Pope Wants Personal Prelature For Ex-Anglicans

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Good point. No lay person is actually in the SSPX, even if he/she attends an SSPX chapel every Sunday and receives communion.

Perhaps not. But stranger things have been suggested. I recall, a few years ago, someone suggesting that the SSPX could become a Patriarchate. (I suspect that the person who said that was just putting words together. )

I’ve wondered whether the US Church might not become a Patriarchate, or that in Brazil. They’re both pretty enormous.​

 

[Peter_J]

I’ve wondered whether the US Church might not become a Patriarchate, or that in Brazil. They’re both pretty enormous.​

I recall Pope Benedict saying something vaguely similar, but I don’t recall whether the US was one of the places he mentioned.

 

[RevDrNorth]

Whether or not the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC) becomes a Personal Prelature is anybody’s guess. If it did, it could potentially cause many Anglican Communion members who are Anglo Catholics to join the Catholic Church (under TAC). They are Anglican rite and love their way of worship in the same way Eastern rite Catholics do (who have their own structure and rite with allegiance to the Pope). My guess is that the Pope would make it difficult to switch between the Anglican and Roman rite (seminarians and lay) just as it is now between the Eastern Catholic rite and the Roman rite. My understanding is that switching between Eastern rite Catholic and Roman rite is possible but not easy. This would solve the issue of traditionally Roman rite clergy trying to switch to be married (as with Eastern rite). So the precedent is there.

There are many disaffected Anglicans who are displeased with the trends in the Communion. On top of that, there are Anglo Catholics in North America who have issues with the groups within the communion supporting traditionalists (e.g. CANA & AMiA) because they tend to be more evangelical and then there is the issue of women’s ordination. Those North American Anglo Catholics may look favorably on TAC as a Personal Prelature. There is growing concern among Anglo Catholics in Britain who feel the Church of England has left them (liberal trends, women’s ordination and NOW the strong possibility of women Bishops with no protection for Anglo Catholics who object).

Bringing TAC home might not only be a blessing for those traditional Anglicans but potentially millions more members of the Anglican Communion and the Catholic Church itself. Pope Benedict would be a hero too many orthodox Anglicans.

 

[countertenor]

It’s not that overly difficult to switch from latin to and eastern Church sui juris. Generally one just has to have been in an eastern parish for awhile (often they say a year) and then apply for a change of canonical enrolment with both bishops. Yes there’s paperwork and they want to make sure you’re doing it because your spirituality is being better fed by the particular eastern Church, but it’s not too big a deal.

 

[Hesychios]

Up until this point, the Vatican has never wanted to consider the Anglican liturgical tradition to be a separate church. Theoretically it is just a part of the Latin church.

The Vatican has been promoting the concept that there is only one western church for so long, it will not reverse itself now if that can be avoided.

The Roman Catholic hierarchy in Great Britain has been particularly opposed. They are not looking at Anglicans (domestic Anglicans) as another church, but a lost part of their own church. They do not want a separate parallel hierarchy and have thus far opposed any Anglican Use parishes in England as well.

Perhaps the present Pope has some new ideas. If he did admit the Anglicans as a separate church tradition (as opposed to just a “variation” of the Latin) that would be a monumental reversal of longstanding policy which goes back many centuries to the suppression of the native churches.

 

[RevDrNorth]

Up until this point, the Vatican has never wanted to consider the Anglican liturgical tradition to be a separate church. Theoretically it is just a part of the Latin church.

The Vatican has been promoting the concept that there is only one western church for so long, it will not reverse itself now if that can be avoided.

The Roman Catholic hierarchy in Great Britain has been particularly opposed. They are not looking at Anglicans (domestic Anglicans) as another church, but a lost part of their own church. They do not want a separate parallel hierarchy and have thus far opposed any Anglican Use parishes in England as well.

Perhaps the present Pope has some new ideas. If he did admit the Anglicans as a separate church tradition (as opposed to just a “variation” of the Latin) that would be a monumental reversal of longstanding policy which goes back many centuries to the suppression of the native churches.

Apparently, Benedict is well disposed towards traditional Anglicans. I think it would cause little if any negative issues for Roman rite Catholics in England. Actually, the opposite. It would likely cause big problems for the Church of England that might see defections among orthodox Anglicans (especially Anglo Catholics). This could cause a large increase in the number of Catholics in Britain as well as gains (millions) around the world.

Benedict might as well do it. Waiting around for possible talks with the Archbishop of Canterbury about reunion is dead. That on gong process was a nice idea. That issue was seriously impaired by women’s ordination and is now getting worse (nail in the coffin) with the Church of England preparing to elevate women to the office of Bishop. The Communion has around 58 million active members (77-80 million total) making it the third largest Christian group and it is fracturing. At this point, worrying about not stepping on Rowan Williams toes is not too practical. I think the Catholic Church would benefit orthodox Anglicans by providing an orthodox home for them under the Holy Father and potentially bring in millions of new Catholics (blessed to be a blessing).

I am sure there are some liberal Catholics who would not want orthodox Anglicans in their midst and rather keep dialoguing with Canterbury because the idea of women’s ordination/post modernism is appealing.

I think the idea is a win-win situation. For Canterbury, not so much but then Canterbury has not lead much in a deteriorating situation.

 

[JonNC]

I’m sort of ignorant of how things like this work. What will the TAC laity have to do? Attend RCIA? Sign the CCC?
How would people join the TAC after being in full communion with Rome?

Just curious,
Jon

 

[Peter_J]

Hi RevDrNorth. (I would say welcome, but I see that you’ve been here more than twice as long as I have. ) Good posts, but there’s a couple technical points …

When you say “the Eastern Catholic rite”, I guess you’re referring to the Byzantine rite (the rite that’s used by the Melkite Catholic Church, the Ukrainian Catholic Church, the Ruthenian Catholic Church, etc.) But, just for the record, there are a handful of other Eastern rites as well: for example, the Maronite rite, which is used by the Maronite Catholic Church.

This would solve the issue of traditionally Roman rite clergy trying to switch to be married (as with Eastern rite).

The Catholic Church doesn’t allow priests to get married, regardless of rite. (Nor does the Orthodox Church, for that matter.) The issue would be married Roman-rite men trying to switch rites in order to be ordained. (The EC Churches do ordain married men.)

 

[Soutane]

The 400,000 members of the Traditional Anglican Communion may finallly achieve complete union with the Catholic Church. It has been suggested that the TAC could operate under the status of a personal prelature, like Opus Dei.

This move would allow the TAC to operate as a kind of global diocese, with it’s own bishops, clergy, and liturgy. If this happens, I believe that many other traditional-minded Anglicans would convert to the Catholic faith under the leadership of the Bishop of Rome.

Here is a news report detailing this possible development:

catholicherald.co.uk/articles/a0000469.shtml

I would like to discuss this one point within the article:

Does this mean that married men will be ordained as Bishops in the TAC personal prelature? This move goes against the teaching of the Church on the issue. Personally, I believe the author of this article must be wrong on this point. What do you think?

The Orthodox while allowing married priests do not allow married Bishops.The Bishops are generally selected from the ranks of celibate monks.

 

[RevDrNorth]

Hi RevDrNorth. (I would say welcome, but I see that you’ve been here more than twice as long as I have. ) Good posts, but there’s a couple technical points …

When you say “the Eastern Catholic rite”, I guess you’re referring to the Byzantine rite (the rite that’s used by the Melkite Catholic Church, the Ukrainian Catholic Church, the Ruthenian Catholic Church, etc.) But, just for the record, there are a handful of other Eastern rites as well: for example, the Maronite rite, which is used by the Maronite Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church doesn’t allow priests to get married, regardless of rite. (Nor does the Orthodox Church, for that matter.) The issue would be married Roman-rite men trying to switch rites in order to be ordained. (The EC Churches do ordain married men.)

Hello to you too!

Yes there is great variety in the rites of the Church. I know a Maronite Catholic.

From what I understand Eastern Rite Catholic (Byzantine) priests were not allowed to marry in the US but can in other parts of the world (of course married before ordination). As I recall reading there was some ban in the US but not elsewhere. I believe I read that in Australia they were married.

So, assuming the above to be the case married TAC priests would not be impossible. My understanding is that when the Vatican gave some recognition to the Polish National Catholic Church (who has married Priests) in terms of limited intercommunion and recognition of orders (see a Missel in terms of ability to receive communion) they had a told the PNCC that they had to quit accepting Catholic (Roman) priests (apparently there had been some defections). This halted any mass exodus of Priests wanting to be married Priests and intending to transfer to the PNCC. This is what I have read at any rate.

All of that to say that married TAC priests would not be a huge obstacle. I highly doubt that they would get to keep a married episcopate. I imagine that those TAC Bishops might have to revert to priestly status. This is not without precedent elsewhere. There are some Anglican Bishops who have become Catholic priests and even if they received orders through the Anglican Old Catholic connection (valid) they have become priests in the Catholic Church. Also, even within the Anglican Communion, there are Bishops of continuing Anglican groups that have entered CANA (an Anglican Communion entity in N. America under Nigeria) and they entered as priests not Bishops.

All workable.

 

[RevDrNorth]

Hi RevDrNorth. (I would say welcome, but I see that you’ve been here more than twice as long as I have. ) Good posts, but there’s a couple technical points …

When you say “the Eastern Catholic rite”, I guess you’re referring to the Byzantine rite (the rite that’s used by the Melkite Catholic Church, the Ukrainian Catholic Church, the Ruthenian Catholic Church, etc.) But, just for the record, there are a handful of other Eastern rites as well: for example, the Maronite rite, which is used by the Maronite Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church doesn’t allow priests to get married, regardless of rite. (Nor does the Orthodox Church, for that matter.) The issue would be married Roman-rite men trying to switch rites in order to be ordained. (The EC Churches do ordain married men.)

Hello to you too!

Yes there is great variety in the rites of the Church. I know a Maronite Catholic.

From what I understand Eastern Rite Catholic (Byzantine) priests were not allowed to marry in the US but can in other parts of the world (of course married before ordination). As I recall reading there was some ban in the US but not elsewhere. I believe I read that in Australia they were married.

So, assuming the above to be the case married TAC priests would not be impossible. My understanding is that when the Vatican gave some recognition to the Polish National Catholic Church (who has married Priests) in terms of limited intercommunion and recognition of orders (see a Missel in terms of ability to receive communion) they had a told the PNCC that they had to quit accepting Catholic (Roman) priests (apparently there had been some defections). This halted any mass exodus of Priests wanting to be married Priests and intending to transfer to the PNCC. This is what I have read at any rate.

All of that to say that married TAC priests would not be a huge obstacle. I highly doubt that they would get to keep a married episcopate. I imagine that those TAC Bishops might have to revert to priestly status. This is not without precedent elsewhere. There are some Anglican Bishops who have become Catholic priests and even if they received orders through the Anglican Old Catholic connection (valid) they have become priests in the Catholic Church. Also, even within the Anglican Communion, there are Bishops of continuing Anglican groups that have entered CANA (an Anglican Communion entity in N. America under Nigeria) and they entered as priests not Bishops.

I should add that even were they to accept those current married TAC Bishops they would simply need to formulate a rule that from this point forward Bishops were celibate. As I recall there is some history in the Catholic church of having had a stray Bishop leave and get married and then return to the Church (in modern times). By doing this the current leadership would be in place but obviously die out in time leaving only the possibility of a married priesthood under similar conditions as the Eastern rite.

All workable.

 

[Peter_J]

Hello to you too!

Yes there is great variety in the rites of the Church. I know a Maronite Catholic.

From what I understand Eastern Rite Catholic (Byzantine) priests were not allowed to marry in the US but can in other parts of the world (of course married before ordination). As I recall reading there was some ban in the US but not elsewhere. I believe I read that in Australia they were married.

So, assuming the above to be the case married TAC priests would not be impossible.

I agree, especially considering that there are already former Anglican ministers who have been ordained in the Catholic Church.

My understanding is that when the Vatican gave some recognition to the Polish National Catholic Church (who has married Priests) in terms of limited intercommunion and recognition of orders (see a Missel in terms of ability to receive communion) they had told the PNCC that they had to quit accepting Catholic (Roman) priests (apparently there had been some defections). This halted any mass exodus of Priests wanting to be married Priests and intending to transfer to the PNCC. This is what I have read at any rate.

Interesting, I’d never heard that particular part of the story. If you happen to recall where you read that, I’d like to read it.

All of that to say that married TAC priests would not be a huge obstacle. I highly doubt that they would get to keep a married episcopate. I imagine that those TAC Bishops might have to revert to priestly status. This is not without precedent elsewhere. There are some Anglican Bishops who have become Catholic priests and even if they received orders through the Anglican Old Catholic connection (valid) they have become priests in the Catholic Church. Also, even within the Anglican Communion, there are Bishops of continuing Anglican groups that have entered CANA (an Anglican Communion entity in N. America under Nigeria) and they entered as priests not Bishops.

I should add that even were they to accept those current married TAC Bishops they would simply need to formulate a rule that from this point forward Bishops were celibate.

Personally, I think that to allowed married TAC bishops, even with the rule you mentioned, would be a huge mistake.

 

[Hesychios]

It was my understanding that the present bishops have offered to step aside. Presumably they would be content to become parish priests or retire.

I wonder if there are any monastic establishments connected with TAC? That would be an obvious source for some potential bishop candidates.

Otherwise, they might be stuck with someone sent to them from outside their tradition.

Perhaps Father George Rutler would be interested?

 

[Napsack]

The 400,000 members of the Traditional Anglican Communion may finallly achieve complete union with the Catholic Church. It has been suggested that the TAC could operate under the status of a personal prelature, like Opus Dei.

This move would allow the TAC to operate as a kind of global diocese, with it’s own bishops, clergy, and liturgy. If this happens, I believe that many other traditional-minded Anglicans would convert to the Catholic faith under the leadership of the Bishop of Rome.

Ha. Not any Anglican that I know.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Whether or not the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC) becomes a Personal Prelature is anybody’s guess. If it did, it could potentially cause many Anglican Communion members who are Anglo Catholics to join the Catholic Church (under TAC). They are Anglican rite and love their way of worship in the same way Eastern rite Catholics do (who have their own structure and rite with allegiance to the Pope). My guess is that the Pope would make it difficult to switch between the Anglican and Roman rite (seminarians and lay) just as it is now between the Eastern Catholic rite and the Roman rite. My understanding is that switching between Eastern rite Catholic and Roman rite is possible but not easy. This would solve the issue of traditionally Roman rite clergy trying to switch to be married (as with Eastern rite). So the precedent is there.

There are many disaffected Anglicans who are displeased with the trends in the Communion. On top of that, there are Anglo Catholics in North America who have issues with the groups within the communion supporting traditionalists (e.g. CANA & AMiA) because they tend to be more evangelical and then there is the issue of women’s ordination. Those North American Anglo Catholics may look favorably on TAC as a Personal Prelature. There is growing concern among Anglo Catholics in Britain who feel the Church of England has left them (liberal trends, women’s ordination and NOW the strong possibility of women Bishops with no protection for Anglo Catholics who object).

Bringing TAC home might not only be a blessing for those traditional Anglicans but potentially millions more members of the Anglican Communion and the Catholic Church itself. Pope Benedict would be a hero too many orthodox Anglicans.

There are also Anglican converts to Catholicism in England who have no access to any kind of Anglican Use at all - instead, they’ve been lumped with the infelicities of the US English translation of the revised Roman Missal. Becoming Catholic in England can be a very unpleasant shock in that respect. They’ve lost both a liturgy & a tradition of liturgical English: which may be why some have reverted to Anglicanism.​

 

[RevDrNorth]

Interesting, I’d never heard that particular part of the story. If you happen to recall where you read that, I’d like to read it.

Afraid I cannot find the article I read (read a year or so ago online). These two note the limited intercommunion and the bump in the road to further communion caused by the reception of some Catholic (Roman) clergy into the PNCC. PNCC is interesting and I imagine the “limited” intercommunion that occurred was in no small part due to JP II.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_National_Catholic_Church

usccb.org/comm/archives/2006/06-103.shtml

If anyone is interested here is a youtube video (news article) about the PNCC.

youtube.com/watch?v=bkllZ_O1JaU

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Up until this point, the Vatican has never wanted to consider the Anglican liturgical tradition to be a separate church. Theoretically it is just a part of the Latin church.

The Vatican has been promoting the concept that there is only one western church for so long, it will not reverse itself now if that can be avoided.

The Roman Catholic hierarchy in Great Britain has been particularly opposed. They are not looking at Anglicans (domestic Anglicans) as another church, but a lost part of their own church. They do not want a separate parallel hierarchy and have thus far opposed any Anglican Use parishes in England as well.

Perhaps the present Pope has some new ideas. If he did admit the Anglicans as a separate church tradition (as opposed to just a “variation” of the Latin) that would be a monumental reversal of longstanding policy which goes back many centuries to the suppression of the native churches.

It’s not going to happen ​

This is Rome all over: it stamps on the liturgical traditions of others, like a mammoth at a tea-party, because it could not care less for them. Union with Rome always means being swallowed by it - it never means union. The only way to get it to listen, is to give it a massive shock.

 

[BernadetteM]

My Episcopal parish was part of the first group to approach Rome to seek acceptance as a Personal Parish of the Anglican Use. Of course if you are familiar with Los Angeles you would understand why they were rejected even after the Holy Father said allow it.

Since then there are several Personal Parishes Anglican Use and there are new ones as of today.

My contact within this group who are well aware of what is happening in TAC informed me that the announcement concerning a Personal Prelature is premature. There are many issues at this time. One, priests that have been married more than once. Also there are many in TAC that just want to be in communion with the Catholic Church and I assume more or less be there own authority. I found this true in my former parish.

The difficulty I think is “authority”. It is very hard for people to submit to Rome. Although to be honest I found a freedom when I submitted and know that many former Episcopalians and there pastors who were accepted into Personal Parishes feel the same.

It is a wonderful freedom not to have to question every moral issue today, to know that you have a loving parent (the Church) who knows what is best through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I pray that some day many of these members of TAC will be recieved into the Church. You must remember that the Episcopal church has never been united in the faith. There are Anglo Catholics, broad and low churchmanship. You could go to one parish and it looks very Catholic, another would appear to be more Methodist. So TAC members come from all different types of belief.

I do feel that the Lord will bring many of these wonderful people back to the Church, but it will be in His time, not ours.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

 

[Rose_Maniple]

The Roman Catholic hierarchy in Great Britain has been particularly opposed. They are not looking at Anglicans (domestic Anglicans) as another church, but a lost part of their own church. They do not want a separate parallel hierarchy and have thus far opposed any Anglican Use parishes in England as well.

This may be true, but regardless, my understanding is that there isn’t the same drive for Anglican Use in England. Unlike North America, where Anglo-Catholic liturgy is characterized by “libretto by Cranmer and ceremonial by Fortescue,” English Anglo-Catholics of the Anglo-Papalist sub-tradition (that is, the ones likely to “swim the Tiber”) already use the Roman Missal anyway, and many such priests pray the Liturgy of the Hours, as a sign of their recognition of papal supremacy. (Yes, the phenomenon is as weird as it sounds).

 

[GKC]

This may be true, but regardless, my understanding is that there isn’t the same drive for Anglican Use in England. Unlike North America, where Anglo-Catholic liturgy is characterized by “libretto by Cranmer and ceremonial by Fortescue,” English Anglo-Catholics of the Anglo-Papalist sub-tradition (that is, the ones likely to “swim the Tiber”) already use the Roman Missal anyway, and many such priests pray the Liturgy of the Hours, as a sign of their recognition of papal supremacy. (Yes, the phenomenon is as weird as it sounds).

And not many folks know of Anglo-Papalists.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus