Pope's astronomer dismisses ID and says Church was "spectacularly wrong" in its treatment of Galileo

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I should return to the Anti-ID arguments that I commented on previously to explain this notion that ID = DI.

But if we have it on record that CSI and FCSI are concepts invented by the DI, then whatever work is done to support those concepts is credited to the DI as the originator.

As for uses of Complex Functional Information, this paper (not a publication of DI and by non-DI scientists) points out that measuring this kind of information is valuable in building artifical life programs (Avida) among other things.

Functional information and the emergence of biocomplexity
Robert M. Hazen,† Patrick L. Griffin, James M. Carothers,‡ and Jack W. Szostak§, 2007

Your ID source (Kirk Durston?) is equivocating here. The Discovery Institute is talking about CSI and FCSI, note the ‘S’ for ‘Specified’ in all of those. The Hazen paper talks about FI, Functional Information and CFI, Complex Functional Information. No ‘S’ in there at all. One of the major problems with CSI and FCSI is in deciding what is, and what is not, a valid specification. Hazen’s work does not have this problem.

I have already pointed out the problems with the M(Ex) term in Hazen’s formula.

rossum​
 
Looks like Buffalo suddenly found something more urgent to do! He’s been awful quiet since having his bluff called.
Well, we’ll see. People get busy, etc. It is odd, though, that he complained about rossum (who seems plenty capable of deconstructing CSI/FSCI on his own if he wanted) backing out, and then went dark when I responded to his challenge.

Reading back I don’t really see rossum backing out of anything, btw.

-TS
 
Well, we’ll see. People get busy, etc. It is odd, though, that he complained about rossum (who seems plenty capable of deconstructing CSI/FSCI on his own if he wanted) backing out, and then went dark when I responded to his challenge. Reading back I don’t really see rossum backing out of anything, btw.
-TS
Touchstone, rossum has a lot of energy. This argument could go on forever, with ID never producing a shred of scientific discovery, while biologists quietly work on. I imagine if CAF is around fifty years from now there will still be evolution deniers.
 
Your ID source (Kirk Durston?) is equivocating here. The Discovery Institute is talking about CSI and FCSI, note the ‘S’ for ‘Specified’ in all of those. The Hazen paper talks about FI, Functional Information and CFI, Complex Functional Information. No ‘S’ in there at all. One of the major problems with CSI and FCSI is in deciding what is, and what is not, a valid specification. Hazen’s work does not have this problem.

I have already pointed out the problems with the M(Ex) term in Hazen’s formula.
It’s a statistical measure looking at probability. One does not have to evaluate every string of data to draw a statistical estimate. It’s a matter of testing data samples and drawing inferences.

I have found that if I have at least 500 aligned sequences, the sample size is starting to get large enough to adequately estimate M(Ex), although I prefer to work with at least 1,000 sequences for any protein family.

Evolutionary theory uses the same approach. One does not have to investigate every living organism to draw conclusions from a statistical sample.
 
Touchstone, rossum has a lot of energy. This argument could go on forever, with ID never producing a shred of scientific discovery, while biologists quietly work on. I imagine if CAF is around fifty years from now there will still be evolution deniers.
I agree. I couldn’t be bothered with buffalo’s survey (“Rank the subject on ‘purpose’ from 1 to 10…” blink) either. If buffalo wants to take up the math and the concepts in a serious way, it would go well for his claims and ideas. Been round and round on that.

I’m always surprised that the DI, like everyone else on the ID front, can’t be bothered to put some research where their mouths are. If I’m an honest, educated, scientifically trained ID advocate, I thank the God I believe in to be in such a lucky position. For here is the opportunity of a lifetime, like that guy Eisman on Wall Street who nearly alone figured out that the whole of Wall Street was deluding itself on mortgage securities, and that he could make billions shorting the crazed and irrational longs. If the IDist scientist is right, the scientific world is his oyster. All he has to do is some real research!

And not even that much, research. The kinds of funding DI could easily come up with just by diverting some of their plentify culture-war dollars would power a talented team toward real tests, and real breakthroughs, if ID was really a scientific insight, a hypothesis that had real, practical, scientific merit. What a wonder to be a scientist in such a position, with the whole rest of mainstream science blinded like the Catholic Church to your Galileo. *Eppure si muove! *You could put substance behind the hypotheses and humiliate the established orthodoxy, to the glory of God and science.

And yet, nothin’. They got nothing. Do nothing. They comb through mainstream articles for quotes to mine, and abstracts to spin as “ID-friendly”. The huff and puff on an internet blog about CSI and FSCI and dFSCI, and yet can’t point to any application of these crucial ideas in real research.

The reason is all too clear. This is apologetics wearing a lab coat. Culture war putting on airs of scientific credibility and gravitas by adopting “sciency buzzwords” that fool the lay believer and make their eyes spin around, thrilled to have such sciency scientists talking in such sciency ways about what everybody knows if they just read Romans.

I don’t agree with guys like Kenneth Miller on the existence of God. But at least I can respect Miller, and folks who are believers but not “charlatans of science” for proceeding on good faith in furthering science. It’s a damning observation that DI does nothing to actually back its own ideas and claims in science, or to put them to the test. There is no heart for science there, only culture war, spin, apologetcs. If they had the courage of their convictions on the “science” the DI advocates, they’d be doing things much differently than they do.

-TS
 
… science can and does measure design as a routine part of its investigations
Design exists, and science can and does measure it.

The gap in our scientific knowledge at this point is having more precise metrics by which to measure design. This has nothing to do, and yet everything to do, with ID, depending on how you want to look at it.

The question of the Edge of Evolution or the limits of dFSCI that can be produced by a stochastic process have nothing to do with the nature of the Designer. Those are scientific questions which any scientist can pursue.
Any programmer can tell you that randomness is the most value resource there is for creativity. Unchannelled, unharnessed noise is just noise, but if you want a system to be creative on its own, you need a) laws or rules, b) random variation and c) a cumulative filter that tends to select and cull outputs toward some goal (fixed or dynamic).
Sure, and it’s very good to know what kind of digital, specified, functional, complex information (sophisticated, functioning code) you can produce with a random source. You can gain some creative insights from randomness, but you need a designer to specify the final result.
It’s a conceptual error, then to pit functional specified information against randomness; randomness is an effective and predictable way to produce creative designs, and CSI as output.
Information theory studies different kinds of information. We can observe the difference between seemingly random strings and specified strings. We already mentioned encryption hacking programs. So, we know that CSI can be produced by intelligence. The evolutionary proposal is that it can be (and is always) produced by a function of natural law and chance alone.

Richard Dawkins’ Weasel program was an attempt to show that natural selection could produce CSI.

He proved to be successful in showing that random letters can match a target string in a very short period of time.

But what did his exercise say about the validity of the Darwinian concept? That a non-scientist like myself should find it convincing and/or his own claims worthy of trust?
 
Just a quick note - it is true I have been extremely busy, but don’t you worry - “'I will be back” 👍
 
It’s a statistical measure looking at probability. One does not have to evaluate every string of data to draw a statistical estimate. It’s a matter of testing data samples and drawing inferences.
For an accurate statistical measure of how easy it is to hit a target you have to know just how big the target is. Hitting a big target is not very improbable. Hitting a tiny target is highly improbable. Any uncertainty you have in estimating the size of your target will reflect immediately in the uncertainty of your result.
Evolutionary theory uses the same approach. One does not have to investigate every living organism to draw conclusions from a statistical sample.
Agreed, but you do have to put in your error bars. The error bars for common descent are down at the 12th decimal place, which is a smaller error than for measuring gravity, which is at the 8th decimal place. What are the error bars for the DI’s calculations of CSI or FCSI?

There are far more possible proteins than there are species. I have already quoted Yockey’s estimate of 2.3 x 10^93 possible functional Cytochrome-Cs and that is just one protein. I can also cite Keefe and Szostak, (2001) “Functional proteins from a random-sequence library” on the frequency of functional proteins taken from a random selection.

rossum
 
There are far more possible proteins than there are species.
There are more possible proteins than possible organisms also, but the search space for the latter is still much larger than what we can even successfuly sample. We keep in mind that evolutionary analysis applies to unknown species from possibly billions of years in the past.

It may be true that the difficulty of the challenge is a science-stopper. Science is not capable of measuring what we observe, or that is, measuring the distinctions between what can easily be observed.

Complex, specified, functional information exists. I just produced some.

So, science is incapable of precisely measuring what can be empirically observed.
 
This is apologetics wearing a lab coat. Culture war putting on airs of scientific credibility and gravitas by adopting “sciency buzzwords” that fool the lay believer and make their eyes spin around, thrilled to have such sciency scientists talking in such sciency ways about what everybody knows if they just read Romans.
“Apologetics wearing a lab coat” – I like that!
I don’t agree with guys like Kenneth Miller on the existence of God.
TS, what do you mean by this?
 
TS, what do you mean by this?
I’m an atheist. I don’t think God exists, or that there’s a reasonable basis for believing such. But having heard Miller speak, he’s apparently not just a “cultural Catholic” but a devout, committed one. So we part ways on that. But he is a good scientist, and loves the enterprise of acquiring natural knowledge.

I was a bit surprised, given the disparagement of Miller that I read so often. Perhaps Miller feels compelled to be “be devout” more than he really is, to maintain his “bona fides” as a Catholic? I don’t know, can’t say. But when I heard him speak for a few minutes about his faith after a talk on evolution and ID, he was convincing to me as devout Catholic. It’s hard to get the feel from his book the way one does when hearing him speak.

-TS
 
I’m an atheist. I don’t think God exists, or that there’s a reasonable basis for believing such. But having heard Miller speak, he’s apparently not just a “cultural Catholic” but a devout, committed one. So we part ways on that. But he is a good scientist, and loves the enterprise of acquiring natural knowledge.

I was a bit surprised, given the disparagement of Miller that I read so often. Perhaps Miller feels compelled to be “be devout” more than he really is, to maintain his “bona fides” as a Catholic? I don’t know, can’t say. But when I heard him speak for a few minutes about his faith after a talk on evolution and ID, he was convincing to me as devout Catholic. It’s hard to get the feel from his book the way one does when hearing him speak.

-TS
Thanks for clarifying, TS. “Devout” is a difficult word, and may mean different things to different people. Not all of us who are Catholic would consider ourselves “devout” in the same sense. Ken and I have discussed our Catholicism and we do have our differences, but I would never call his belief into doubt.

StAnastasia
 
As StA points out these are calculations done outside the DI.

10 to the 77th power.

PROCEEDINGS OF THE BIOLOGICAL SOCIETY OF WASHINGTON
117(2):213-239. 2004


Cassette mutagenesis experiments performed during the early 1990s suggest that the probability of attaining (at random) the correct sequencing for a short protein 100 amino acids long is about 1 in 1065 (Reidhaar-Olson & Sauer 1990, Behe 1992:65-69). This result agreed closely with earlier calculations that Yockey (1978) had performed based upon the known sequence variability of cytochrome c in different species and other theoretical considerations. More recent mutagenesis research has provided additional support for the conclusion that functional proteins are exceedingly rare among possible amino acid sequences (Axe 2000, 2004). Axe (2004) has performed site directed mutagenesis experiments on a 150-residue protein-folding domain within a B-lactamase enzyme. His experimental method improves upon earlier mutagenesis techniques and corrects for several sources of possible estimation error inherent in them. On the basis of these experiments, Axe has estimated the ratio of (a) proteins of typical size (150 residues) that perform a specified function via any folded structure to (b) the whole set of possible amino acids sequences of that size. Based on his experiments, Axe has estimated his ratio to be 1 to 1077. Thus, the probability of finding a functional protein among the possible amino acid sequences corresponding to a 150-residue protein is similarly 1 in 1077.
Did you read the entire article? It mentions CSI no less than 13 times.

Onto 10 to the 77 - plus add in the CSI and the odds go higher. Considering there are 10 to the 80 atoms in the universe it doesn’t bode well.

…As it happens, Muller and Newman are not alone in this judgment. In the last decade or so a host of scientific essays and books have questioned the efficacy of selection and mutation as a mechanism for generating morphological novelty, as even a brief literature survey will establish. Thomson (1992:107) expressed doubt that large-scale morphological changes could accumulate via minor phenotypic changes at the population genetic level. Miklos (1993:29) argued that neo-Darwinism fails to provide a mechanism that can produce large-scale innovations in form and complexity. Gilbert et al. (1996) attempted to develop a new theory of evolutionary mechanisms to supplement classical neo-Darwinism, which, they argued, could not adequately explain macroevolution. As they put it in a memorable summary of the situation: “starting in the 1970s, many biologists began questioning its (neo-Darwinism’s) adequacy in explaining evolution. Genetics might be adequate for explaining microevolution, but microevolutionary changes in gene frequency were not seen as able to turn a reptile into a mammal or to convert a fish into an amphibian. Microevolution looks at adaptations that concern the survival of the fittest, not the arrival of the fittest. As Goodwin (1995) points out, ‘the origin of species–Darwin’s problem–remains unsolved’“ (p. 361). Though Gilbert et al. (1996) attempted to solve the problem of the origin of form by proposing a greater role for developmental genetics within an otherwise neo-Darwinian framework,1 numerous recent authors have continued to raise questions about the adequacy of that framework itself or about the problem of the origination of form generally (Webster & Goodwin 1996; Shubin & Marshall 2000; Erwin 2000; Conway Morris 2000, 2003b; Carroll 2000; Wagner 2001; Becker & Lonnig 2001; Stadler et al. 2001; Lonnig & Saedler 2002; Wagner & Stadler 2003; Valentine 2004:189-194).

…Dawkins (1986:139) has noted that scientific theories can rely on only so much “luck” before they cease to be credible. The neutral theory of evolution, which, by its own logic, prevents natural selection from playing a role in generating genetic information until after the fact, relies on entirely too much luck.

…Yet the neutral theory requires novel genes and proteins to arise–essentially–by random mutation alone. Adaptive advantage accrues after the generation of new functional genes and proteins. Thus, natural selection cannot play a role until new information-bearing molecules have independently arisen. Thus neutral theorists envisioned the need to scale the steep face of a Dawkins-style precipice of which there is no gradually sloping backside–a situation that, by Dawkins’ own logic, is probabilistically untenable.

…This problem has led to what McDonald (1983) has called “a great Darwinian paradox” (p. 93). McDonald notes that genes that are observed to vary within natural populations do not lead to major adaptive changes, while genes that could cause major changes–the very stuff of macroevolution–apparently do not vary. In other words, mutations of the kind that macroevolution doesn’t need (namely, viable genetic mutations in DNA expressed late in development) do occur, but those that it does need (namely, beneficial body plan mutations expressed early in development) apparently don’t occur.6 According to Darwin (1859:108) natural selection cannot act until favorable variations arise in a population. Yet there is no evidence from developmental genetics that the kind of variations required by neo-Darwinism–namely, favorable body plan mutations–ever occur.

.
 
…These considerations pose another challenge to the sufficiency of the neo-Darwinian mechanism. Neo-Darwinism seeks to explain the origin of new information, form, and structure as a result of selection acting on randomly arising variation at a very low level within the biological hierarchy, namely, within the genetic text. Yet major morphological innovations depend on a specificity of arrangement at a much higher level of the organizational hierarchy, a level that DNA alone does not determine. Yet if DNA is not wholly responsible for body plan morphogenesis, then DNA sequences can mutate indefinitely, without regard to realistic probabilistic limits, and still not produce a new body plan. ** Thus, the mechanism of natural selection acting on random mutations in DNA cannot in principle generate novel body plans, including those that first arose in the Cambrian explosion.

…**Convergence and Teleological Evolution

More recently, Conway Morris (2000, 2003c) has suggested another possible explanation based on the tendency for evolution to converge on the same structural forms during the history of life. Conway Morris cites numerous examples of organisms that possess very similar forms and structures, even though such structures are often built from different material substrates and arise (in ontogeny) by the expression of very different genes. Given the extreme improbability of the same structures arising by random mutation and selection in disparate phylogenies, Conway Morris argues that the pervasiveness of convergent structures suggests that evolution may be in some way “channeled” toward similar functional and/or structural endpoints. Such an end-directed understanding of evolution, he admits, raises the controversial prospect of a teleological or purposive element in the history of life. For this reason, he argues that the phenomenon of convergence has received less attention than it might have otherwise. Nevertheless, he argues that just as physicists have reopened the question of design in their discussions of anthropic fine-tuning, the ubiquity of convergent structures in the history of life has led some biologists (Denton 1998) to consider extending teleological thinking to biology. And, indeed, Conway Morris himself intimates that the evolutionary process might be “underpinned by a purpose” (2000:8, 2003b:511). **IDvolution anyone???

**…There is a third reason to consider purpose or design as an explanation for the origin of biological form and information: purposive agents have just those necessary powers that natural selection lacks as a condition of its causal adequacy. At several points in the previous analysis, we saw that natural selection lacked the ability to generate novel information precisely because it can only act after new functional CSI has arisen. Natural selection can favor new proteins, and genes, but only after they perform some function. The job of generating new functional genes, proteins and systems of proteins therefore falls entirely to random mutations. Yet without functional criteria to guide a search through the space of possible sequences, random variation is probabilistically doomed. What is needed is not just a source of variation (i.e., the freedom to search a space of possibilities) or a mode of selection that can operate after the fact of a successful search, but instead a means of selection that (a) operates during a search–before success–and that (b) is guided by information about, or knowledge of, a functional target.

…What natural selection lacks, intelligent selection–purposive or goal-directed design–provides.
 
Blah blah blah **IDvolution anyone??? **blah blah blah
You have yet to explain what IDvolution is. It appears to be your invention, but your sig line description is wholly inadequate.

Please define IDvolution for us. Or link to a reference that does so.
 
…Dawkins (1986:139) has noted that scientific theories can rely on only so much “luck” before they cease to be credible. The neutral theory of evolution, which, by its own logic, prevents natural selection from playing a role in generating genetic information until after the fact, relies on entirely too much luck.
Precisely! It is unreasonable to derive the power of reasoning and the capacity for love from a series of accidents. It amounts to worshipping the blind Goddess! 🙂
 
Blah blah blah **IDvolution anyone??? **blah blah blah
Incidentally, you do realise that the thin verneer of credibility you’ve assumed from the fact that your quoted article was published in the Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, is completely washed away by the subsequent statement issued by the Society, denouncing its scientific integrity? ReggieM cited the proceedings earlier in this thread, and I pointed out the problem in Post 299.

You can see the statement here, or to save you the trouble:
The paper by Stephen C. Meyer,“The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories,” in vol. 117, no. 2, pp. 213-239 of the Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, was published at the discretion of the former editor, Richard v. Sternberg. Contrary to typical editorial practices, the paper was published without review by any associate editor; Sternberg handled the entire review process. The Council, which includes officers, elected councilors, and past presidents, and the associate editors would have deemed the paper inappropriate for the pages of the Proceedings because the subject matter represents such a significant departure from the nearly purely systematic content for which this journal has been known throughout its 122-year history. For the same reason, the journal will not publish a rebuttal to the thesis of the paper, the superiority of intelligent design (ID) over evolution as an explanation of the emergence of Cambrian body-plan diversity. The Council endorses a resolution on ID published by the American Association for the Advancement of Science (), which observes that there is no credible scientific evidence supporting ID as a testable hypothesis to explain the origin of organic diversity. Accordingly, the Meyer paper does not meet the scientific standards of the Proceedings.
So we’re still waiting for something of substance from you, to support your claims. Are you planning to rock up to Touchstone’s thread at any point?
 
Precisely! It is unreasonable to derive the power of reasoning and the capacity for love from a series of accidents. It amounts to worshipping the blind Goddess! 🙂
True, it’s the idolatry that is inherent in materialism.
The capacity to love and to reason came from an accidental, unintelligent process working on unconscious matter.

So, the human person gives his highest form of love possible (worship) to blind matter. Thus we have idolatry which is not much different than worshipping stone figures.

He also finds himself to be ultimately unnecessary, accidental, and without value – and yet he illogically proposes various purposes and meanings based on transient and equally unnecessary values.

This conflict with the universal human experience where we search for ultimate meaning and purpose.
 
Precisely! It is unreasonable to derive the power of reasoning and the capacity for love from a series of accidents. It amounts to worshipping the blind Goddess! 🙂
True, it’s the idolatry that is inherent in materialism.
The capacity to love and to reason came from an accidental, unintelligent process working on unconscious matter.

So, the human person gives his highest form of love possible (worship) to blind matter. Thus we have idolatry which is not much different than worshipping stone figures.

He also finds himself to be ultimately unnecessary, accidental, and without value – and yet he illogically proposes various purposes and meanings based on transient and equally unnecessary values.

This conflict with the universal human experience where we search for ultimate meaning and purpose.
When you guys have finished slapping each other’s backs, perhaps one of you could provide an alternative explanation that has any scientific credibility, and doesn’t merely abstract the question away from the realm of verification?
 
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