Pope: war must not be waged in the name of God

[switalabe]

Hi CA Community,

What does the pope mean by this?

Here is a link to the article: en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/01/21/pope_war_must_not_be_waged_in_the_name_of_god/1119157 Again, the title is “Pope: war must not be waged in the name of God” and the article was published (or re-published?) by Vatican Radio.

Before I explain my confusion, I’ll put forward a possible explanation: the Pope means that war cannot be waged in God’s name in this particular case (distress in Niger), but he does not mean that war cannot be waged in God’s name in general.

Now for my confusion: I just finished reading a book about the Crusades (The Glory of the Crusades by Steve Weidenkopf) which has been advertised on this site. In the book Weidenkopf makes various points that seem to run counter to this statement of the Pope.

In short, doesn’t the Church have a just war theory? And if any war can be called just, how can that war not be in the name of God?

Blessings to you,
Ben

 

[Eric_Hyom]

When you think about it, we are all created by the same God despite all our differences. Why would God want us to kill another part of his creation, and use his name to justify war?

 

[switalabe]

I think God would want us to kill each other if it was in legitimate self-defense. For example, if my family is being attacked by a gang of thugs with weapons, such as firearms, then I think God would want me to reciprocate with lethal force against those thugs.

My mother taught me that the fifth commandment is not “Thou shalt not kill” but it is “Thou shalt not murder.” And my father taught me that some people need to be killed.

On top of this, God is recorded as killing people in various places in the Bible. Again, it seems to me that God does permit – even encourage – killing when it is done justly.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Before I explain my confusion, I’ll put forward a possible explanation: the Pope means that war cannot be waged in God’s name in this particular case (distress in Niger), but he does not mean that war cannot be waged in God’s name in general.

I think you are spot on. The Church does have a just war theory (WWII is a good example). Trust your instincts. Sometimes war to achieve a humanitarian end is justified (to stop/prevent evil) where all other peaceful means have been exhausted. The force used must be measured, etc., etc. Just war theory. And this is not a war “in the name of God” but as a defensive measure to achieve/restore peace and justice. The Pope as I see it is criticizing this conflict in Niger as a separate issue.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

I think you are spot on. The Church does have a just war theory (WWII is a good example).

What about the second Gulf War, we invaded Iraq looking for ficticious WMD’s, thousands died. I can understand the Iraqi people having the right to defend themselves.

 

[FollowChrist34]

What about the second Gulf War, we invaded Iraq looking for ficticious WMD’s, thousands died. I can understand the Iraqi people having the right to defend themselves.

Are you asking me if I thought that was a just war?

 

[switalabe]

Eric,

I personally believe that the second Gulf War was not a just war. I also believe that many of the other wars that the US has recently been involved in were not just. (I am an American.)

However, a friend of mine pointed out that even in an unjust war, individuals can take just actions. So I tend to also believe that some of the soldiers or even groups of soldiers may have been (probably were) acting in justice in their various day-to-day activities, even the hazardous ones.

Ben

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Are you asking me if I thought that was a just war?

I think the second Gulf War was unjust, we invaded another country and two million people became refugees, tens of thousands died. Iraq is in a worse state than before the invasion, so what have we acomplished?

As evil as Sadam may have been, we seem to have done little to improve the life of the Iraqi people by our invasion.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Eric,

I personally believe that the second Gulf War was not a just war. I also believe that many of the other wars that the US has recently been involved in were not just. (I am an American.)

Ben

I am British, I struggle with the idea of Iraq being a just war.

However, a friend of mine pointed out that even in an unjust war, individuals can take just actions. So I tend to also believe that some of the soldiers or even groups of soldiers may have been (probably were) acting in justice in their various day-to-day activities, even the hazardous ones.

They may well have done, but one of the results of this war is the formation of IS, now America and Britain seem to be living in fear of reprisals.

The bottom line is that we are all created by the same God, and we have a duty to care for God’s creation, that has to mean caring for each other despite our differences.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I think the second Gulf War was unjust, we invaded another country and two million people became refugees, tens of thousands died. Iraq is in a worse state than before the invasion, so what have we acomplished?

As evil as Sadam may have been, we seem to have done little to improve the life of the Iraqi people by our invasion.

I still can’t figure where I said I thought this was a just war…anyway I think you can argue this one both ways. Had their been chemical weapons as the intelligence claimed, I think there is room to argue it was a just war. As they were not, I don’t think that it was. I did support it, but only made that decision days before it started and never really did think it was a good idea or necessary. I do think Saddam Hussein was a monster, so I wasn’t too worried about taking out his government and replacing it with another more democratic, Iraqi one. It would not be hard to make an argument that this war was not just. I referenced WWII in my post.

 

[powerofk]

I still can’t figure where I said I thought this was a just war…anyway I think you can argue this one both ways. Had their been chemical weapons as the intelligence claimed, I think there is room to argue it was a just war. As they were not, I don’t think that it was. I did support it, but only made that decision days before it started and never really did think it was a good idea or necessary. I do think Saddam Hussein was a monster, so I wasn’t too worried about taking out his government and replacing it with another more democratic, Iraqi one. It would not be hard to make an argument that this war was not just. I referenced WWII in my post.

Right. I didn’t support either going into Afghanistan nor Iraq. But… once we were there, I subscribed to the “you break it, you buy it” thought process. In other words, if we were going to be stuck there, we better make sure that we take responsibility for anything that goes wrong and try our very best to make it a better situation than when we went in. The problem? After Saddam fell (and especially after he was captured), we were no longer fighting the Iraqi government - the new gov’t was allied with us, at least in theory. But the fall of Saddam created a power vaccuum. And that, right there, was the problem. No longer were we fighting our original enemy - we were fighting splinter groups that were vying for power. The new Iraqi gov’t was (and is) too weak to control much of the country outside Baghdad, and a “victory” in the general military sense of the word was impossible - at least without a very, very long occupation of the country (I’m talking 50+ years here). Of course, this did not float well with (a) the American public, who were (and are) war-weary; or (b) the Iraqi government and people, who were getting tired of being occupied, especially if their “occupiers” were considered above Iraqi law.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Pope: war must not be waged in the name of God

I remember watching the news, both Saddam and George Bush seemed to imply God was on their side. I can understand the Pope saying war should not be waged in the name of God, I can see how Christianity and Islam can be damaged by using God’s name in this way.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Right. I didn’t support either going into Afghanistan nor Iraq. But… once we were there, I subscribed to the “you break it, you buy it” thought process. In other words, if we were going to be stuck there, we better make sure that we take responsibility for anything that goes wrong and try our very best to make it a better situation than when we went in. The problem? After Saddam fell (and especially after he was captured), we were no longer fighting the Iraqi government - the new gov’t was allied with us, at least in theory. But the fall of Saddam created a power vaccuum. And that, right there, was the problem. No longer were we fighting our original enemy - we were fighting splinter groups that were vying for power. The new Iraqi gov’t was (and is) too weak to control much of the country outside Baghdad, and a “victory” in the general military sense of the word was impossible - at least without a very, very long occupation of the country (I’m talking 50+ years here). Of course, this did not float well with (a) the American public, who were (and are) war-weary; or (b) the Iraqi government and people, who were getting tired of being occupied, especially if their “occupiers” were considered above Iraqi law.

Agreed. The US learned an important lesson about the limits of “compassionate colonialism” there. I think any superpower deals with these issues (democratic, capitalist, communist, totalitarianism, etc.) The question remains how to deal with unstable, potentially volatile areas. A nuclear Iran comes to mind. It is easy to criticize from our armchairs, Bible in hand. I feel for leaders responsible for maintaining order and peace, reviewing and assessing threats, etc.

 

[J_Peterson]

I think God would want us to kill each other if it was in legitimate self-defense. For example, if my family is being attacked by a gang of thugs with weapons, such as firearms, then I think God would want me to reciprocate with lethal force against those thugs.

My mother taught me that the fifth commandment is not “Thou shalt not kill” but it is “Thou shalt not murder.” And my father taught me that some people need to be killed.

On top of this, God is recorded as killing people in various places in the Bible. Again, it seems to me that God does permit – even encourage – killing when it is done justly.

The difference is that in your scenario you are defending yourself and/or your family. With the just war theory, a just war must be defensive, not offensive. Defending yourself, your home, or your country is not waging war in the name of anybody or anything, it is defending youself from someone else who is waging war.

 

[Darryl1958]

Iraq was not a war waged in the name of God. Iraq was waged in the interests of the national state

Islamist terrorist acts are acts of war, and they are attributed specifically to God.
Allahu akbar.

 

[PoorKnight]

The difference is that in your scenario you are defending yourself and/or your family. With the just war theory, a just war must be defensive, not offensive. Defending yourself, your home, or your country is not waging war in the name of anybody or anything, it is defending youself from someone else who is waging war.

You can also go into another country (invade) if you are defending someone else. That also fits the just war theory and it is “offensive”, or at least the world would think it is. Case-and-point the 1st Crusade.

I personally believe the Pope should “resurect” - if that’s the right word - the Templar and place them infront of ISIS. Give me 20 armed, trained, catechised, warriors to defend the poor people in one small area and you’ll see a heavy DROP in all death in that particular area.

The Cathechism states it is GRAVE MATTER to have the duty to protect others and not do so. We are Catholics. Our Catholic brothers and sisters are being slaughtered. What are we doing about it? Praying? Look up what James has to say about people who just pray when physical needs are not being met… safety is a physical need.

God Bless,
Poor Knight for Christ and His Church

 

[powerofk]

You can also go into another country (invade) if you are defending someone else. That also fits the just war theory and it is “offensive”, or at least the world would think it is. Case-and-point the 1st Crusade.

I personally believe the Pope should “resurect” - if that’s the right word - the Templar and place them infront of ISIS. Give me 20 armed, trained, catechised, warriors to defend the poor people in one small area and you’ll see a heavy DROP in all death in that particular area.

The Cathechism states it is GRAVE MATTER to have the duty to protect others and not do so. We are Catholics. Our Catholic brothers and sisters are being slaughtered. What are we doing about it? Praying? Look up what James has to say about people who just pray when physical needs are not being met… safety is a physical need.

God Bless,
Poor Knight for Christ and His Church

Understood. Obviously, for most of us, all we can do is pray, due to the obstacles put into place that prevent us from personally intervening. Even if we were lawfully able to intervene on an individual basis (remember, citizenship is stripped for any American who serves in a foreign military, regardless of whether or not the US is currently involved in the conflict), most of us simply do not have the financial resources to do so. The Pope could bring back some “armed religious” groups, of course, but membership in such a group would also be a revocation of US citizenship, though I’m not sure about any other country. And that, right there, is part of the problem. It’s not that we don’t want to intervene militarily - it’s that unless our government intervenes, we don’t have the ability to.

However, we do have the ability to financially intervene. Many organizations are collecting money and aid to send to the persecuted Christians in Iraq. Catholic Answers, for example, are selling magnets to collect money. The Knights of Columbus are collecting money and aid over their national website: kofc.org.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

The Cathechism states it is GRAVE MATTER to have the duty to protect others and not do so.

We didn’t go out of our way to protect the innocent Iraqi civilians who had nothing to do with 9 / 11, and were killed, injured or made refugees as a result of American and British action.

We are Catholics. Our Catholic brothers and sisters are being slaughtered. What are we doing about it?

We are all created by the same God, we must seek justice for all of God’s creation.

How can peace ever happen if guns are part of the solution?

 

[dmar198]

The Cathechism states it is GRAVE MATTER to have the duty to protect others and not do so. We are Catholics. Our Catholic brothers and sisters are being slaughtered. What are we doing about it?

I think the pope has stated pretty clearly that a military response to terrorism, including ISIS, can be justified. The Just War doctrine is one of several areas where I think Pope Francis is clearer than his predecessors. See the link about Pope Francis in my signature for documentation.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

I think the pope has stated pretty clearly that a military response to terrorism, including ISIS, can be justified.

See the link about Pope Francis in my signature for documentation.

Thanks for the link, here is a part of the Holy Father’s message about ‘just wars’ taken from a sub link of your link. I take it to read that peaceful means are best, the rest of his message makes good reading

To this end, it is essential that all citizens – Muslim, Jewish and Christian – both in the provision and practice of the law, enjoy the same rights and respect the same duties. They will then find it easier to see each other as brothers and sisters who are travelling the same path, seeking always to reject misunderstandings while promoting cooperation and concord. Freedom of religion and freedom of expression, when truly guaranteed to each person, will help friendship to flourish and thus become an eloquent sign of peace.

The Middle East, Europe and the world all await this maturing of friendship. The Middle East, in particular, has for too long been a theatre of fratricidal wars, one born of the other, as if the only possible response to war and violence must be new wars and further acts of violence.

What is required is a concerted commitment on the part of all, based on mutual trust, which can pave the way to lasting peace, and enable resources to be directed, not to weaponry, but to the other noble battles worthy of man: the fight against hunger and sickness, the promotion of sustainable development and the protection of creation, and the relief of the many forms of poverty and marginalization of which there is no shortage in the world today.

Turkey, by virtue of its history, geographical position and regional influence, has a great responsibility: the choices which Turkey makes and its example are especially significant and can be of considerable help in promoting an encounter of civilizations and in identifying viable paths of peace and authentic progress.

May the Most High bless and protect Turkey, and help the nation to be a strong and fervent peacemaker! Thank you!

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2014/november/documents/papa-francesco_20141128_turchia-incontro-autorita.html