Pope Wants Sunday As Day of Rest Starting in 2011

[mark_a]

I’m not against families taking time for rest and worship, but I do have a problem with the theological underpinnings that the Pope uses to justify ceasing from secular work on Sunday.

Is the debacle over Sabbath/Sunday rest the extent of your problems with the pope? If so maybe I can mediate for you.

 

[StTommyMore]

Personally, I think this is an excellent idea! How about we enact a new law forcing all businesses to close on Sunday except for emergency services? I mean sure, keep the pharmacy part of pharmacies open, the emergency rooms, hospitals, fire departments, police departments, ambulance services, and whatever else emergency services need to stay open but keep all non-necessary businesses closed! Sunday is supposed to be a day of worship, family, and love, not shopping and commercialism!

Rather than making laws “forcing” them to close, perhaps of all Christians (not just Catholics) stop going out to eat after Mass, stop doing unnecessary shopping, going to the movies, etc. If ALL Christians would do this (excepting sects SDA) it would become unprofitable for businesses to stay open.

 

[kepha1]

It is very interesting what you just posted. For one, you mention that the church will give an exemption to those who need it, but the in the EU the organization of Catholic Bishops is trying their best to make Sunday a work free day.

You miss the big picture, and I will reiterate. The main focus of the article in question is about FAMILIES, not Sunday worship.

from the Zenit article

Work and celebration are intimately connected in the life of families: they condition choices, influence relations between married couples and between parents and children, affect the relation of families with society and with the Church. Holy Scripture (cf. Genesis 1-2) tells us that the family, work and the feast day are gifts and blessings of God to help us to live a fully human existence. Daily experience attests that the authentic development of the person includes the individual, familial, and communal dimension, activities and functional relationships, as well as openness to hope and to the Good without limits.

The Scriptures are made for families, families are not made for scriptures. That is why you cannot understand the emphasis of the Zenit article.

The Pope refers to Genesis 2 as his basis for making Sunday a work free day,

That is not how the Pope used scripture. “the feast day are gifts and blessings of God to help us to live a fully human existence.” He is using scripture properly.

The Resurrection is the basis for making Sunday a work free day, not scripture quotes from the Pope 2000 years after the fact. Do you hold the Resurrection to be inferior to your 160 year old tradition invented by a sea captain??

while Genesis 2 mentions the 7th day as the only day that God said to rest from our labors.

No one is denying the importance of the Saturday Sabbath in Judaism, but Jesus didn’t rise from the dead on Saturday, and you are still missing the point of the article.

Don’t you see how once you start exalting tradition over Scripture you start sliding down the slippery slope to oblivion?

Nobody is exalting tradition over scripture, even with your erroneous definition of tradition. In fact, the authority of Scripture is Sacred Tradition, but the SDA’s won’t permit certain early church realities into your thinking.

*“If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, *on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death–whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master.”

• Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 9:1 (A.D. 110). *
  St. Ignatius of Antioch was trained by the Apostle John, ordained by St. Peter, was the third bishop of Jerusalem, so don’t think I would give much credibility to a group that holds this man in contempt.

 

[pnewton]

The title didn’t change the topic.

The title did not change the topic, yet you used this title, taken from another SDA site, despite its deception. If the title is irrelevant, then why the deception? Truth does not use deception fo promote Truth.

It is very interesting what you just posted. For one, you mention that the church will give an exemption to those who need it, but the in the EU the organization of Catholic Bishops is trying their best to make Sunday a work free day.

Why would anyone here believe what you or the SDA says about what the Catholic Church is or isn’t? You have shown yourself to be unreliable. I, however, have no problem documenting by exception. From section 2185 of the Catechism:

Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of Sunday rest.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

It is very interesting what you just posted. For one, you mention that the church will give an exemption to those who need it, but the in the EU the organization of Catholic Bishops is trying their best to make Sunday a work free day.

The title did not change the topic, yet you used this title, taken from another site, despite its deception. If the title is irrelevant, then why the deception? Truth does not use deception fo promote Truth.
Why would anyone here believe what you or the SDA says about what the Catholic Church is or isn’t? You have shown yourself to be unreliable. I, however, have no problem documenting by exception. From section 2185 of the Catechism:

And while recognizing the need for and allowing an exception does not mean that one can not or should not work towards a way for the exception to either go away or be very rarely used.

I do not understand your argument that the bishops allow for an exception but they are working to make Sunday a work free day (which would make the exception very rare (as public safety work will always need to be done on everyday of the week)).

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The title didn’t change the topic. The article quoted below the topic was taken directly from ZENIT. You are missing the BIG picture.

When you start out with a lie you lose all credibility. Also as has been pointed out the ZENIT article is in no way about Sunday rest but about the Family so not only do you get the title wrong you miss the BIG picture of what the article is about and chose to focus on some abstract part of it that separates your denomination from the rest of mainstream Christianity, that of Sunday worship/rest.

 

[pnewton]

I do not understand your argument that the bishops allow for an exception but they are working to make Sunday a work free day (which would make the exception very rare (as public safety work will always need to be done on everyday of the week)).

Rarity is not mentioned. I will quote the fuller paragraph:

Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of Sunday rest. The faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health.

and

Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord’s Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees.

On thing I think we will never see is the Catholic Church making the mistake of the Pharisees in the observance of days. St. Paul is particular about this point.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The reason that Christians have not worshipped on Saturday, until the SDA arrived on the scene, is the same reason that we are not required to be circumsised or that we do not have a set of rules for Sunday. Christians simply are not bound by the Mosaic Law, either in the guise of the Judaizers, or modern Judaizers that will attempt to do the very thing that Paul warned us against in Colossians.

No, the Church promotes the principle of spiritual rest and refreshment, but the acutal rules are not set and exceptions are allowable.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

You are in error, the Adventist who were part of the Great Advent Awakening in the mid 1800’s were in error to the event foretold in 1844, the Seventh Day Adventists were not yet formed at that time. People don’t understand that and misapply that all the time.

Aaaaahhhh…so the Seventh Day Adventists are a NEW church, so it cannot claim to be the Church Jesus instituted while He was still on Earth.

So why should I listen to a new church indistinguishable from the thousands already formed by the time it was formed rather than to the Church that (1) has historical and archeological evidence to be the Church Jesus instituted, (2) which He promised that “the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18), (3) which actually compiled the Bible, (4) which actually DEFENDED the Faith from heretics, pagans, and actual military invasion? What gives YOUR church the right to interpret the Word of God in a way different from how the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have interpreted it regarding the Sabbath and the Lord’s Day for almost 2000 years?

And oh, before you say anything about the Church “apostatized” some time ago you have to contend with Matthew 16:18 or you risk saying that either (1) Jesus lied or (2) He is an incompetent prophet. AND, if you say that the Church may make mistakes about the interpretation of the Bible you have to (1) contend with 1 Timothy 3:15: “But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth,” (2) and give the credentials of your Church.

Good day and God bless.

 

[Des]

When people asked Jesus a question regarding religious issues, note how many times He answered by saying something like this: “Have you never read in the book of Isaiah. . . ?” He didn’t give tradition as the basis for doctrines, but Scripture. He was our example, then and now.

For this to be consistent, Christ or HIs Apostles, would have had to quote the Scriptures ‘EVERYTIME’ He was teaching something as you and your protestant brethren do. The fact is, they didn’t.

Example: Which text or texts from the OT, did Christ or His Apostles use when teaching the faithful that there are 3 Persons of One Godhead? That’s an important enough Doctrine yes?

The most important things in the Bible can be understood by a born again 12 year old child.

Where does it say in the Bible which are the essential teachings and which are the non essential teachings?
Or am I to understand that whatever YOU think is important after coming to your own conclusions, that all Christians must equally interpret to be ‘Important’ Doctrines? Surely you jest.

 

[EricFilmer]

Truth matters. Wasn’t Jesus called the Way, the Truth, and the Life? The Sabbath Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments shouldn’t that be important if someone or some church had the arrogance to change it without any basis from the Scripture itself, or direct words from God himself? Catholics and Protestants should be jumping out of their pews!

The head of the Catholic Church is Christ himself. When the Magisterium acts in an official capacity pertaining to faith and morals, the Church does so under the guaranteed guidance of the Holy Spirit and cannot err. So Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium’s interpretation of it come directly from God.

SDAs are all about the truth and nothing but the truth. Tradition is not Bible truth. What has greater authority, the words that God wrote with his own finger in stone, or the words that fallible men trumped as being truth?

As I stated above, what the Catholic Church officially teaches pertaining to faith and morals comes from God, not fallible men.

But before we move on, let us examine your statement:
“Tradition is not Bible truth.”
This is not found in the Bible, at least not in the manner that you are directing it. Jesus spoke against the Jewish teachings known as the Traditions of the Elders, but that has nothing to do with Sacred Tradition (as taught by the Catholic Church). So in making statements such as “Tradition is not Bible truth” (as a refutation of Sacred Tradition) you are presenting a teaching that does not come from the Bible, but rather from people like you, who are “fallible men.”

Basically what you have been doing throughout your posts is an attempt to refute Catholic teaching based upon the teaching of Sola Scriptura. Although you have not actually used the term, you have set it as a standard that, in your opinion, all Christians ought to observe. For example, statements such as “Tradition is not Bible truth” is a “Sola Scriptura-type” expression.

But Sola Scriptura is a false doctrine. Adherents of Sola Scriptura claim that a proposed teaching concerning Christian doctrine must be found in the Bible to be valid. But Sola Scriptura itself is not found in the Bible. So it is a teaching that tells us to reject itself. Such a paraodox cannot truly come from God.

Face the fact, that there is no Sunday rest and worship commandment written by the finger of God.

Here is another example of a “Sola Scriptura-type” expression. I assume that when you say “written by the finger of God”, you mean “the Bible.” I think it is common knowlegde that Catholics do not follow Sola Scriptura, so why do you make posts presuming that we should?

Nevertheless, Sacred Tradition is, in a manner-of-speaking, “written by the finger of God.” The Holy Spirit guided the formulation of Sacred Tradition just as the Holy Spirit guided the compilation of Sacred Scripture.

But I challenge you to give me a quote from the Bible that states that God will only teach in the form of Scripture. Until you do so, it is only your opinion that he does so, and it is an opinion that is not “written by the finger of God.”

And yet the majority of professed Christians on planet earth ignore the Sabbath Commandment, and exalt Sunday in its place! This must be the deception of the millennium!

“Deception of the millennium”? Actually, it has been Christian practice for two millennium!

The Didache, for example, was written by 1st Century Christians, and in the 14th Chapter we read:
“On the Lord’s Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure.”

In the middle of the Second Century, St. Justin Martyr wrote (in his First Apology) a detailed description of the Catholic Mass, and stated that it took place “On the day which is dedicated to the sun.”

So Christians have been doing this all along. SDAs are the ones who want to be different. Obviously you will interpret the Bible however you wish, but the fact is that modern Catholics are continuing the practices that were done among the first Christians.

Jesus was our example. When questioned, Jesus quoted Scripture.

Sometimes Jesus quoted Scripture, sometimes he did not. For example:
Jesus did not quote Scripture when responding to the various questions addressed to him in John 6.
When asked if it was lawful to pay the Roman tax, Jesus did not respond with Scripture (Matthew 22:15-22).
When asked about fasting, Jesus did not quote Scripture (Mark 2:18-22).

And when St. Paul was asked questions, he answered with Tradition:
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word or by mouth or by letter.” (2Thess 2:15, RSV)

(Something taught “by mouth” is not, by definition, Scripture)

“What you have learned and received and seen in me, do; and the God of peace will be with you.” (Philippians 4:9).

(Obviously St. Paul cannot be referring to Scripture when he says to learn from what is “seen in him”).

[/QUOTE]

 

[StrawberryJam]

You never addressed my point.

Still waiting for Truth Wave to tell me all the truth.

 

[Pythons]

:yawn: Same old, same old with you SDAs.

Unfortunately, that’s not the only odd thing promulgated by the SDA’s…
…The SDA teaching that Christ could have lost His salvation and subsequently been annihilated by God - permanently is shocking.

However back to the Sabbath that teaching can be taken apart simply by looking at the math…
…SDA’s teach that Jesus died on the cross at Jewish Passover in 31 A.D.
…Passover in 31 A.D. did NOT coincide with a Gregorian Friday, Saturday, Sunday.
…Therefore SDA’s don’t “keep” the correct Sabbath either & that’s according to their own theology.

See the 2 attachments - which is official admission from SDA church authority they know about the little “math problem” & a picture of the actual state of the Moon on Passover in 31 A.D.

The SDA’s are in a bind on this simply because they can’t change their time hack whereas the death of Christ took place because their Investigative doctrine was confirmed by Ellen White ( their prophet ) and if they loose the I.J. the whole house of cards comes down.

The yearbook statement on the bottom left of the .pdf
…Flat out states the SDA has “no answer” as to the Passover problem.

 

[TruthWave]

Funny you should ask that. What has greater authority The Church as an infallible teacher, which is the “pillar and bullwark of the TRUTH” or your fallible interpretation of what the Bible is saying?

The Scriptures should be what the church quotes to back up its doctrines, not traditions that the church promotes. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees over and over again for trumping the clear words of Scripture with Jewish tradition.

 

[TruthWave]

Where does Scripture record which day on the calendar is the 7th day?

Note, quotes below which will assure you that the 7 day weekly cycle is intact even after thousands of years. Additionally, God would never make a Commandment that mankind couldn’t keep even in 2010. You can keep the other 9, so why not the 4th?

“By calculating the eclipses, it can be proven that no time has been lost and the creation days were seven, divided into 24 hours each.”—Dr. Hinkley, The Watchman, July 1926 [Hinkley was a well-known astronomer].

“The human race never lost the septenary [seven day] sequence of week days and that the Sabbath of these latter times comes down to us from Adam, though the ages, without a single lapse.”—Dr. Totten, professor of astronomy at Yale University.

“Seven has been the ancient and honored number among the nations of the earth. They have measured their time by weeks from the beginning. The origin of this was the Sabbath of God, as Moses has given the reasons for it in his writings.”—Dr. Lyman Coleman.

“There has been no change in our calendar in past centuries that has affected in any way the cycle of the week.”—James Robertson, Director American Ephemeris, Navy Department, U.S. Naval Observatory, Washington, D.C., March 12, 1932.

“It can be said with assurance that not a day has been lost since Creation, and all the calendar changes notwithstanding, there has been no break in the weekly cycle.”—Dr. Frank Jeffries, Fellow of the Royal Astronomical Society and Research Director of the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, England.

 

[TruthWave]

Is the debacle over Sabbath/Sunday rest the extent of your problems with the pope? If so maybe I can mediate for you.

I admit that Luther and Calvin had their faults, but they did advance truth, and stirred the multitudes to open their Bibles and study for themselves.

The Pope and his army of Jesuits are very sly in how they frame their arguments. By quoting Genesis, but not the text itself, which clearly refers to the 7th day, the Popes applies that biblical principle of resting to Sunday!! But, there is no command in the Bible to rest on Sunday and cease from secular labor.

 

[davidv]

Note, quotes below which will assure you that the 7 day weekly cycle is intact even after thousands of years. Additionally, God would never make a Commandment that mankind couldn’t keep even in 2010. You can keep the other 9, so why not the 4th?

“By calculating the eclipses, it can be proven that no time has been lost and the creation days were seven, divided into 24 hours each.”—Dr. Hinkley, The Watchman, July 1926 [Hinkley was a well-known astronomer].

“The human race never lost the septenary [seven day] sequence of week days and that the Sabbath of these latter times comes down to us from Adam, though the ages, without a single lapse.”—Dr. Totten, professor of astronomy at Yale University.

“Seven has been the ancient and honored number among the nations of the earth. They have measured their time by weeks from the beginning. The origin of this was the Sabbath of God, as Moses has given the reasons for it in his writings.”—Dr. Lyman Coleman.

“There has been no change in our calendar in past centuries that has affected in any way the cycle of the week.”—James Robertson, Director American Ephemeris, Navy Department, U.S. Naval Observatory, Washington, D.C., March 12, 1932.

“It can be said with assurance that not a day has been lost since Creation, and all the calendar changes notwithstanding, there has been no break in the weekly cycle.”—Dr. Frank Jeffries, Fellow of the Royal Astronomical Society and Research Director of the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, England.

I don’t see any quotes from the Bible here. So the Bible does not really say that the seventh day is Saturday.

 

[Miserys_Fence]

If His Holiness wants to come to my house every Sunday and do the cooking and cleaning and laundry and pet care and errands, I’ll be glad to rest all day.

Miz

 

[TruthWave]

Unfortunately, that’s not the only odd thing promulgated by the SDA’s…
…The SDA teaching that Christ could have lost His salvation and subsequently been annihilated by God - permanently is shocking.

However back to the Sabbath that teaching can be taken apart simply by looking at the math…
…SDA’s teach that Jesus died on the cross at Jewish Passover in 31 A.D.
…Passover in 31 A.D. did NOT coincide with a Gregorian Friday, Saturday, Sunday.
…Therefore SDA’s don’t “keep” the correct Sabbath either & that’s according to their own theology.

See the 2 attachments - which is official admission from SDA church authority they know about the little “math problem” & a picture of the actual state of the Moon on Passover in 31 A.D.

The SDA’s are in a bind on this simply because they can’t change their time hack whereas the death of Christ took place because their Investigative doctrine was confirmed by Ellen White ( their prophet ) and if they loose the I.J. the whole house of cards comes down.

The yearbook statement on the bottom left of the .pdf
…Flat out states the SDA has “no answer” as to the Passover problem.

1. Your attachments are out dated references, more in depth study has been done by SDA scholars since the time frame of the documents that you posted.
2. Regarding the Passover, the short answer is that it was based on lunar observations, which cannot not be p(name removed by moderator)ointed to the exact minute and hour because they were based on physical observation and the fact that the moon can be basically a “full moon” for up to 72 hours.
3. The weekly 7 day cycle has not changed. It was not based on lunar/solar events, it was based on God perfect number 7. Note, the quotes below that give proof positive evidence validating the 7 day weekly cycle has** not changed **since Genesis 2!

“By calculating the eclipses, it can be proven that no time has been lost and the creation days were seven, divided into 24 hours each.”—Dr. Hinkley, The Watchman, July 1926 [Hinkley was a well-known astronomer].

“The human race never lost the septenary [seven day] sequence of week days and that the Sabbath of these latter times comes down to us from Adam, though the ages, without a single lapse.”—Dr. Totten, professor of astronomy at Yale University.

“Seven has been the ancient and honored number among the nations of the earth. They have measured their time by weeks from the beginning. The origin of this was the Sabbath of God, as Moses has given the reasons for it in his writings.”—Dr. Lyman Coleman.

“There has been no change in our calendar in past centuries that has affected in any way the cycle of the week.”—James Robertson, Director American Ephemeris, Navy Department, U.S. Naval Observatory, Washington, D.C., March 12, 1932.

“It can be said with assurance that not a day has been lost since Creation, and all the calendar changes notwithstanding, there has been no break in the weekly cycle.”—Dr. Frank Jeffries, Fellow of the Royal Astronomical Society and Research Director of the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, England.

 

[TruthWave]

I don’t see any quotes from the Bible here. So the Bible does not really say that the seventh day is Saturday.

Here is the Bible text. The quotes provided prove the Bible text true to this day. Additionally, if you deny that we cannot know what day is the 7th, then we cannot know which day is the 1st. Therefore, you are honoring Christ’s resurrection on the wrong day. Rome claims to have known the day of Resurrection to this day, therefore, the day before that would be the 7th day Sabbath.

1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. 4 This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

 

[EricFilmer]

The Scriptures should be what the church quotes to back up its doctrines

The Bible doesn’t say this.
Therefore, by definition, this is an extra-biblical tradition (i.e., “not in the Bible”).
So it is ok for you to have extra-biblical traditions, but not Catholics, huh?

TruthWave, I am going to use your own words to challenge you.
Use the Scriptures to back up your statement: “The Scriptures should be what the church quotes to back up its doctrines.”
After all, you are presenting this statement as a doctrine, aren’t you?
Well, then back it up with Scripture.

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees over and over again for trumping the clear words of Scripture with Jewish tradition.

Jesus never condemned all tradition. He specifically criticized certain aspects of Jewish instructions on following the Law of Moses that were collectively called the Traditions of the Elders.

And if you still object to Christians using Tradition then I let me remind of what I presented in Post #90:

St. Paul taught with Tradition:

“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word or by mouth or by letter.” (2Thess 2:15, RSV)

(Something taught “by mouth” is not, by definition, Scripture)

“What you have learned and received and seen in me, do; and the God of peace will be with you.” (Philippians 4:9).

(Obviously St. Paul cannot be referring to Scripture when he says to learn from what is “seen in him”).

St. Paul clearly did not agree with your stance about only teaching from Scripture. Nor did Jesus always respond to questions with Scripture, as I pointed out in Post #90.