Pope Wants Sunday As Day of Rest Starting in 2011

[pnewton]

The Scriptures should be what the church quotes to back up its doctrines, not traditions that the church promotes.

LOL, like you do in the very next post???

It starts:

1. Your attachments are out dated references, more in depth study has been done by SDA scholars since the time frame of the documents that you posted.

Note you give no Scripture, just SDA teaching. It is not tradition that Jesus condemned in the Pharisees, but hypocricy. You should heed the advice.

 

[Ads]

Note the ZENIT Web news link below:

zenit.org/article-30476?l=english

I’m not against families taking time for rest and worship, but I do have a problem with the theological underpinnings that the Pope uses to justify ceasing from secular work on Sunday. He points back to Genesis 2, which is where God created the Sabbath on the 7th day. Sunday is the 1st day, and has never had any command attache to it to rest or worship on the 1st day, but the Pope seems take the Sabbath command to cease from work on the 7th day, and applies it to the 1st day.

You are right and this is just the early days of the enforcement of Sunday worship. Now were does it say to honor Sunday, Christs resurection or not. Baptism was given at his death not a change of the Sabbath.
The day of rest is and always will be the Lords day Sabbath. (Saturday) It says he will think to change times and laws, THINK TO but really no one can.

 

[StTommyMore]

You are right and this is just the early days of the enforcement of Sunday worship. Now were does it say to honor Sunday, Christs resurection or not. Baptism was given at his death not a change of the Sabbath.
The day of rest is and always will be the Lords day Sabbath. (Saturday) It says he will think to change times and laws, THINK TO but really no one can.

The “Day of th Lord” is the day of his Resurrection, that is, Sunday. If you don’t mind, I would like to recommend God is Near Us and Spirit of the Liturgy, both by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI). THese books go to great lengths to explain our beliefs about worship.

 

[TruthWave]

You miss the big picture, and I will reiterate. The main focus of the article in question is about FAMILIES, not Sunday worship.

Yes, it is about, but its also about the Pope wanting them to rest and cease from work on Sunday, not Sabbath, which the rest day mentioned in Genesis 2. You miss the connection which is significant. Because it dovetails with the efforts of the EU Catholic Bishops who are working very hard to make Sunday a work free day in the EU.

This link summarizes the historical view of how Sunday worship came about over time.
biblehistory.com/The%20Origin%20of%20Sunday%20Worship.html

And this link: biblicalperspectives.com/books/sabbath_to_sunday/7.html deals with St. Ignatius’s statements which were meant to exhort the new Christians to not keep Sabbath like Jews did in a legalistic manner to keep it in joyful and spirit filled manner.

.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

+JMJ+
TruthWave;7262937:

You are in error, the Adventist who were part of the Great Advent Awakening in the mid 1800’s were in error to the event foretold in 1844, the Seventh Day Adventists were not yet formed at that time.

People don’t understand that and misapply that all the time.

Aaaaahhhh…so the Seventh Day Adventists are a NEW church, so it cannot claim to be the Church Jesus instituted while He was still on Earth.

So why should I listen to a new church indistinguishable from the thousands already formed by the time it was formed rather than to the Church that (1) has historical and archeological evidence to be the Church Jesus instituted, (2) which He promised that “the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18), (3) which actually compiled the Bible, (4) which actually DEFENDED the Faith from heretics, pagans, and actual military invasion? What gives YOUR church the right to interpret the Word of God in a way different from how the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have interpreted it regarding the Sabbath and the Lord’s Day for almost 2000 years?

And oh, before you say anything about the Church “apostatized” some time ago you have to contend with Matthew 16:18 or you risk saying that either (1) Jesus lied or (2) He is an incompetent prophet. AND, if you say that the Church may make mistakes about the interpretation of the Bible you have to (1) contend with 1 Timothy 3:15: “But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth,” (2) and give the credentials of your Church.

Good day and God bless.

TruthWave, I am still awaiting your answers for this.

God bless!

 

[EricFilmer]

+JMJ+

TruthWave, I am still awaiting your answers for this.

God bless!

Well, nuntym, you wanted Moondweller to answer my questions in the “Importance of Mary” thread, and this time around I really want to see TruthWave’s answers to your questions. Yeesh, I’m getting the feeling that some people come on this webpage thinking that it is some kind of dodge ball game rather than a debate forum.

Anyway…

TruthWave, I also would really like to see your answers to nuntym’s questions.

 

[Junebug999]

I didn’t tell any lies. I pointed out the slick way that the Pope tried to take the authority of the Sabbath Commandment, when he referred to Genesis 2, (the Sabbath Commandment), as a basis for ceasing from labor on Sunday. When ceasing from labor on Sunday, or for that matter worshiping on Sunday, have no commandment for doing such things.

I have to say a word about your saying “slick way that the Pope”…that is very inappropriate thing to say about the Holy Father, our Vicar of Christ, our Leader of Christ’s Church. None of us have gone to a SDA website and said anything about “slick way Ellen G. White”…and if we did it would be wrong and sinful. Respect us, respect our Church, respect our Holy Father, respect Our Lord.

You can engage in honest discussion without resorting to slights against our Holy Father. We do have our beliefs, and we have our rights to those beliefs. And honest discussion should not include those types of statements. And it’s all right if you feel frustrated. After all, your attempt at evangelization is not going to hit the mark with a bunch of ardent and devout Catholics who study God’s word, and Tradition and tradition. But…I’ll give you credit for trying : )

Just be respectful of what you say, please.

 

[EricFilmer]

The Scriptures should be what the church quotes to back up its doctrines, not traditions that the church promotes. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees over and over again for trumping the clear words of Scripture with Jewish tradition.

TruthWave, as I have pointed out before, because of comments like these I think it is reasonable to presume that you are an adherent to the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Therefore, I wanted to make sure you knew about Miguel Statre’s thread discussion. He is also an adherent of Sola Scriptura, and has started this as an examination of its merits:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=515287

Even though it is still a relatively new post, so far no one has come to assist him in addressing all the Catholic posts. Therefore, I ask that you consider participating in that thread discussion and give him your support.

In light of all this, you can forgo answering the questions I presented to you earlier regarding Sola Scriptura…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7271116&postcount=90
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7292426&postcount=100

…and simply present what ever responses you have in the context of Miguel’s thread. This, of course, presumes that you have answers to my questions or even intend on making any response to them at all. So far you seem to be ignoring them…

 

[Pythons]

1. Your attachments are out dated references, more in depth study has been done by SDA scholars since the time frame of the documents that you posted.

When, where was this study done and where is it posted…
…And please, please - don’t refer me to the B.R.I. site.

truthwave:

1. Regarding the Passover, the short answer is that it was based on lunar observations, which cannot not be p(name removed by moderator)ointed to the exact minute and hour because they were based on physical observation and the fact that the moon can be basically a “full moon” for up to 72 hours.

No, that’s not correct, get back with me on the calendation / lunar software you are using that says this…
…We will remove that doubt in your mind rather quickly.

truthwave:

1. The weekly 7 day cycle has not changed. It was not based on lunar/solar events, it was based on God perfect number 7. Note, the quotes below that give proof positive evidence validating the 7 day weekly cycle has** not changed **since Genesis 2!

The calendar used to validate the SDA prophetic schema was luni/ solar…
…The hebrew week has always been 7 days - that’s not the argument.
…The weeks were not perpetual cycles of 7 and should you choose to discuss that I’m prepared to do so.

truthwave:

“By calculating the eclipses, it can be proven that no time has been lost and the creation days were seven, divided into 24 hours each.”—Dr. Hinkley, The Watchman, July 1926 [Hinkley was a well-known astronomer].

False argument truthwave - no one suggests “any” time has been lost…
…What’s been proven is day seven on one calendar system does not equate the same day number on another.

truthwave:

“The human race never lost the septenary [seven day] sequence of week days and that the Sabbath of these latter times comes down to us from Adam, though the ages, without a single lapse.”—Dr. Totten, professor of astronomy at Yale University.

You still do not understand the issue…
…That’s not the point, at all.

truthwave:

“Seven has been the ancient and honored number among the nations of the earth. They have measured their time by weeks from the beginning. The origin of this was the Sabbath of God, as Moses has given the reasons for it in his writings.”—Dr. Lyman Coleman.

“There has been no change in our calendar in past centuries that has affected in any way the cycle of the week.”—James Robertson, Director American Ephemeris, Navy Department, U.S. Naval Observatory, Washington, D.C., March 12, 1932.

“It can be said with assurance that not a day has been lost since Creation, and all the calendar changes notwithstanding, there has been no break in the weekly cycle.”—Dr. Frank Jeffries, Fellow of the Royal Astronomical Society and Research Director of the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, England.

You still are NOT getting it…
…I’m out of town and will help you once I get back.

 

[benidict]

+JMJ+

TruthWave, I am still awaiting your answers for this.

God bless!

and i am still waiting for one Adventist, just ONE. who can point to their unique doctrines being taught before the 1800s. soul sleep, the scapegoat doctrine. Michael being the preincarnate Christ, the torments of hell not being everlasting. i just want one theologian or doctor of the Church, that taught any of these teachings, or translated the words of Christ and the apostles to mean such. my contention is that these are fabrications made by Ellen G. White, her husband James white.(who by the way, was not trinitarian…) and at least one close associate who was a high level mason. Peace come to think of it though, it would be nice to have one, just ONE day off during the week…lol! i dont care which. but where im at, its probably not going to happen. thats ok, the Muslims dont get a day off either. after friday prayers its right back to work. they are very industrious though. Peace

 

[TruthWave]

+JMJ+

TruthWave, I am still awaiting your answers for this.

God bless!

Catholicism was a “new church” in the second century. The Jewish church was entrusted with the oracles of God. Paul himself said that the “mystery of iniquity was already at work” in the 1st century. The key point that exposes Rome is that it did exactly what the Jews did in their last days, they exalted tradition and religio-political issues over the very words of the Bible. You quote, the long history of Rome as vindicating it as the true church, whereas Protestants view this as massive evidence pinning it as fulfilling the prophecies of the Antichrist.

 

[TruthWave]

and i am still waiting for one Adventist, just ONE. who can point to their unique doctrines being taught before the 1800s. soul sleep, the scapegoat doctrine. Michael being the preincarnate Christ, the torments of hell not being everlasting. i just want one theologian or doctor of the Church, that taught any of these teachings, or translated the words of Christ and the apostles to mean such. my contention is that these are fabrications made by Ellen G. White, her husband James white.(who by the way, was not trinitarian…) and at least one close associate who was a high level mason. Peace come to think of it though, it would be nice to have one, just ONE day off during the week…lol! i dont care which. but where im at, its probably not going to happen. thats ok, the Muslims dont get a day off either. after friday prayers its right back to work. they are very industrious though. Peace

SDAs greatly advanced the understanding of the Bible in the mid 1840’s to this day, SDAs have brought to light many things that were obscure in the Bible. For example, the understanding that SDAs have of Bible prophecy is light years ahead of the average Catholic or Evangelical for that matter. The question I have for you is why after 1,800 years the Roman Catholic church as so little interpretive insight into the books of Daniel and Revelation? Could it be that the Jesuits know that prophecies of Daniel and Revelation point directly at Rome and the Papacy?

 

[TruthWave]

I have to say a word about your saying “slick way that the Pope”…that is very inappropriate thing to say about the Holy Father, our Vicar of Christ, our Leader of Christ’s Church. None of us have gone to a SDA website and said anything about “slick way Ellen G. White”…and if we did it would be wrong and sinful. Respect us, respect our Church, respect our Holy Father, respect Our Lord.

You can engage in honest discussion without resorting to slights against our Holy Father. We do have our beliefs, and we have our rights to those beliefs. And honest discussion should not include those types of statements. And it’s all right if you feel frustrated. After all, your attempt at evangelization is not going to hit the mark with a bunch of ardent and devout Catholics who study God’s word, and Tradition and tradition. But…I’ll give you credit for trying : )

Just be respectful of what you say, please.

What I said is light weight when it comes to what several others have said to me on this forum, namely, that accused me of “lying” several times, when everything that I said is well documented.

 

[TruthWave]

TruthWave, as I have pointed out before, because of comments like these I think it is reasonable to presume that you are an adherent to the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Therefore, I wanted to make sure you knew about Miguel Statre’s thread discussion. He is also an adherent of Sola Scriptura, and has started this as an examination of its merits:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=515287

Even though it is still a relatively new post, so far no one has come to assist him in addressing all the Catholic posts. Therefore, I ask that you consider participating in that thread discussion and give him your support.

In light of all this, you can forgo answering the questions I presented to you earlier regarding Sola Scriptura…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7271116&postcount=90
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7292426&postcount=100

…and simply present what ever responses you have in the context of Miguel’s thread. This, of course, presumes that you have answers to my questions or even intend on making any response to them at all. So far you seem to be ignoring them…

Thanks for the invite, but I post on several different forums, and might not have the time.

 

[edwest2]

I am behind the Pope 110%.

Peace,
Ed

 

[TruthWave]

When, where was this study done and where is it posted…

…And please, please - don’t refer me to the B.R.I. site.

 

[TruthWave]

Attached is document of the Sabbath as shown in ancient and modern languages around the world.

 

[TruthWave]

Attached is document of the Sabbath as shown in ancient and modern languages around the world.

Attached is the document dealing with the lunar/solar Sabbath issue.

 

[Pythons]

SDAs greatly advanced the understanding of the Bible in the mid 1840’s to this day,

The SDA understanding of prophecy since the 1840’s is nothing to brag about, it’s horrific…
…William Miller’s ONLY message was to repent beecause Jesus was coming at a definite time.
…That was IT - there was NO other message (s) at all.

Christians at that tme who rejected Miller’s “unblbilcal” message were rebuked by Ellen White…
…Who claimed the reason those Christians rejected Miller’s message was because they hated Jesus and the Sabbath.

1843 & 1844 came and went with there being NO Second Coming, people started to get depressed and give up…
…It was at THAT point two men entered the time hack.

George Storr’s - proto Jehovah’s Witness
&
Incarnation of Elijah - AKA Samuel Snow

These two Characters put forth the theory that Jesus would return on the 10 day of the seventh month…
…According to the Jewish Liturgical calendar.

The teaching was called the 7th Month movement & Shut Door…
…It was first promulgated at the Adventist Campmeeting approx 3.5 months previous to the terminus of the Shut Door.
…Shut Door being 22 October 1844

Subsequent to 22 October 1844 the teaching was that the possibility for salvation was ended for the world…
…Salvation also terminated for anyone who left the movement and didn’t get back on the path.

Ellen G. White stated that God “shew her in vision” the truth about the 7th month movement and shut door…
…Ellen then promulgated her visions and helped “Incarnation of Elijah” sell the idea.
…Which worked until 1851 when the jig was finally up.

Much later - after a couple other theological devices were attempted in failure the 2nd apartment of the heavenly sanctuary teaching was adopted…
…Where it was believed that on 22 October 1844 Jesus moved from one room of the temple in heaven to most holy room.
…And initiated an investigation which, in SDA view, is still ongoing.

truthwave:

SDAs have brought to light many things that were obscure in the Bible. For example, the understanding that SDAs have of Bible prophecy is light years ahead of the average Catholic or Evangelical for that matter. The question I have for you is why after 1,800 years the Roman Catholic church as so little interpretive insight into the books of Daniel and Revelation? Could it be that the Jesuits know that prophecies of Daniel and Revelation point directly at Rome and the Papacy?

Ellen White took hook line and sinker, the teachings of “Incarnation of Elijah” & George Storrs…
…What logic is there, for a religion which advocates soul sleeping, to accept a teaching from a person.
…Who believes he is the “spirit of Elijah” incarnated?
…It’s outlandish and is typical of the razzle dazzle hype found in certain religions at that time - in that area.

 

[Pythons]

Jan.2010 by Gerhard Pfandl, Ph.D. a SDA Theologian.

How is that truthwave? Demonstrate it.

truthwave:

What explodes your whole argument is that God said “Remember, the Sabbath day. . .” in Exodus 20, would God command something that couldn’t be easily kept till the end of time? The other commandments are in force and understandable, in that a 12 year old child can kept them.

You really don’t get it do you - the “week” is still 7 days in length - you do not understand what lunar Sabbaths are so please read enough on it so you don’t make the type of statements you just did.

truthwave:

The testimony of the Jews exploded that argument. The Jews are the most meticulous time keepers in the world. There is no way in the world that the whole Jewish nation dispersed around the world could lose track of the 7th day Sabbath. The testimony of ancient languages is the other proof positive things, in about 80% of the world’s languages ancient and modern use the word for the Sabbath for the 7th day of the week.

The “testimony of the Jews” have already informed you that they do not calculate their calendar the same way…
…I thought I provided you with that.
Schaff Herzog:

The Israelites . . . made the Sabbath the feasts of a living and holy God. The work of man became symbolic of the work of God, and human rest of divine rest, so that the Sabbaths became preeminently days of rest. Since, moreover, the LUNAR MONTH had 29 or 30 days, the normal lapse of time between Sabbaths was six days, although sometimes seven or eight; and six working days were accordingly assigned to the creation, which was to furnish a prototype for human life. The connection of the Sabbath with lunar phases, however, was [later] discarded by the Israelites . . . .” (The New Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, 135-136.)

SDA’s are fond of quoting the Schaff Herzog in their efforts to teach Saturday Sabbath, no?
…What do you say about this truthwave?
Jewish Encyclopedia:

The origin of the Sabbath, as well as the true meaning of the name, is uncertain. The earliest Biblical passages which mention it (Ex. xx. 10, xxxiv. 21; Deut. v. 14; Amos viii. 5) presuppose its previous existence, and analysis of all the references to it in the canon makes it plain that its observance was neither general nor altogether spontaneous in either pre-exilic or post-exilic Israel. It was probably originally connected in some manner with the cult of the moon, as indeed is suggested by the frequent mention of Sabbath and New-Moon festivals in the same sentence (Isa. i. 13; Amos viii. 5; H Kings iv. 23). …
AND,

The Sabbath depending

, in Israel’s nomadic period, upon the observation of the phases of the moon, it could not, according to this view, be a fixed day. When the Israelites settled in the land and became farmers, their new life would have made it desirable that the Sabbath should come at regular intervals, and the desired change would have been made all the more easily as they had abandoned the lunar religion.

There, above, is the testimony of “the Jews”…
…Does that work for you?

truthwave:

No, its you that don’t get it. Finally, think about this, Rome knows what day the resurrection of Jesus took place on, the 1st day, Sunday, therefore the day before Sunday is the 7th day, Sabbath. Nothing has changed, friend. This whole lunar/solar is a smokescreen to cast doubt on the Sabbath.

Yes, and Rome ( nor anyone other than SDA’s ) suggests that Christ was put on the Cross in 31 A.D. - at Passover…
…Simply because Passover in 31 A.D. did NOT include a Gregorian Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
…You understand that’s the issue, right?