Pope Warns Against New Colonialism: Corporations, Loan Agencies, and Austerity Measures That Hurt Poor

[EIF5A]

What diversity?

He’s a leftist. I haven’t seen anything from him that I couldn’t hear from President Obama regarding economics.

If Obama and the Pope both agree that 5-3=2, do you become suspicious?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Speaking out against an economic system that, in the hands of the wrong people, empowered greed and exploitation has nothing to do with morals and the Gospel of helping the poor?

That’s the problem. Economic systems don’t do those things, people do.

An economic system should be chosen because it works the best. People should be charitable because that is the right thing to do.

 

[EIF5A]

That’s the problem. Economic systems don’t do those things, people do.

An economic system should be chosen because it works the best. People should be charitable because that is the right thing to do.

That’s like saying “Greed doesn’t do anything, people do”.

Corporations, loan agencies, etc aren’t intrinsically bad by default. But when they engage in practices that maximize profit while exploiting the vulnerable, that becomes a problem.

 

[philipl]

No…
Nobody is talking about doing away with jobs. We need to work to provide for our families.
But when possible I tried to focus on problems and needs persons really had instead of creating the " need" so as to sell something,for instance.I ve always felt it as a waste ,but this is personal really. I would not like to be producing what I believe is pointless and leads us away from the important ,when I can be doing sth that is more useful for others.

So I ve always told my children that it is important to listen to their hearts when choosing their careers,university studies,but also to the needs of the people of their time,cause ultimately we are called to contribute for the good of all.And it is not a theory .they have a responsibility together with the possibility to study and work.
Does it help?

Can you point out some of the created “needs”? Can you be somewhat specific?

 

[Thomas_White]

I believe that Pope Francis is a leftist.

If this is what one believes, then IMHO one ought to just say so for it needs to come into the open for discussion. There is on this thread, as well as in other threads in the forum, a subtext that has it, 1) socialism is evil; 2) the pope is a socialist. And there is also a not surprising reluctance to put the two propositions together in the same sentence and say it. But it is surely implied.

To be clear, I am certainly not saying this is your belief and to be even clearer I realize you have not said you believe Pope Francis is a socialist. But it is apparent this is not an uncommon response to Laudato Si by those with conservative political views. It is. And it is there in abundance to see. Those who see it this way should have the integrity to just say so rather than trying to shift the implied blame, by use of a convoluted logical pretzel and political terms loaded with negative connotations, onto those who understand the encyclical and are only trying to explain it.

Laudato Si is a papal encyclical and not a political manifesto. It’s teaching concerns moral responsibility in the world, has nothing to do with politics and is solidly in alignment with traditional Catholic teaching. The discussion here should concern theology and not politics or political ideology, and to the extent a Catholic disagrees with the encyclical, as a result of political views, it seems to me they ought to realize they are also disagreeing with Catholic theology and teaching.

Some would do well to learn something of the life of Pope Francis and what he went through as a Jesuit missionary and provincial during the political chaos of Argentina during the '70’s. He was virtually exiled to Spain, and there he stayed until John Paul II rescued him from exile and Jesuit obscurity by approving his appointment as the auxiliary bishop, and eventual Archbishop, of Buenos Aires.

I mean, really. Does one suppose John Paul II would have appointed a radical leftist, Socialist or Marxist as the Archbishop of Buenos Aires, the largest diocese in Argentina, at a time when he was determined to suppress liberation theology in that country?

 

[lynnvinc]

I am curious, what do you do for a living? You see, I work for one of those corporations the Pope seems to be so critical of in some many of his speeches. My wife also works for one of those corporations. We dont work for the government, we dont get our pay checks from a church job, we dont earn a living working for an organization that needs donations to fund itself. We have to help create a product that people want to buy.

Of course, it is good that there are businesses that make products that we need and truly desire (beyond manufactured desire from ads and fads, etc). There is nothing wrong with that per se.

However, if those businesses are engaged in harming the environment and human health and well-being, that is bad (and of course, some harms may be there and cannot be avoided bec there are no alternatives and the product is very important to our well-being).

I think a good Catholic should perhaps stay in such a corp, even if it is causing harm or cheating people in some way, and do what he/she can to help the corp get on the right track.

I was developing a course, Business & the Environment, some 15 or so years ago. I came across corps that were trying to meet upcoming environmental regs in the least costly way, such as 3M, and the upshot was they found ways to get way below the reg limits AND save money. The chief CEO had put it to the managers, engineers/scientists, assembly line people, janitors, all employees, and they had come up with these cost-effective solutions. Then the CEO asked them that since this measure save money, why hadn’t they come up with them before, and they said that it had not be put to them that way. 3M even started their 3P program, Pollution Prevention Pays.

I have several similar stories…with businesses very surprised that they actually save money by doing the EC (environmentally correct) things.

So a person working in business could put forth some effort to see if there were ways that business could reduce its env impact in ways that didn’t have a net cost or actually saved money. We actually NEED such workers in those businesses.

And that goes for people working in all sectors. Look around and see what can be done to reduce environmental harms… You may be surprised that many of them actually save money.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

That’s like saying “Greed doesn’t do anything, people do”.

Corporations, loan agencies, etc aren’t intrinsically bad by default. But when they engage in practices that maximize profit while exploiting the vulnerable, that becomes a problem.

No it is not the same thing.

Capitalism allows individuals to freely make transactions which they deem beneficial. That’s the best system for human interaction.

Socialism forces people to make transactions even if they don’t want to.

Greedy and corrupt people can operate under both systems.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

If this is what one believes, then IMHO one ought to just say so for it needs to come into the open for discussion. There is on this thread, as well as in other threads in the forum, a subtext that has it, 1) socialism is evil; 2) the pope is a socialist. And there is also a not surprising reluctance to put the two propositions together in the same sentence and say it. But it is surely implied.

I believe Pope Francis is a good, honorable man seeking above all else to do the will of Jesus. I also believe that he is leftist and that his ideas about economic policy are wrong and harmful.

I don’t think there needs to be a contradiction in this. Honorable doctors(barbers) once thought they were doing their patients good by blood letting.

 

[lynnvinc]

I believe Pope Francis is a good, honorable man seeking above all else to do the will of Jesus. I also believe that he is leftist and that his ideas about economic policy are wrong and harmful.

I don’t think there needs to be a contradiction in this. Honorable doctors(barbers) once thought they were doing their patients good by blood letting.

I think Jesus is actually a communist!

Maybe it’s time to shop around for another religion

 

[graciew]

That’s fine, but you shouldn’t be attacking the jobs of others.

It seems that if you were in charge there wouldn’t be any ice cream, movies, or televisions!

Oh no ! You do not know me…
Things that are uplifting and make us happy are very wrlcome. Smiling is part of the journey ! I guess you would have to ask me to stop the music ! I sing in a band too…
Hahas these " no face to face " sites can be a mystery.It would be much easier in person.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I think Jesus is actually a communist!

Maybe it’s time to shop around for another religion

Yes, I think you should.

Better yet, get a better philosophy.

 

[graciew]

I think Jesus is actually a communist!

Maybe it’s time to shop around for another religion

Why ??? We would miss you.
We all have different gifts to share.
Our dear Jesus never asked for " just another brick in the wall".
You eould love our Pope ,he is a lovable simple person.
Consider staying !!!
Ps I see I am.typing like a monkey with a razor. Excuse mu mistakes.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Oh no ! You do not know me…
Things that are uplifting and make us happy are very wrlcome. Smiling is part of the journey ! I guess you would have to ask me to stop the music ! I sing in a band too…
Hahas these " no face to face " sites can be a mystery.It would be much easier in person.

That’s good news! Ha!

I played bass in several bands for many years.

 

[graciew]

That’s good news! Ha!

I played bass in several bands for many years.

Chesterton we have to consider our small intetnational mini business !!haha

 

[philipl]

Pope Francis was a Jesuit missionary in Buenos Aires, and his primary concern for at least the past forty years has been the huge numbers of desperately poor people in that region, as was very evident during his recent visit to South America. I don’t think his criticisms have been directed toward U.S. domestic politics. It really hasn’t been his focus.

The pope does seem to view global corporations as imposing a new colonialism. But, again, this seems to concern South America.

But its not the Global Corporation fault. Its their corrupt government.

 

[philipl]

I am glad you and your wife have a job.
No,the Pope is not anti capitalistic.
Try and get into the teachings of the Church,and make a reading of the Pope from there.try not to label him in ideological terms. You may figure out that he is just Catholic.
Again I do not get what you mean by “you cannot have corporations unless there are people that work for them”
And as far as the middle class is concerned,well… maybe he counts on us,and I would be glad if he did. We can hold on and give a hand while he takes care of those who are in a worse shape. He knows about our struggles,but we are fine compared to others,why demand his attention?he is an inclusive man,let us give him a break.

Name one "Global Corporation that doesnt have employees?

As to the answer if Francis is anti-capitalistic.

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usnews.com/opinion/blogs/mark-davis/2015/05/27/pope-francis-naive-views-on-poverty-and-capitalism-are-dangerous

socialistworker.org/2013/12/18/the-anti-capitalist-pope

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1502862.htm

thenation.com/article/pope-francis-right-government-has-role-addressing-injustice/

readersupportednews.org/pm-section/78-78/13183-so-how-come-jesus-preached-democracy-but-the-religious-right-undermines-it

christianpost.com/news/did-jesus-say-anything-about-voting-35204/

readersupportednews.org/pm-section/84-84/31290-pope-francis-calls-for-global-bankruptcy-process

You nor the Pope can show any proof what so ever the corporations big or small are the cause of poverty.

Nor can either of you prove that me throwing away 5 boxes of mac and cheese that stayed in the back of my pantry for two years took away that mac and cheese from someone else. There was a limited supply of mac and cheese and I kept someone else from buying it.

 

[Thomas_White]

I believe Pope Francis is a good, honorable man seeking above all else to do the will of Jesus. I also believe that he is leftist and that his ideas about economic policy are wrong and harmful.

I don’t think there needs to be a contradiction in this. Honorable doctors(barbers) once thought they were doing their patients good by blood letting.

Suppose a corporation were extremely profitable, its CEO and top executives receiving annual salaries of nine digits or more, plus stock options, bonuses and a score of perks, but refused to pay its workers a living wage or provide safe working conditions.

This is not economic policy. No, in a word it is greed, and it would be the very type of corporate behavior that Pope Francis is opposing in Laudato Si. It is immoral, and what’s puzzling is that nearly everyone already knew it.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Suppose a corporation were extremely profitable, its CEO and top executives receiving annual salaries of nine digits or more, plus stock options, bonuses and a score of perks, but refused to pay its workers a living wage or provide safe working conditions.

This is not economic policy. No, in a word it is greed, and it would be the very type of corporate behavior that Pope Francis is opposing in Laudato Si. It is immoral, and what’s puzzling is that nearly everyone already knew it.

If a CEO is exploiting his workers or providing unsafe working conditions then there is no doubt that is immoral behavior. But this type of behavior is not unique to capitalism. When I was a student worker in college, we had one week where the college had an expo and we worked more than 40 hours that week. Our boss made us falsify time sheets to put some of the time on next week so we wouldn’t get paid overtime. Was this immoral, of course it was, but it didn’t come from capitalism because it was at a government school. One guy got his overtime when he threatened to go to the labor board.

 

[Thomas_White]

If a CEO is exploiting his workers or providing unsafe working conditions then there is no doubt that is immoral behavior. But this type of behavior is not unique to capitalism. When I was a student worker in college, we had one week where the college had an expo and we worked more than 40 hours that week. Our boss made us falsify time sheets to put some of the time on next week so we wouldn’t get paid overtime. Was this immoral, of course it was, but it didn’t come from capitalism because it was at a government school. One guy got his overtime when he threatened to go to the labor board.

Yes, exactly right. As far as I understand it, the pope has not condemned capitalism but rather greed and corruption of the sort you experienced. This type of exploitation, when it becomes the practice of a global corporation, obviously occurs on a far larger scale. And it is equally wrong, despite its greater scale and for the very same reason. But under what particular economic system or other circumstances it occurs is not really the point.

The criticism of Laudato Si is somewhat puzzling when the objection is that the pope is supposedly critical of capitalism. But this objection can perhaps be understood as the result of interpreting the encyclical relative to political ideology. This not only ignores the fact the encyclical is a moral rather than an economic teaching but also dangerously generalizes the issue from concrete reality to one of ideas.

I have seen where Pope Francis has been quoted several times as saying the real is above the idea. In other words, if a company is depriving its workers of their just earnings it is wrong, we all know it is wrong, and the fact it occurs in a capitalistic system is beside the point. The point is the real, concrete fact. In this way, one realizes the teaching is not political but moral.

And I would think this would likely be the perspective of the Jesuit missionary working among the very poor.

 

[philipl]

I do believe that Francis is a wonderful man and truly believe his values on economics are at the heart of the problem on poverty. I also happen to believe him wrong on his economic values.

Folks want to use Greece and an example of how Austerity measures are harming the poor, when in fact it is the decades of spending money that Greece could never hope to pay back that did the real harm.