Popes and Ex Catheda

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Let me echo Catholic2003. I can point to the papal bull that prohibited Catholics from living near Jews, and there are several others which simply don’t apply any more. Not everything that popes wrote or councils promulgated is for the ages. For instance, Unam Sanctam is addressed to a specific problem of the time, the Church vs. Philip of Spain.

John
 
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JSmitty2005:
I will ask you again, where did you find this malachi_a_serva?! Plus, I thought that the only 2 explicitly ex cathedra statements were for the Immaculate Conception and Assumption, but I could be wrong. That’s a very good quote and I don’t see why you think it supports your view or is contrary to any Church teachings. Catholics are taught to always look to the literal first and then the other three senses of Scripture:

catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0405bt.asp
Hi there. I had posted this quote here and on another thread. I posted it prior to validating it. I am confidednt of the source, however have yet to validate it. My apologies. I believe it is from 1950 incase someone else can confirm it. I have been going through various writtens of this Pope and will continue to in attempts to validate it. My apologies again. I will not stand behind it unless I can confirm yet so as of right now, it is unqualified.
 
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JSmitty2005:
Why is that absurd? It makes sense to me. How can usury be a sin in the past but not now? That just doesn’t make sense. I’m beginning to question Catholicism altogether considering that it’s obviously not the Faith that it once was. :ehh: 😦
That wasn’t a Church teaching. Church teachings apply to ALL CATHOLICS. Pope Benedict XIV’s Vix Pervenit: was only for those in Italy. It is known as a decretal. Decretals
only have to do with discipline, which can change. They are not Church teachings.
The Catholic Encyclopedia says:
(1) In the wide sense of the term decretalis (i.e. epistola decretalis) signifies a pontifical letter containing a decretum, or pontifical decision.
(2) In a narrower sense it denotes a decision on a matter of discipline.
(3) In the strictest sense of the word, it means a rescript (rescriptum), i. e. an answer of the pope when he has been appealed to or his advice has been sought on a matter of discipline.

But for more on the Church teaching on usury, which has NOT changed see this paper
64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:f8zZPtvLGNoJ:frcoulter.com/presentations/usury/usury.rtf+judge+noonan+decretals&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5&client=opera

by Father Gary L. Coulter
 
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dcdurel:
That wasn’t a Church teaching. Church teachings apply to ALL CATHOLICS. Pope Benedict XIV’s Vix Pervenit: was only for those in Italy. It is known as a decretal.
Vix Pervenit was an encyclical.

Church teachings apply to whoever they say they apply to. It is not permitted to reject a Church teaching merely because it doesn’t apply to everyone else.
 
Catholic2003 said:
Vix Pervenit was an encyclical.

Church teachings apply to whoever they say they apply to. It is not permitted to reject a Church teaching merely because it doesn’t apply to everyone else.

It was an encyclical addressed ONLY:
To the Venerable Brothers, Patriarchs, Archbishops, Bishops and Ordinary Clergy of Italy.

It was NOT a teaching addressed to the whole Church. It was a matter of discipline for the clergy in Italy. It was a decretal in the form of an encyclical to the clergy in Italy.

For something to be considered a teaching of the Church it must apply to ALL Catholics.
For example. We cannot say that theft is forbidden for those in Italy, but in the rest of the world of the theft is permitted.

If a Church teaching doesn’t apply to everyone, it never was a
Church teaching. The Church has a duty to preach the Gospel to “all nations”, as Jesus said.
Thus, if the Pope addresses a matter of discipline to only a few Catholics, it is NOT Church teaching.
Look up the definition of decretals
 
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Catholic2003:
This might be a loose paraphrase from Divino Afflante Spiritu (1943) or Humani Generis (1950), but neither is considered ex cathedra by most theologians.
papal infallibility from Vatican I:

“. . . the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra, that is,
when, acting in the office of shepherd and teacher of all
Christians, he defines, by virtue of his supreme apostolic
authority, doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by
the universal Church, possesses through the divine assistance
promised to him in the person of St. Peter, the infallibility
with which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to be endowed in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals; and that such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are therefore irreformable
because of their nature, but not because of the agreement of
the Church.” [First Dogmatic Constitution on the Church of Christ]

The Four Tests of Infallibility
There are, clearly, four tests of infallibility: The Pope must be (1)
intending to teach (2) by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority (3) a matter of Faith or morals
(4) to be held by the universal Church.

Which test is missing in those encyclicals?

Obviously none.
Therefore the Pope is teaching infallibly in the teachings presented in them.
 
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dcdurel:
Therefore the Pope is teaching infallibly in the teachings presented in them.
Faithful Catholics can rely on two magisterial teachings that tell us that Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is not an exercise of ex cathedra papal teaching. Until you can explain this fact using your simplistic analysis of Vatican I’s criteria, I have to conclude that your application of those criteria is incorrect.
 
The Four Tests of Infallibility

There are, clearly, four tests of infallibility: The Pope must be
(1) intending to teach (2) by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority (3) a matter of Faith or morals (4) to be held by the universal Church.

These four criteria are simple enough for anyone to test.
This means that theologians, scripture scholars, cardinals, bishops, priests and laity cannot give a judgment on whether a teaching was given infallibly. For then we would denigrate this teaching of Vatican I and make subject to the judgement of another person. The lone person would be upsurping Vatican I. and making himself greater than the Pope giving the teaching The teaching of Vatican I stands on its own. It was approved by the Pope, therefore Vatican I itself is infallible.

Decretals fail on two counts. First they are matters of discipline, not teaching. Second, they are not addressed to the universal Church.

Someone wrote:
“This might be a loose paraphrase from Divino Afflante Spiritu (1943) or Humani Generis (1950), but neither is considered ex cathedra by most theologians.”

Divino Afflante Spiritu (1943) or Humani Generis (1950), were written to correct the false ideas of these very scripture scholars and theologians. They are the last persons we would look to for pronouncing judgments on the teaching of the Pope.

Since both these encyclicals EASILY meet the four requirements, they are the result of infallible teaching by the Pope.

It is pure stupidity to look to others for determing whether a Pope was teaching infallibly. To do so is to make that person greater than the Pope himself. Can we trust anyone else?
Theologians and scripture scholars are the source of almost all heresies in the 2000 years history of the Church. We can’t trust them.
And the reasons these heresies were able to spread was because of the complicity of Catholic bishops. We can’t trust them.
Priests and the laity will buy into heresies in a moment’s time.
Can’t trust them.

It is ONLY the Popes that have never given into false teachings. It is ONLY the Popes’ teachings that we can trust, because Jesus built His Church upon that office of Peter and his successors.

Jesus made the Popes infallibe in their teachings. To reject the Pope’s teachings for the universal Church is to reject Jesus Himself.

If you love Jesus, you will love the teachings of the Popes.
If you reject the teachings of Jesus, you will reject the teachings of the Popes.
 
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dcdurel:
It was an encyclical addressed ONLY:
To the Venerable Brothers, Patriarchs, Archbishops, Bishops and Ordinary Clergy of Italy.
That’s because the contrary doctrine (that charging interest was moral) was being taught in Italy.
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dcdurel:
It was NOT a teaching addressed to the whole Church.
This makes it non-infallible. It doesn’t make it a matter of discipline.

Archbishop Burke taught that voting for a pro-abortion candidate was immoral. Since this teaching was only addressed to his diocese, by your logic that would make it a matter of discipline.
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dcdurel:
It was a matter of discipline for the clergy in Italy.
Perhaps you should read Father Gary L. Coulter’s paper more closely. It says:
Some then argue that the usury prohibition was only a disciplinary teaching, something the Church could change at any time. Yet why then was it taught so strongly and by so many? And why would bankers be treated as outcasts from society over a discipline? This position runs contrary to the primary reasons behind the prohibition, which is clearly based on a natural law argument, not an ecclesiastical discipline. Usury was prohibited because it was considered to already be a sin, not because the Church made it into a sin.
 
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dcdurel:
It is pure stupidity to look to others for determing whether a Pope was teaching infallibly. To do so is to make that person greater than the Pope himself. Can we trust anyone else?
But what about when the Pope himself states that one of his teachings is not ex cathedra? Or when the Vatican curia, working with express papal approval, make such a statement?

In these cases, faithful Catholics should listen to their Magisterium.
 
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Catholic2003:
But what about when the Pope himself states that one of his teachings is not ex cathedra? Or when the Vatican curia, working with express papal approval, make such a statement?

In these cases, faithful Catholics should listen to their Magisterium.
But, if the Magisterium is not teaching ex cathedra, why should we listen to them?
Thus you have the problem. Which is, is that second statement of the Pope itself or the Vatican Curia ex cathedra? Will we need a statement on the statement to determine if that statement is ex cathedra?
Where does it end? Vatican 1 said nothing about ex cathedra teachings requiring additional comments by anyone else, including the Popes or the Vatican curia. Their teachings stand on their own. If their teachings meet the four requirtements, then they were teaching infallibly. That is all Vatican 1 said we need.
Vatican 1 will not change. Popes cannot change Church teachings and will not change Church teachings, because they come from God and God cannot change, since He is already perfect.

All we need is the four criteria. Stop looking for the approval of others. Believe what the Church teaches.

There are, clearly, four tests of infallibility: The Pope must be
(1) intending to teach
(2) by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority
(3) a matter of Faith or morals
(4) to be held by the universal Church.

There is NOT a fifth test
(5) must be approved by a Pope, Vatican Curia, Cardinal, bishop, theologian or scripture scholar, EWTN, local pastor, etc.
 
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dcdurel:
But, if the Magisterium is not teaching ex cathedra, why should we listen to them?
Because that’s what faithful Catholics are called to do. Lumen Gentium 25 states:
This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will.
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dcdurel:
Thus you have the problem.
I don’t have any problem with being a faithful Catholic.
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dcdurel:
Believe what the Church teaches.
I do believe what the Church teaches. You’re the one who is dissenting from the magisterial statements of Cardinal Ratzinger and Archbishop Bertone.
 
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USMC:
The fallible must be interpreted in accord with the infallible.
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Catholic2003:
That is exactly what Protestants say when they claim to have the authority to judge the Catholic Church against their personal interpretation of Scripture.
Not quite. The Bible is inspired and infallible, yes, but each person’s interpretation of it is not. The Protestants are using their fallible interpretation of the Bible, to argue against the Church.

The Church has given us many infallible declarations which are very clear, easy to understand, and in perfect agreement with all magisterial documents and catechisms prior to 1960. These infallible dogmas are the foundation of the Catholic faith. It is to these infallible dogmas that Catholics must give their complete assent.

The Church also speaks on the level of the ordinary magisterium, which is not always protected by the charism of infallibility. The faithful are required to submit to these teachings as well.

Normally, the teachings of the ordinary magesterium are in perfect harmony with the infallible teachings of the extra-ordinary magisterium.

But if it ever happens that the Church begins to teach new things which are contrary to what the Church has always taught, and contrary to the infallible dogmas, a Catholic is bound to hold fast to what has always been taught, and infallibly defined as true.

No one - not even the Pope - has the authority to change any doctrines of the Church. In fact, I will go further than that: Not only can a Pope not change a doctrine, he cannot even teach anything new. The Pope, just as all other Catholics, is bound to submit to the infallible declarations of his predecessors.

The first Vatican Council, which defined Papal Infallibility stated that the Holy Ghost was not promised to the Pope so that he could define new doctrines; but that he could guard and protect the deposit of faith:

**First Vatican Council: "The Holy Ghost was not promised to the successors of Peter that by His revelation they might disclose new doctrine, but that by His help they might guard sacredly the revelation transmitted through the apostles, and the deposit of Faith, and might faithfully set it forth." (Db 1836 in The Sources of Catholic Dogma, p. 456).

The Popes primary duty is to guard and protect the deposit of faith. This includes, among other things, to define doctrines that have been handed down from the apostles. The Church teaches that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle, and as such, no new doctrine will be revealed. Thus, the job of the Pope is not to reveal anything new, but to guard, protect, and define what has always been believed.

Neither is the Pope is allowed to depart from the meaning and understanding of dogmas that the Church has held. Understanding can deepen, yes, but the understanding and meaning must always remain the same.

First Vatican Council: “For the doctrine of the faith which God has revealed is put forward not as some philosophical discovery capable of being perfected by human intelligence, but as a divine deposit committed to the spouse of Christ to be faithfully protected and infallibly promulgated.
“Hence, too,that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a deeper understanding.

“May undetstanding, knowledge and wisdom increase as ages and centuries roll along, and greatly and vigorously flourish, in each and all, in the individual and the whole church: **but this only in its own proper kind, that is to say, in the same doctrine, the same sense, and the same understanding”. (First Vatican Council, Chapter 4, 13-14)

continue****
 
continuation
This attitude is no more wrong than when traditionalists claim to have the authority to judge Vatican II against their personal interpretation of prior papal and conciliar documents.
In the portion of Vatican I that I quoted above, the last paragraph is a direct quote from St. Vincent of Lerins, whose words were incorporated into the documents of the council – and became part of the Council – since they so accurately reflected what the council was teaching.

The following quote is from Cardinal Ratzinger. He is commenting on this teaching of St. Vincent of Lerins as found in the infallible documents of the first Vatican Council:

Cardinal Ratzinger: “Vatican II’s refusal of the proposal to adopt the text of Lerins, familiar to, and, as it were, sanctified by two Church Councils, shows once more how Trent and Vatican I were left behind, how their texts were continually reinterpreted…Vatican II had a new idea of how historical identity and continuity are to be brought about. The static simper[always the same]of Vincent of Lerins no longer seems to Vatican II adequate to express the problem. (L.Th.K., Vol. 13, p.521)

So, according to Cardinal Ratzinger, Vatican II “left bind” the teaching of the infallible councils of Trent and Vatican I regarding tradition, to pursue a “new idea”. This “new idea” is known as “living Tradition” by which is meant that Tradition is not that which has always been taught. No, “living Tradition” is a Tradition that evolves and changes “through the pondering in the heart of believers”.

This is how the liberals justify their departure from Church teaching: by claiming that it evolves and changes due to either the times we live in, or through a so-called “deeper understanding” (which was specifically forbidden by Vatican I).
Faithful Catholics follow the living Magisterium of the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ, and place their trust in that living Magisterium, relying on Christ’s words, “And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”
Yes, but remember what Vatican I taught about the promise that our Lord made to St. Peter. It taught that:
“The Holy Ghost was not promised to the successors of Peter that by His revelation they might disclose new doctrine, but that by His help they might guard sacredly the revelation transmitted through the apostles and the deposit of Faith, and might faithfully set it forth”. (Vatican I)

Therefore, let us follow the timeless magisterium and firmly hold to what has always been taught. And if we are given ambiguous documents that can be interpreted in more than one way, we know what we are to do: we are to hold fast to what the Church has always taught; and interpret the ambiguous documents so that the meaning is in line with what has always been taught.

But to do that we must know what the Church has always taught; and for this all that is required is to read any Catechism produces prior to 1960 – the year that the Church entered the crisis she has yet to come out of.
 
I wrote, “But, if the Magisterium is not teaching ex cathedra, why should we listen to them?”
Only to give the arguement so often quoted by dissidents, that only ex cathedra statements are binding.
You wrote
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Catholic2003:
Because that’s what faithful Catholics are called to do. Lumen Gentium 25 states:

This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will.
Even if the magisterium did give comments and require us to believe their comments as part of their teaching authority, which they did not, you are making non ex cathedra statements be given before we can accept ex cathedra statements.

The problem again is that their are only 4 requirements for* ex cathedra* statements, not 5. You are trying to change Church teachings by requiring a non ex-cathedra statement be given for every ex cathedra statement.
I don’t have any problem with being a faithful Catholic.
Then why don’t you believe Vatican 1?
Why do you insist on a 5’th requirment that is not taught anywere by the Church?
I do believe what the Church teaches. You’re the one who is dissenting from the magisterial statements of Cardinal Ratzinger and Archbishop Bertone.
First, we don’t have to agree on magisterial statements, only magisterial teachings.
They are not magisterial teachings, because they are not made in union with the Pope.

Magisterial teachings are only those made by the Pope or by bishops in union with the Pope.
In Vatican 1 the Pope did not approve of any fifth requirement for ex cathedra statements, nor have they ever changed Vatican 1 to require a fifth requirement for ex-cathedra teachings. The Popes’ teachings are sufficient by themselves. Therefore Cardinal Raztinger and Archishop Bertone were not giving magisterial teachings.
The Pope’s ex cathedra teachings don’t need approval by the Roman Curia, Cardinals, Archbishop Bertone, Bishops, and especially not by theologians and scripture scholars who are the source of all heresies in the history of Christianity.

There are, clearly, four tests of infallibility: The Pope must be (1)
intending to teach (2) by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority (3) a matter of Faith or morals
(4) to be held by the universal Church.
Unless one is missing, the Pope is teaching ex cathedra, infallibly.
Those who are faithful to the Church immediately accept the teachings of the Popes when they meet these requirments.
Those who don’t like the teachings try to add a fifth requirement,
such as approval by theologians, scripture scholars, newspaper commentators, Fr. McBrien, Vatican Curia, etc, etc, etc.
 
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dcdurel:
Even if the magisterium did give comments and require us to believe their comments as part of their teaching authority, which they did not, you are making non ex cathedra statements be given before we can accept ex cathedra statements.
Perhaps you could supply a list of those official CDF statements that you choose to treat as “optional”. I prefer to give my religious assent to all of them.

You claim that Ordinatio Sacerdotalis meets the Vatican I criteria for ex cathedra teaching. The offficial CDF response states that it does not. As a faithful Catholic, I choose to believe the CDF, and thus to disagree with you. I don’t see what this has to do with any “fifth requirement”.
 
John Higgins:
Let me echo Catholic2003. I can point to the papal bull that prohibited Catholics from living near Jews, and there are several others which simply don’t apply any more.

John
I’d like to see those Bulls you are referring to…

Also keep in mind that the subject of “living near Jews” is not a dealing with a doctrinal matter. Whatever you are referring to is probably on the level of canon law, which can and does change.
 
From A Quo Primum Pope Benedict XIV, 1751:
  1. In regard to the matter of the Jews We must express our concern, which causes Us to cry aloud: “the best color has been changed.” Our credible experts in Polish affairs and the citizens of Poland itself who communicated with Us have informed Us that the number of Jews in that country has greatly increased. In fact, some cities and towns which had been predominantly Christian are now practically devoid of Christians.
The Jews have so replaced the Christians that some parishes are about to lose their ministers because their revenue has dwindled so drastically. Because the Jews control businesses selling liquor and even wine, they are therefore allowed to supervise the collection of public revenues. They have also gained control of inns, bankrupt estates, villages and public land by means of which they have subjugated poor Christian farmers. The Jews are cruel taskmasters, not only working the farmers harshly and forcing them to carry excessive loads, but also whipping them for punishment. So it has come about that those poor farmers are the subjects of the Jews, submissive to their will and power. Furthermore, although the power to punish lies with the Christian official, he must comply with the commands of the Jews and inflict the punishments they desire. If he doesn’t, he would lose his post. Therefore the tyrannical orders of the Jews have to be carried out.
  1. In addition to the harm done to Christians in these regards, other unreasonable matters can result in even greater loss and danger. The most serious is that some households of the great have employed a Jew as “Superintendent-of-the-Household”; in this capacity, they not only administer domestic and economic matters, but they also ceaselessly exhibit and flaunt authority over the Christians they are living with. It is now even commonplace for Christians and Jews to intermingle anywhere. But what is even less comprehensible is that Jews fearlessly keep Christians of both sexes in their houses as their domestics, bound to their service. Furthermore, by means of their particular practice of commerce, they amass a great store of money and then by an exorbitant rate of interest utterly destroy the wealth and inheritance of Christians. Even if they borrow money from Christians at heavy and undue interest with their synagogues as surety, it is obvious to anyone who thinks about it that they do so to employ the money borrowed from Christians in their commercial dealings; this enables them to make enough profit to pay the agreed interest and simultaneously increase their own store. At the same time, they gain as many defenders of their synagogues and themselves as they have creditors.
  1. But if it is asked what matters the Apostolic See forbids to Jews living in the same cities as Christians, We will say that all those activities which are now allowed in Poland are forbidden; these We recounted above. There is no need of much reading to understand that this is the clear truth of the matter. It is enough to peruse decretals with the heading ; the constitutions of Our predecessors, the Roman Pontiffs Nicholas IV, Paul IV, St. Pius V, Gregory XIII and Clement VIII are readily available in the Roman Bullarium. To understand these matters most clearly, Venerable Brothers, you do not even need to read those. You will recall the statutes and prescripts of the synods of your predecessors; they always entered in their constitutions every measure concerning the Jews which was sanctioned and ordained by the Roman Pontiffs.
  1. The essence of the difficulty, however, is that either the sanctions of the synods are forgotten or they are not put into effect. To you then, Venerable Brothers, passes the task of renewing those sanctions. The nature of your office requires that you carefully encourage their implementation. In this matter begin with the clergy, as is fair and reasonable. These will have to show others the right way to act, and light the way for the rest by their example. For in God’s mercy, We hope that the good example of the clergy will lead the straying laity back to the straight path. You will be able to give these orders and commands easily and confidently, in that neither your property nor your privileges are hired to Jews; furthermore you do no business with them and you neither lend them money nor borrow from them. Thus, you will be free from and unaffected by all dealings with them.
This was directed to the primates of Poland. While not infallible on its face (remember I have doubts about retroactive infallibility anyway), references in the document point to numerous pontiffs and numerous countries.

John
 
John Higgins:
From A Quo Primum Pope Benedict XIV, 1751:

This was directed to the primates of Poland. While not infallible on its face (remember I have doubts about retroactive infallibility anyway), references in the document point to numerous pontiffs and numerous countries.

John
Exactly it was not addressed to the entire Church but to the Church in Poland, therefore is not infallible, also it is a pastoral encyclical not a dogmatic one

Pax

Brian
 
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