Pope Wants Personal Prelature For Ex-Anglicans

[GKC]

My Episcopal parish was part of the first group to approach Rome to seek acceptance as a Personal Parish of the Anglican Use. Of course if you are familiar with Los Angeles you would understand why they were rejected even after the Holy Father said allow it.

Since then there are several Personal Parishes Anglican Use and there are new ones as of today.

My contact within this group who are well aware of what is happening in TAC informed me that the announcement concerning a Personal Prelature is premature. There are many issues at this time. One, priests that have been married more than once. Also there are many in TAC that just want to be in communion with the Catholic Church and I assume more or less be there own authority. I found this true in my former parish.

The difficulty I think is “authority”. It is very hard for people to submit to Rome. Although to be honest I found a freedom when I submitted and know that many former Episcopalians and there pastors who were accepted into Personal Parishes feel the same.

It is a wonderful freedom not to have to question every moral issue today, to know that you have a loving parent (the Church) who knows what is best through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I pray that some day many of these members of TAC will be recieved into the Church. You must remember that the Episcopal church has never been united in the faith. There are Anglo Catholics, broad and low churchmanship. You could go to one parish and it looks very Catholic, another would appear to be more Methodist. So TAC members come from all different types of belief.

I do feel that the Lord will bring many of these wonderful people back to the Church, but it will be in His time, not ours.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Ah. A former member of Smokey Mary’s

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[BernadetteM]

Hi GKC,

Your right it was St. Mary of the Angles, although there was also another parish.

It was a difficult time for us and politics played a part in our being denied, as I also knew the Episcopal minister who didn’t want this to happen as he was on the ecumenical (sp) commision and wanted to be the one to have Rome recognize the Episcopal church, at least that was my feeling.

But God works in His own way. Did you ever go to St. Mary’s? I loved it then. I visited there a few years ago and I will say that something is missing.

Are you part of a continuing Anglican church?

God Bless you.

Bernadette

 

[GKC]

Hi GKC,

Your right it was St. Mary of the Angles, although there was also another parish.

It was a difficult time for us and politics played a part in our being denied, as I also knew the Episcopal minister who didn’t want this to happen as he was on the ecumenical (sp) commision and wanted to be the one to have Rome recognize the Episcopal church, at least that was my feeling.

But God works in His own way. Did you ever go to St. Mary’s? I loved it then. I visited there a few years ago and I will say that something is missing.

Are you part of a continuing Anglican church?

God Bless you.

Bernadette

I’ve never been to St. Mary’s, though I once lived in the LA area. I would greatly like to visit it.

Yes, I’m in the Continuum.

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus

 

[piperspop]

There are NO OBSTACLES, except perhaps the willingness of the parties involved. This would be an historic event, the first church “touched by the reformation” to return to communion with the Holy See. As such, it is not unthinkable that the pope will make new rules (its good to be the king) that create an entirely new status for those of us in the TAC.

The problem with the current personal use parishes in the US is that most RC bishops don’t really like them (there are only six or seven), and after the rector retires or dies, they simply will fade away, and Anglican liturgy with them.

I believe (hope, pray) that the pope will sieze this opportunity to show other denominations that they are welcome back to unity, by way of being “united, not absorbed”.

All the rest is small stuff, which can be settled by people determined to listen to the will of the Lord, and get this done.

 

[BernadetteM]

I don;t believe that all the Bishops dislike the AU parishes. In fact some really do appreciate what they have.

In one parish the priest I believe retired and another one took his place. Everything is set up for TAC already if they will accept the provision already in force. It is much more complicated for TAC as there are problems that didn’t exist with the original parishes and priests. If this were to happen, someday I feel that the Church will allow them to have their own Bishop.

I have heard that rumor about the AU parishes before, but as far as I know this is not what Rome plans. You must remember there are many liberal Bishops in the US. Things change and it is all in God’s hands.

We pray that many former Episcopalians and Anglicans will be allowed to come home soon. The liturgy is beautiful and it is a blessing for the Catholic Church to have so many diverse liturgies and people.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[rtconstant]

There are NO OBSTACLES, except perhaps the willingness of the parties involved. This would be an historic event, the first church “touched by the reformation” to return to communion with the Holy See. As such, it is not unthinkable that the pope will make new rules (its good to be the king) that create an entirely new status for those of us in the TAC.

The problem with the current personal use parishes in the US is that most RC bishops don’t really like them (there are only six or seven), and after the rector retires or dies, they simply will fade away, and Anglican liturgy with them.

I believe (hope, pray) that the pope will sieze this opportunity to show other denominations that they are welcome back to unity, by way of being “united, not absorbed”.

All the rest is small stuff, which can be settled by people determined to listen to the will of the Lord, and get this done.

I agree, and I think this would be a wonderful and historic event.

 

[Peter_J]

Afraid I cannot find the article I read (read a year or so ago online). These two note the limited intercommunion and the bump in the road to further communion caused by the reception of some Catholic (Roman) clergy into the PNCC. PNCC is interesting and I imagine the “limited” intercommunion that occurred was in no small part due to JP II.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_National_Catholic_Church

usccb.org/comm/archives/2006/06-103.shtml

Thanks. I note the statement: “Another complicating factor is the presence of a significant number of former Roman Catholic priests in the ranks of the Polish National Catholic clergy. Such is the legacy of the divisions of the past that remain with us today.”

 

[Peter_J]

It’s not going to happen ​

This is Rome all over: it stamps on the liturgical traditions of others, like a mammoth at a tea-party, because it could not care less for them. Union with Rome always means being swallowed by it - it never means union. The only way to get it to listen, is to give it a massive shock.

I think you need to buy a new calendar. We live in the reign of Pope Benedict XVI, not Pope … well, whoever you’re thinking of.

 

[GKC]

I don;t believe that all the Bishops dislike the AU parishes. In fact some really do appreciate what they have.

In one parish the priest I believe retired and another one took his place. Everything is set up for TAC already if they will accept the provision already in force. It is much more complicated for TAC as there are problems that didn’t exist with the original parishes and priests. If this were to happen, someday I feel that the Church will allow them to have their own Bishop.

I have heard that rumor about the AU parishes before, but as far as I know this is not what Rome plans. You must remember there are many liberal Bishops in the US. Things change and it is all in God’s hands.

We pray that many former Episcopalians and Anglicans will be allowed to come home soon. The liturgy is beautiful and it is a blessing for the Catholic Church to have so many diverse liturgies and people.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

The intent of the AU parishes was not to establish a permanent Anglican flavered presence n the RCC, but to ease the transition of large chunks of Anglicans into it. Nornally, after the first (convert) priest has departed, the parish will transition to, say, Novus Ordo. It is true that there may be a 2nd such priest, but in time, the AU is gone. This happened to the AU parish in my home town, which was a portion of a split off of traditionalist Episcopalians, another group of which formed my Continuing Anglican parish. So we were, in effect sister parishs. They are now the local indult TLM parish.

A few of the trophy parishes, in Texas, are likely to retain the AU, but for the most part, it is temporary. I think the total of AU parishes formed so far was around 12-15, of which 6-7 are still in existence. Numbers could be off, on that.

GKC

 

[rr1213]

The intent of the AU parishes was not to establish a permanent Anglican flavered presence n the RCC, but to ease the transition of large chunks of Anglicans into it. Nornally, after the first (convert) priest has departed, the parish will transition to, say, Novus Ordo. It is true that there may be a 2nd such priest, but in time, the AU is gone. This happened to the AU parish in my home town, which was a portion of a split off of traditionalist Episcopalians, another group of which formed my Continuing Anglican parish. So we were, in effect sister parishs. They are now the local indult TLM parish.

A few of the trophy parishes, in Texas, are likely to retain the AU, but for the most part, it is temporary. I think the total of AU parishes formed so far was around 12-15, of which 6-7 are still in existence. Numbers could be off, on that.

GKC

I think that you are right…which demonstrates that without changes the Anglican Use will really never be a significant presence within the Catholic Church. A personal prelature might be though. All of this speculate is premature, quite interesting, but unfortunately premature.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

This may be true, but regardless, my understanding is that there isn’t the same drive for Anglican Use in England. Unlike North America, where Anglo-Catholic liturgy is characterized by “libretto by Cranmer and ceremonial by Fortescue,” English Anglo-Catholics of the Anglo-Papalist sub-tradition (that is, the ones likely to “swim the Tiber”) already use the Roman Missal anyway, and many such priests pray the Liturgy of the Hours, as a sign of their recognition of papal supremacy. (Yes, the phenomenon is as weird as it sounds).

There is not the same drive, because the bishops are opposed to the Anglican Use; they make its use impossible, not the laity. So there’s nothing one can do about it. Don’t blame the converts - blame the men in mitres: it is entirely their doing. Don’t take my word for it - read William Oddie’s book “The Roman Option”, & find out all the details of the shabby treatment dealt out to Anglicans who “poped” in 1992 & after. ​

BTW, the Liturgy of the Hours is prayed to adore God, not to acknowledge the Pope. Personally, I think they should stick to the BCP with Compline.

 

[BernadetteM]

I have wondered what sources are being used to say that the AU parishes are not to be permanent. In fact someone I know who was involved in the establishment of these parishes 28 years ago asked that very question 28 years ago and was told that as long as there are those who wish to be part of the Pastoral Provision in Anglican Use parishes then it would continue to exist. Also the ones that closed were due to very small congregations and no priest. Let us not forget that some Bishops are closing many Latin Rite parishes at this moment.

Another parish is trying to start in Kansas City, MO and Arizona at this time.

Rumors such as this have been around since the beginning.

Also remember that although there are Bishops who don’t like the AU there Bishops who don’t like the Pope.

Instead of being negative know that the Lord allowed the Pastoral Provision and I believe that is what will help to allow TAC to someday enter into the Church. If someone wants to be truely Catholic they must submit to the authority of the Holy Father and many might want to be Catholic, but not want to submit. I was an Episcopalian and know this for a fact.

Lets just pray that God’s will be done and in His time. We who enter the Church must be humble and accept Her decisions.
Human nature is always to want God to give me what I want, how I want it and when I want it. That is the difference between a saint and us.

I will keep praying that the members of TAC who want to be Catholic will be accepted soon, as I know the pain of being on the outside of the Church.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[piperspop]

Bernadette,

The problem with Anglican Use provision being a solution is that it is only an American option. The TAC is currently in 40 countries wotldwide, so implementing such a provision would be as drastic as creating a sui juris for the TAC.

By the way, we consider ourselves catholic, as we believe in the “Faith once delivered to the saints”. We would like to remain Anglican Catholic, but in communion with the Holy See.

Thanks for your prayers.

 

[GKC]

I have wondered what sources are being used to say that the AU parishes are not to be permanent. In fact someone I know who was involved in the establishment of these parishes 28 years ago asked that very question 28 years ago and was told that as long as there are those who wish to be part of the Pastoral Provision in Anglican Use parishes then it would continue to exist. Also the ones that closed were due to very small congregations and no priest. Let us not forget that some Bishops are closing many Latin Rite parishes at this moment.

Another parish is trying to start in Kansas City, MO and Arizona at this time.

Rumors such as this have been around since the beginning.

Also remember that although there are Bishops who don’t like the AU there Bishops who don’t like the Pope.

Instead of being negative know that the Lord allowed the Pastoral Provision and I believe that is what will help to allow TAC to someday enter into the Church. If someone wants to be truely Catholic they must submit to the authority of the Holy Father and many might want to be Catholic, but not want to submit. I was an Episcopalian and know this for a fact.

Lets just pray that God’s will be done and in His time. We who enter the Church must be humble and accept Her decisions.
Human nature is always to want God to give me what I want, how I want it and when I want it. That is the difference between a saint and us.

I will keep praying that the members of TAC who want to be Catholic will be accepted soon, as I know the pain of being on the outside of the Church.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

The AU will exist, perhaps, but not as long-lived
parishes. New ones will start, if demand exists. Old ones will convert to NO. Find a parish right now, over, say, 5 yaers old or so, outside of Texas. The reasons parishes close because of no priest is that there is no provision for the providing of follow-on priests. A Prelature would change that. But would also make the Use a Rite.

GKC

 

[BernadetteM]

Hello Pipespop,

I understand how you feel about being Catholic, but that is not Rome’s position on Anglicans. Just my opinion but I think part of the holdup is your last paragraph that TAC just wants to be in communion with Rome not under Rome in the sense of being a Latin Rite Catholic.

I am not sure but I believe that England was considered Latin Rite Catholic from the beginning. There are other liturgies other than the latin rite observed in individual chruches today in some countries, that have a different usage, but they don’t consider themselves anything other than Latin Rite. If someone knows more about this please let me know.

I still feel that someday many former Anglicans all over the world will be allowed to enter the Church with an Anglican liturgy. I know that England is a different story and I feel that Rome doesn’t want to create more problems than is present between Canterbury and Rome. So it will be a slow process and each person must look into their own soul to determine if they want to really be united with the Church under the Churches terms.

I will keep praying for you all. It is very important to me that this event will happen.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[RevDrNorth]

I would suspect that it is possible to simplify the whole reception process. Receiving TAC could cause a huge number of Anglican to become Anglican Rite Catholics (under Rome). As has been pointed out, having Anglican Use parishes are really not the same thing and unlikely (and have not) attracted large numbers of converts. Imagine the various Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church done away with (hierarchs and so on) in favor of Eastern Use with no separate hierarchy. Traditional Anglican services have the majesty of the Latin Mass only in poetic English and they mean a lot to Anglicans, along with the history and other things that go with that.

In any case, you could either receive the current TAC Bishops and keep them with the provision that all future Bishops come from celibate clergy OR have them step down and become priests and put in place celibate Bishops. Next, in terms of issues with the various married priests (number of marriages and so on), the simplest thing is to take in the TAC clergy with the understanding that any future deaths of spouses mean NO remarriage. Any future divorce (e.g. spouse leaves a priest) not only means NO remarriage but also a time of mutual discernment in terms of future ministry. All future clergy must be married before ordination to the deaconate (as in the Eastern Rite).

Someone pointed out treading carefully around Canterbury but I am not sure there is much use in that. With the ordination of women AND apparently the future elevation of women to the status of Bishop, hope for unity is lost…over. This could be seen as an opportunity for the Catholic Church to come to the aid of Anglicans AND for the Catholic Church to gain potentially millions of Anglo Catholics.

 

[BernadetteM]

Rev. Dr. North,

I feel that we really don’t have any idea exactly what is going on between TAC and Rome. I also believe that the AU opened the way for TAC to come into the Church

Although there are few parishes at this time, it has been a struggle with the Bishops in many parts of the country.

I believe that even though some think this is a simple matter, it is much more complicated than we know. It took much time and effort for just a few AU parishes to be received, how much more will it take with so many. I know that when the Anglican Use was established they also wanted to have their own rite. Maybe this will be the time. In a way it was a trial period to see if accepting former Episcopalians with their own liturgy would work. So far when given the opportunity it has worked. Maybe not on a grand scale, but it has shown Rome that former Anglicans becoming Catholic is a good thing.

We don’t know the mind set of many in TAC, as I have stated in the past some are not Anglo Catholic and might have problems with the conditions set for their reception.

I can see from the posts that their seems to be a prejudice against the Anglican Use parishes. At least that is my perception. If some one wants to know what is happening with the parishes as a whole why not contact St. Thomas More Society and ask how they are being treated by Rome. Also if one is interested they could contact any of the parishes.

No one will know how Rome will handle this and it is best to wait and see. I know many want it now, but as most of us know the Church is very slow in making decisions.

I pray that I am not being harsh, but feel such negative attitudes by some.

Let us pray together about this and leave it in the Lord’s hands.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[RevDrNorth]

Prayer is always a good idea

I hope you realize that I have nothing against AU parishes and certainly in no way mean to demean them as less than Anglican or anything else negative.

Another thing is that you make a good point. I doubt anyone really knows what is going on with the TAC issue except the Vatican (at high levels).

 

[rtconstant]

There is not the same drive, because the bishops are opposed to the Anglican Use; they make its use impossible, not the laity. So there’s nothing one can do about it. Don’t blame the converts - blame the men in mitres: it is entirely their doing. Don’t take my word for it - read William Oddie’s book “The Roman Option”, & find out all the details of the shabby treatment dealt out to Anglicans who “poped” in 1992 & after. ​

BTW, the Liturgy of the Hours is prayed to adore God, not to acknowledge the Pope. Personally, I think they should stick to the BCP with Compline.

Yeah, I wouldn’t see any problem in the use of the BCP. I mean since we’ve moved away from the old Latin form that was the common ground between the Church of England and Rome anyway, I don’t see the harm. In fact while I can’t speak from experience I’ve heard that the Anglo-Catholic rite is beautiful. I’ve even heard traditionalists say that they would prefer it to the OF currently in use.

I think that such moves would speak a great deal for Rome’s desire to reconcile with our brothers. It may not be my place to say, but I think that its a shame that there are those who really want to return to Rome, but find so many road blocks, that are strictly disciplinary in origin. Again that’s just me.

 

[piperspop]

H Bernadette,

I realize the Rome does not consider us in the same way they do say the Orthodox, but if unity is going to happen among Christians, Rome is going to find that it cannot be “their way or the highway”.

It is not true, nor has it ever been true that the Roman church is the only path to salvation. We follow the faith as agreed on in the first 7 ecumenical councils (when the WHOLE church was present), and our bishops have signed the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is time for the Vatican to make a move and welcome us or let us know that they will not.

Pope Benedict has repeatedly spoken of his desire for unity, and Paul VI and John-Paul II have spoken of Anglicans being “United, not absorbed”. At some point the time for talk ends, and actions speak louder than words.

I pray that this pope seizes the opportunity presented to him, for there are many in Rome who, if they succeed him, would be much less receptive to the idea. Let us hope that Benedict XVI make us an offer we cannot refuse, for I also believe that there are many who will join us if this historic event should occur.