the Holy See, an independent Republic under the protection of the EU or of the UN. However, it clearly lacks the length and breadth of the Vatican as the visible, and respected, territorial sovereignty of the global Catholic Church.
 
I thought the Holy See was a “non–member state” permanent observer, not a member of the UN.
 
Michael_Thoma:
I thought the Holy See was a “non–member state” permanent observer, not a member of the UN.
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You thought correctly. In its modern form the Holy See has been a state since 1929 when a treaty with Italy put an end to disputes over the Holy See’s sovereignty. For more than a thousand years between the 8th and 19th centuries the Holy See had ruled central Italy in full sovereignty, and the Pope was generally considered the senior monarch of Europe (at least in protocol terms).

In 1860, central Italy was annexed by the new kingdom of Italy, putting an end to the Pope’s sovereignty. In protest devout Catholics refused to vote or participate in governance. So in 1929, Mussolini agreed to cede back sovereignty to the Pope for the Vatican hill and a few selected churches and properties in Rome in exchange for the Holy See’s recognition of Italian sovereignty over the rest.

Irenicist
 
Yes, the Holy See is just a Permanent Observer of the United Nations, i.e., short of full membership, because it is a non-political entity, a non-secular state.

However, the Holy See is accorded the right to participate in all of the deliberations of the UN’s various organs, including the General Assembly, but without the right to vote.

The Holy See’s status was just like that of Switzerland before the latter decided to apply and accept full membership in 2002. The PLO remains as the only secular “state” as a Permanent Observer like the Holy See. (PLO’s full membership is delayed in part because of its still “undefined” territory.)

Many countries have been urging the Holy See to get full membership but it is satisfied with its current status. At any rate, the Holy See maintains full diplomatic relations with 174 member-sates of the UN and special diplomatic missions with the Russian Federation and the PLO.

With these diplomatic arrangements, the Holy See is afforded the vehicle for the protection of the juridical existence of the Catholic Church in those reciprocating countries.
 
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Amadeus:
Mt. Athos desperately wants to be recognized and categorized like the Holy See, an independent Republic under the protection of the EU or of the UN.
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I feel that I must, in justice to my brother monks on Athos, say that this is not accurate.

The International Status and the Legal Framework of Mount Athos
macedonian-heritage.gr/Athos/General/legal_status.html
and

macedonian-heritage.gr/Athos/General/intro.html

Map of the Holy Mountain and Its Major Monasteries
http://www.usconsulate.gr/MapsGR/Ma_agoro.gif
 
Fr.,
Which are the monasteries that refuse to mention the Patriarch in the diptychs and which are old Calendar?
 
Michael_Thoma:
Fr.,
Which are the monasteries that refuse to mention the Patriarch in the diptychs
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The monastery of Esphigmenou
and which are old Calendar?
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The monasteries of the Holy Mountain are Old Calendar.

Monastery of Esphigmenou, Mt Athos
 
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