Pope Warns of Danger of Godless Society

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As a Baha’i I perceive a very great irony in the Popes ignoring three divine Revelations and then warning of a godless society. Like Peter denying the Lord three times, God spoke thru the Qur’án, as well as the Bayán of the Báb and the Iqan of Bahá’u’lláh, but the signs and prophecies, the evidences and proofs, the fresh blood and new world order from God are disdained, and not considered significant to pursue. Peter finally gave his life, tho.

So, the prescription of the divine Physician is not taken and the diseases, both social and spiritual are exacerbated. We are still trying to implemenl the principles in *Pacem in Terris *from Pope John XXIII, all of which which had been urged earlier by Bahá’u’lláh:
(1) A world community.
(2) Search after truth.
(3) Universal education.
(4) Equality between men and women.
(5) Oneness of mankind.
(6) Oneness of God.
(7) Science and religion.
(8) Disarmament.
(9) Atomic energy –a warning.
(10) Spiritual solution of the economic problem.
(11) Obedience to rulers.
(12) The common good.
Just how they compared can be seen in a Word document I can send to any who request it. MarkoPo1234@aol.com
 
You make two important points that will attempt to address.
As a Baha’i I perceive a very great irony in the Popes ignoring three divine Revelations and then warning of a godless society. Like Peter denying the Lord three times, God spoke thru the Qur’án, as well as the Bayán of the Báb and the Iqan of Bahá’u’lláh, but the signs and prophecies, the evidences and proofs, the fresh blood and new world order from God are disdained, and not considered significant to pursue. Peter finally gave his life, tho.
From the above I gleam that you believe that there are three important Divine Revelations and that the Holy Father ignored them, but Peter died for them.

Let’s look a this carefully. If they were true revelations they would have also been found in Catholic doctrine. In that case the pope need not mention them in his writings, because they are already included in the deposit of faith that every Catholic should study. To add this to another ducument when it already exist in a scholarly work becomes redundant.

If they are do not appear among the truths that subsist withing our faith, then they cannot be proclaimed as truths. I’m really sorry. We can promote them as vitues, but not truth.

The second point you mention is equally important. This current encyclical does not claim to have discovered the wheel. It claims to be a continuation of what has been known to be a truth. If it is a truth, it does not need to give credit to Bahauliah, because all truth flows from the God of Abraham who is pre-existend to any other deity or theocracy. This truth subsists within the Catholic Church through Apostolic Succession.

If your faith shares in these believes, let us thank God together that you have some points of convergence with the Catholic faith and that is the beginning towad union with us in the future.
So, the prescription of the divine Physician is not taken and the diseases, both social and spiritual are exacerbated. We are still trying to implemenl the principles in *Pacem in Terris *from Pope John XXIII, all of which which had been urged earlier by Bahá’u’lláh:
(1) A world community.
(2) Search after truth.
(3) Universal education.
(4) Equality between men and women.
(5) Oneness of mankind.
(6) Oneness of God.
(7) Science and religion.
(8) Disarmament.
(9) Atomic energy –a warning.
(10) Spiritual solution of the economic problem.
(11) Obedience to rulers.
(12) The common good.
Just how they compared can be seen in a Word document I can send to any who request it. MarkoPo1234@aol.com
Thanks for sharing this.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
As a Baha’i I perceive a very great irony in the Popes ignoring three divine Revelations and then warning of a godless society. Like Peter denying the Lord three times, God spoke thru the Qur’án, as well as the Bayán of the Báb and the Iqan of Bahá’u’lláh, but the signs and prophecies, the evidences and proofs, the fresh blood and new world order from God are disdained, and not considered significant to pursue. Peter finally gave his life, tho.
 
What an inflammatory and disrespectful commentary Ratzinger makes…

Can you imagine if he said a Jewish humanism is an inhuman humanism or a Buddhist humanism is an inhuman humanism. But he can claim that an atheistic humanism is inhuman??? Why??? This is borderline hate speech.

Belief in Jehovah can be destructive and inhuman as anything else.

Humanism affirms the worth and dignity of all people. It has no place and needs no place for man made gods.

And he should check his history. The ties between Nazism and christianity are deep – Hitler was a catholic who was NEVER ex-communicated.
 
Some may argue that God is a human invention to satisfy the gap that exists in human understanding of reality and man’s lack of understanding of himself. In other words, God is a stop-gap measure until we can come up with something real.
That’s not a bad nutshell version of much secular thinking about religion.
But there is a problem with this thinking. The millions of men and women around the globe who aspire for something transcendent is not mere biological coincidence, says Karl Rahner. It is a human fact, a part of man’s desire, a part of human nature. Man’s desire for the transcendent cannot be easily dismissed or ignored without grave consequences, Rahner said. It would be the same as ignoring man’s innate desire to procreate as a means to remain present even after he has gone, said Eric Erikson.
I don’t see why that’s a problem at all. If there’s a problem in thinking here, it’s ceding to Karl Rahner (or Piaget for that matter, below) any kind of authority in this matter at all. As a theologian, Rahner’s testimony is worth what? He might as well be an astrologist, explaining how we are born with an innate idea that our destiny is wrapped up in the location of the stars.

It’s this kind of casual, undisciplined thinking about the questions that produces the layers of superstition that get piled up here, one upon another, creating the edifice of religion. It’s precisely argumentation like this that I would point to as the “stop gap” people rely on in lieu of real world analysis and knowledge.
Piaget once said that man is the only creature who can biologically assimilate and accommodate to life, All other animals adapt, but retain their natural instincts, whereas man’s instincts seem to evolve into reason and deliberate operant behavior. There is no biological explanation for this other than to put it as the great Jewish psychiatrist wrote, “man’s search for meaning.” Victor Frankl once said that if man loses his search for mening he is subject to his inner passions, which do not liberate him, but only frustrate him, because without a transcendent reality they can never be fulfilled. Therefore, as William James said in his writings, the proof of man’s need for the transcendent lies in man’s very nature, not in his imagination.
There is a very simple and straightforward explanation for this. Man (so far as we know) is the only animal with a brain that has developed to the point where it is capable of arbitrary levels of abstraction, including levels of self-contemplation. That’s a neat feature of evolution, and humans are the only ones that have emerged with that faculty. That economically explains why we think in terms of transcendence – because we can. A brain that is equipped to think in abstract terms is a formidable asset for survival (which helps explain why we are here discussing this), but it is also capable of contemplating all sorts of other conceptual abstractions. With a brain so equipped, its an inevitability that we should get to musing about questions like “why are we here?”, and “what is the nature of reality?”, etc.

There isn’t any need to appeal to the supernatural to explain this.
Given that man is built with a desire to find the transcendent, it is impossible to build a civilized society in which there is no room for God. To do so would be to do as Pope John Paul II pointed out in Crossing the Threshold of Hope, to build a nihilistic society that has no end in sight and no purpose for a common good. When there is no reason for a common good, the only result is chaos and moral decomposition, as has been proven by the Communist experiment of Karl Marx.
I think you are quite correct that it is impossible to build a society without room for God, or the the idea of God, anyway. As Voltaire observed, if God never existed, we’d have to invent him. And so we have, many times over, in all sorts of permutations… God fashioned in man’s image by men (and women) of all sorts.

So there’s no getting away from the idea. It’s a fiction we are inclined to create because it’s useful, anodyne, something we desire to be true (many of us), even if it’s not. Another aspect of our evolutionary heritage is what is called our “intentionality”, our obsession with the intentions of the humans and other actors around us. Our keen fascination with intentionality – being able to detect a hint of deceit or betrayal in a fellow tribesman planning to overthrow you, or the tensing of a muscle in the prey you are stalking indicating it is about to take flight – produces an overactive imagination in areas where there are no discernible actors.

We think in terms of telos, strategy, plan, design. When you are a hammer, everything’s a nail. When you are a “design-obsessed-human”, everything looks designed. So we look around at the wonders of the starts and the beauty of nature, the delicate workings of the human hand, and think “This must be designed”.

In this psychological climate, preventing God as a conspiracy theory about the word is a futile idea. It’s an unstoppable idea, even and espectially if there’s no God. That doesn’t mean that idea has to hold sway, but you won’t ever extinguish it. It’s an artifact of human psychology.
Therefore, if man is to exist with meaning and society is to venture forth into the future as a cooperative body, it must have a common source of values and a common goal that transcends human weaknesses and failings. The only explanation is found in man’s inner interest and desire to find God, even in the most primitive expressions of faith.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF 🙂
I think that is gradually, and strongly being discredited as an idea, and “faith” is coming to be sign – rightly I think – as a major source of problems and divisions that work against the interests of man on the whole. This is easy to see just by apprehending the purely subjective nature of religion – and Catholicism is a good example of the type. As a subjective matter, it defies unification, utter thwarts universalization. Many honest, intelligent people, for example, are mystified that there are people who seriously believe there’s a God or gods at all. That’s a major defeater for the idea that somehow religion as an expression of subjective, mystical beliefs is even a plausible hope for a “common source of values”.

A practical solution is not easy, or straightforward, but grounding in objective experience is a crucial superiority over religion. Objectivity is amenable to commonality and universality where subjectivity is not. Christianity, like so many other religions, is fundamentally incompatible with objective testing and validation, and like so many other religions, can’t hope to be any kind of unifier, save for what can be “unified” at the point of sword and the end of a whip.

-Touchstone
 
What an inflammatory and disrespectful commentary Ratzinger makes…

Can you imagine if he said a Jewish humanism is an inhuman humanism or a Buddhist humanism is an inhuman humanism. But he can claim that an atheistic humanism is inhuman??? Why??? This is borderline hate speech.
Actually, it’s neither hate speech nor is it incorrect. Humanism is based on the highest aspirations of man and it is insired by the person of Jesus Christ, who is the God-Man or the perfect man. Any faith, whether Christian or other embraces some or many aspects of Christianity, not because it’s the humane thing to do or the inhumane thing to avoid, becuase it is an act of humans, not just a human act. Atheist does not have the moral codes that governs the acts of humans. Human acts are subjective Acts of humans are based on a moral code that is inscribed in the human conscience as an absolute.
Belief in Jehovah can be destructive and inhuman as anything else.
What is destructive about this? The man has not said anything that does harm.
Humanism affirms the worth and dignity of all people. It has no place and needs no place for man made gods.
Therefore, humanism is a god. It is absolute in and of itself.
And he should check his history. The ties between Nazism and christianity are deep – Hitler was a catholic who was NEVER ex-communicated.
Hitler did not need to be excommunicated for a number of reasons.
  1. He excommunicated himself by the atrocity of his sin.
  2. He was not a practicing Catholic. He had abandoned all practice of the faith many years before he came to power; therefore he had already excommunicated hisemf.
  3. He killed clergy and monks. That excommunicates you.
  4. He killed innocents, not in self-defense, but as an act hatred. That excommunicates you.
What would you want the Church to do when something is so obvious?

There tends to be an obsession in some circles to bring up Naziism. I am wondering if this has become even more pronounced since we have a German pope. It gives the impression that when we can’t deny what Pope Benedict XVI has to say, we go for the jugular. We bring up the Nazis and as I noticed at the beginning of your post, you even denied him hsi proper title, Pope Benedict XVI.

I don’t have to agree with someone, but he deserves to be respected and certainly not held in association with Nazis. That would be like holding Americans in associattion with Imperialist Yankeeism. The fact that there have been some, has nothing to do with the conversation evertime we speak about Americans. Most Americans are not imperialists.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Humanism is based on the highest aspirations of man and it is insired by the person of Jesus Christ, who is the God-Man or the perfect man.
You lost me. How is humanism inspired by the person of “Jesus Christ” (if he was ever a person who existed at all)? And how could a god-man be the perfect man? No man is perfect, and if a man possessed supernatural traits (a scientific impossibility) he is no longer a man that we could use as an example because real human beings in the real world are not supernatural.
There tends to be an obsession in some circles to bring up Naziism. I am wondering if this has become even more pronounced since we have a German pope. It gives the impression that when we can’t deny what Pope Benedict XVI has to say, we go for the jugular. We bring up the Nazis and as I noticed at the beginning of your post, you even denied him hsi proper title, Pope Benedict XVI.
It was Ratzinger who brought up the Nazi thing. He’s simply trying to associate atheism with nazism by putting them in the same context.

It’s an interesting point about not ex-communicating Hitler. But why officially ex-communicate anyone then? I mean, if you’re not going to formally ex-communicate Hitler, who DO you formally ex-communicate???

Using nazi concentration camps to prove that atheistic humanism (as if there were any other kind) is bad seems so misguided. At least choose a atheistic regime, like stalinism, if you want to attempt such a strategy.

But of course atheism in and of itself is simply the lack of belief in gods – it is neither intrinsically good or bad.

Humanism does not require any gods, but that does not make it a god any more than something like science. Humanism is not absolute. Nothing can be absolute, all is situational, the world around us constantly changes.
What is destructive about this? The man has not said anything that does harm.
You need me to list the evil done in the name of Jehovah or Jesus or whatever other deity people invent. I don’t know, talk to those bishops in Boston that covered up sexual abuse of minors to avoid scandal to Jesus’ church… i thought it would be obvious.
 
If you don’t agree with anything the, or any church believes… why are you here on this web forum?
 
I agree with the pope. Let’s see what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say about atheism, agnosticism, and irreligion:
Irreligion

2118
God’s first commandment condemns the main sins of irreligion: tempting God, in words or deeds, sacrilege, and simony.
2119 Tempting God consists in putting his goodness and almighty power to the test by word or deed. Thus Satan tried to induce Jesus to throw himself down from the Temple and, by this gesture, force God to act.49 Jesus opposed Satan with the word of God: "You shall not put the LORD your God to the test."50 The challenge contained in such tempting of God wounds the respect and trust we owe our Creator and Lord. It always harbors doubt about his love, his providence, and his power.51
2120 *Sacrilege *consists in profaning or treating unworthily the sacraments and other liturgical actions, as well as persons, things, or places consecrated to God. Sacrilege is a grave sin especially when committed against the Eucharist, for in this sacrament the true Body of Christ is made substantially present for us.52
2121 *Simony *is defined as the buying or selling of spiritual things.53 To Simon the magician, who wanted to buy the spiritual power he saw at work in the apostles, St. Peter responded: "Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain God’s gift with money!"54 Peter thus held to the words of Jesus: "You received without pay, give without pay."55 It is impossible to appropriate to oneself spiritual goods and behave toward them as their owner or master, for they have their source in God. One can receive them only from him, without payment.
2122 The minister should ask nothing for the administration of the sacraments beyond the offerings defined by the competent authority, always being careful that the needy are not deprived of the help of the sacraments because of their poverty."56 The competent authority determines these “offerings” in accordance with the principle that the Christian people ought to contribute to the support of the Church’s ministers. "The laborer deserves his food."57
Atheism
**
2123** "Many . . . of our contemporaries either do not at all perceive, or explicitly reject, this intimate and vital bond of man to God. Atheism must therefore be regarded as one of the most serious problems of our time."58
2124 The name “atheism” covers many very different phenomena. One common form is the practical materialism which restricts its needs and aspirations to space and time. Atheistic humanism falsely considers man to be "an end to himself, and the sole maker, with supreme control, of his own history."59 Another form of contemporary atheism looks for the liberation of man through economic and social liberation. "It holds that religion, of its very nature, thwarts such emancipation by raising man’s hopes in a future life, thus both deceiving him and discouraging him from working for a better form of life on earth."60
2125 Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion.61 The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. "Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion."62
2126 Atheism is often based on a false conception of human autonomy, exaggerated to the point of refusing any dependence on God.63 Yet, "to acknowledge God is in no way to oppose the dignity of man, since such dignity is grounded and brought to perfection in God. . . . "64 "For the Church knows full well that her message is in harmony with the most secret desires of the human heart."65
Agnosticism

2127
Agnosticism assumes a number of forms. In certain cases the agnostic refrains from denying God; instead he postulates the existence of a transcendent being which is incapable of revealing itself, and about which nothing can be said. In other cases, the agnostic makes no judgment about God’s existence, declaring it impossible to prove, or even to affirm or deny.
2128 Agnosticism can sometimes include a certain search for God, but it can equally express indifferentism, a flight from the ultimate question of existence, and a sluggish moral conscience. Agnosticism is all too often equivalent to practical atheism.
 
You lost me. How is humanism inspired by the person of “Jesus Christ” (if he was ever a person who existed at all)? And how could a god-man be the perfect man? No man is perfect, and if a man possessed supernatural traits (a scientific impossibility) he is no longer a man that we could use as an example because real human beings in the real world are not supernatural.
First of all, there is evidence that Jesus of Nazareth lived. There are a number of wonderful works on this historical fact, incuding The Quest of the Historical Jesus which is one of my favorties, because it is not committed to either side the argument. There there is issue of the power of Jesus’ presence in world history. The world is divided over the teachings of one man and the faith in that man.

Second, Jesus Christ is the only man who has ever revealed himself as fully human and fully devine. In Jesus Christ humanity and divinity co-exist without blendin. You say that this is scientifically impossibe. What is scientifically impossible, does not mean that it is impossible. Science is not God. Science is a tool, not above us, but at our disposal. Tools are improved daily. Maybe some day we’ll be able to use tehcnology and other empirical sciences to prove that Jesus had two natures. For the time being we’ll have to trust in faith, and use reason to understand what we believe. If you don’t believe it, then don’t bother exploring it. What’s the use?
It was Ratzinger who brought up the Nazi thing. He’s simply trying to associate atheism with nazism by putting them in the same context.
It’s an interesting point about not ex-communicating Hitler. But why officially ex-communicate anyone then? I mean, if you’re not going to formally ex-communicate Hitler, who DO you formally ex-communicate???
No ecclesial community can excommunicate a person who is already excommunicated or one who does not belong. For example, Catholics cannot excommunicate Orthodox any more than they can excommunicate Mormons and so forth. You can’t kick someone out who is not insde, either because they forfeited their membership or because they were never members.

quote]Using nazi concentration camps to prove that atheistic humanism (as if there were any other kind) is bad seems so misguided. At least choose a atheistic regime, like stalinism, if you want to attempt such a strategy.

But of course atheism in and of itself is simply the lack of belief in gods – it is neither intrinsically good or bad.

The problem or weakness atheism, which is why it cannot be recognized a human humanism is that atheitic humanism does not promote human transcendence. When all human life if over, so is humanity’s contrituion towad his own self-fulfillment. Through the resurrection of Christ, we learn that every man is destined to life after the here and now and that we have an opportunity to anticipate it, because we are human beings. Human beings are the onl sentient beings who have a sense of transcendence.
Humanism does not require any gods, but that does not make it a god any more than something like science. Humanism is not absolute. Nothing can be absolute, all is situational, the world around us constantly changes.
Birth and death are very absolute, so is pregnancy. You’re born. You’re dead. You’re pregnant. Like this there aer may absolutes. It makes litle sense that the existence of absolutes would preclude abosolute rules.
You need me to list the evil done in the name of Jehovah or Jesus or whatever other deity people invent. I don’t know, talk to those bishops in Boston that covered up sexual abuse of minors to avoid scandal to Jesus’ church… i thought it would be obvious.
Everyone knows this happened. Everyone knows that there the situation was mismanaged. Everone also knows that this is not the only situation in this world that has been mismaged or that clerics are not the only ones who have mismanaged them.

You failed to mention the situations that have been misnamaged by Muslims, Jews, political leaders, parents, spouses, legal systems, health care, the military, my mother, even me. But I have never stopped believing in the potential for good among these groups. That would truly result in chaos.

In the words of our Holy Father St Francis, “Pefect Joy is not about being sinless or living in a sinless world, but in having the patience to gradually tansform the sinful to the holy, even when we’re persecuted for it.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
First of all, there is evidence that Jesus of Nazareth lived. There are a number of wonderful works on this historical fact, incuding The Quest of the Historical Jesus which is one of my favorties, because it is not committed to either side the argument. There there is issue of the power of Jesus’ presence in world history. The world is divided over the teachings of one man and the faith in that man.
I don’t want this thread to degenerate into a did jesus exist argument – my main point is why does the pope attack atheists so vehemently? If his statement was warning of the dangers of an islamic society (like what great britain is moving towards right now) his comments would garner international attention as hate speech, there would be muslims rioting in the streets, and he would probably have to issue a formal apology.

But he can spew his bigotry against atheists at will. Partly this is the atheist’s community fault for not being outspoken enough, not taking enough offense, and standing up for ourselves.

His comment is erroneous on so many levels. The evidence suggests that there is very little danger in godless society. In fact the most peaceful, healthiest, and happiest societies on the planet also happen to be the most godless (see visionofhumanity.org/gpi/results/rankings.php). Millions of people practise humanism, do good in the world, and do not believe in any sky-daddy gods. Calling them inhuman is offensive, degrading, and base. And this nonsense about needing an absolute (whatever that is) to be a humanist makes no sense. Humanism does not require gods to be function. If this makes it an absolute than so be it, I don’t care what word games you want to play.
Second, Jesus Christ is the only man who has ever revealed himself as fully human and fully devine. In Jesus Christ humanity and divinity co-exist without blendin. You say that this is scientifically impossibe. What is scientifically impossible, does not mean that it is impossible. Science is not God. Science is a tool, not above us, but at our disposal. Tools are improved daily. Maybe some day we’ll be able to use tehcnology and other empirical sciences to prove that Jesus had two natures. For the time being we’ll have to trust in faith, and use reason to understand what we believe. If you don’t believe it, then don’t bother exploring it. What’s the use?
Well at least we agree that science is not god. So in a previous post you said humanism is a god, do you take that back? Science has shown us that there are no ghosts in our brains. Dualism has been quashed by science. We are physical entities. It defies all empirism to say that a man could be a god. It is as coherent as saying that my dog is both dog and angel.
No ecclesial community can excommunicate a person who is already excommunicated or one who does not belong. For example, Catholics cannot excommunicate Orthodox any more than they can excommunicate Mormons and so forth. You can’t kick someone out who is not insde, either because they forfeited their membership or because they were never members.
But Hitler WAS CATHOLIC!
The problem or weakness atheism, which is why it cannot be recognized a human humanism is that atheitic humanism does not promote human transcendence. When all human life if over, so is humanity’s contrituion towad his own self-fulfillment. Through the resurrection of Christ, we learn that every man is destined to life after the here and now and that we have an opportunity to anticipate it, because we are human beings. Human beings are the onl sentient beings who have a sense of transcendence.
You lost me again. Atheism is the lack of belief in gods. Humanism is a secular philosophy that recognizes the worth of every human being. If anything, the after life degrades our current existence as nothing important. Who cares if someone suffers on earth? This is just temporary, they’ll be flying up to their heavenly sky-daddy to live happily ever after. Atheistic humanism recognizes that this life is all we have, and it is a tragedy when humans are abused, exploited, and not given rights.
Everyone knows this happened. Everyone knows that there the situation was mismanaged. Everone also knows that this is not the only situation in this world that has been mismaged or that clerics are not the only ones who have mismanaged them.
You failed to mention the situations that have been misnamaged by Muslims, Jews, political leaders, parents, spouses, legal systems, health care, the military, my mother, even me. But I have never stopped believing in the potential for good among these groups. That would truly result in chaos.
Yes, but clerics are the self-professed representatives of “Jesus Christ” on earth – their behavior ought to be better than the “others”. If a christian system can systematically produce such evil, then cover it up in the name of saving Jesus’ church from scandal – then it is a morally bankrupt system. The pope should worry about the evil within his own ranks before attacking atheists.

As for the did jesus exist topic, perhaps we should start another thread on the topic – i’m new to CAF – but i’m guessing this has been discussed before? I added that paranthesis only because I feel it irresponsible to assume he does when the evidence is ambiguous. I’m personally agnostic on the subject. But I would agree that the most convincing evidence of a historical Jesus beyond the origins of the christianities is the impact – there does seem to be evidence of a succession battle in the NT between the ‘brothers of the Lord’, James’ faction (aka the Petrites) – and those like the super-apostle to the gentiles (aka the Paulinists). Many religions who claim a historical founder almost certainly did (mormonism for example), others are a little more suspect (buddhism, islam, christianity), and others certainly have only a mythical figurehead (dionysisu, osiris).

Is the world really divided over the teachings of Jesus? I’d say the vast 5+ billions of us human beings on the planet who are non-chrisitan really don’t care what Jesus had to say. The people who are most divided over the teachings of Jesus are christians themselves.
 
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