Pope's comment ordination of gay people

[Imdaman]

The whole thread is about not allowing gay men to be ordained.
Some have even said gay people have no place in the Church.
Are we on the same thread?

Correct this is what the thread is about. So why do you try to implicate us in hating gays because we agree with the Church.

The Church does not teach the Gays have no place in the church. I am hoping to see a clarification of this persons posts to understand if this is what he actually meant or if he was talking specifically about the priesthood. We should wait to see what he writes. Although his words were quite harsh the meaning can be read a couple different ways.

 

[Imdaman]

CilladeRoma:

disordered

I will bet you dollars to donuts that the Church will eventually try to find some way to change the word used

I hope not. If you try to understand the meaning behind the Disordered comment and what is disordered exactly you will find that the word fits well and is hard to replace withoout loosing meaning of the concept.

 

[Imdaman]

But why do we use sexual orientation as a descriptor to qualify how we treat someone?

Not sure why you are claiming we do this. Even if Sumner has a hatred of Gays as is suggested that is only one person while everyone else seems to be saying we should be welcoming to them.

I think that is people like you (not meant in a derogatory way but as a descriptor) Telling Christians that we need to treat them a certain way because they are Gay. Most people I talk to find that hard to understand because we all sin but it is this sin that is special in someway.

 

[MikeInVA]

Most people I talk to find that hard to understand because we all sin but it is this sin that is special in someway.

Maybe because we don’t have bumper stickers on our cars highlighting our sins?

 

[anon10271182]

And they might get more empathy if they stopped constantly complaining and agitating for the Church to change its teachings. Like the relevant language in the Catechism, for example, which is grounded in natural and Divine law.

 

[anon10271182]

Anyone who watched things play out in the TEC–and in American culture at large–can see exactly what’s happening. The Catholic Church does not teach that homosexual intercourse is just an “alternate, (even virtuous) form of loving expression.” So, it seems that for a vocal minority, Church teachings must change.

Even the sexually active homosexual is welcome at Mass, and many dioceses have support programs for those with SSA. Soon, all may. But–that won’t be enough.
What is the ultimate goal?

 

[Imdaman]

Anyone who watched things play out in the TEC–and in American culture at large–can see exactly what’s happening. The Catholic Church does not teach that homosexual intercourse is just an “alternate, (even virtuous) form of loving expression.” So, it seems that for a vocal minority, Church teachings must change.

Even the sexually active homosexual is welcome at Mass, and many dioceses have support programs for those with SSA. Soon, all may. But–that won’t be enough.
What is the ultimate goal?

I understand that, but for the most part people on these forums (being Catholic) do not subscribe to this agenda. They are mostly trying to help us understand that it is important that act in a more loving way to our SSA brothers and sisters. Try to listen and understand their struggles in life. While trying help them feel more welcome in the Church.

They in turn - I believe - should be trying understand where we are coming from and not be so judgmental of our motives.

 

[margaret42]

Are you Catholic?

 

[anon10271182]

Sarcasm. Too dry, I reckon. Sorry!`(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[CilladeRoma]

that being gay, at least as a priest, makes one far more likely to abuse children.

I think this is nonsense.
Being gay does not make one have a proclivity to abuse children, not having developed a healthy sexuality, regardless if it is hetero or homosexual and the need for power is what cause people to abuse children.

 

[pnewton]

I think this is nonsense.

Well, I gave data, and I do believe that being sexually disordered in one area predisposes one to become sexually disordered in another. This is based on the understanding of sin and is not specific to sexual sin. I see no reason why lust should somehow be less invasive to the soul than greed, pride, lust, envy, etc. Do you have anything except feelings to support your opinion?

 

[Augustinian]

I think this is nonsense.
Being gay does not make one have a proclivity to abuse children,

I don’t think that’s the whole point, the whole problem.

I’ve known a number of homosexuals in my day, and they are neurotic guys who are very immature. Its not just their preference for sodomy. Further, straight men just don’t have any respect for homosexuals. This is a real problem if they are going to serve in a position of authority as a priest.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yes, it’s always “hard” to make all kinds of changes but the Church somehow manages it when guided by God to do so.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’ve known a number of homosexuals in my day, and they are neurotic guys who are very immature.

You have not known every gay person on the planet.

I know huge numbers of heterosexual men and women who are neurotic and immature.

Some days I think they all come to this forum to post, to be honest.

 

[CilladeRoma]

Sexual abuse is not about sex, it is about power.
All the data I have ever read states that being “gay” does not cause or increase one’s proclivity toward other sexual disorder.

 

[Imdaman]

Sexual abuse is not about sex, it is about power.
All the data I have ever read states that being “gay” does not cause or increase one’s proclivity toward other sexual disorder.

Sexual abuse is about sex first and the power gets them off. This load of B.S. was pedalled back in the 90’s but is pure poppy cock. After a while the only way they can get off is by this abuse of power.

Can you please explain why 80% of the abuse was Homosexual in nature. These men with this attraction hid out in the priesthood and ended up taking advantage of the situation.

 

[pnewton]

Sexual abuse is not about sex, it is about power.

I know what psychologist say, but trite sayings are not theology. Plus, I disagree, at least to the absolute nature of that statement. I do not believe that lust is never a part of child sexual abuse. In fact, I find that statement so absurd that I doubt anyone without a PhD or a stake in it could believe it.

Again, I gave pretty good data. In other sciences, data matters. Even to the extent that power could be a motivation, it doesn’t change the fact that the John Jay report showed a correlation between homosexuality and child sexual abuse in priests.

The bottom line is being gay does not equal being a child molester.

Now this is totally true. I think it would be false to say even most are. But the other bottom line, child sexual abuse has drastically decreased.

 

[CilladeRoma]

These men with this attraction hid out in the priesthood and ended up taking advantage of the situation.

This is why. Many men, especially in the US, between the 1930’s to 1970’s, who were gay, entered Seminary as a way to “hide”. Sadly, the “cookie-cutter” nature of seminary education then, and the lack of psycho/sexual knowledge allowed for many men who should not have bee, to be ordained.

I also think that since only boys were allowed as altar servers, there was more opportunity for abuse.

The bottom line is being gay does not equal being a child molester.

 

[Imdaman]

Imdaman:

These men with this attraction hid out in the priesthood and ended up taking advantage of the situation.

This is why. Many men, especially in the US, between the 1930’s to 1970’s, who were gay, entered Seminary as a way to “hide”. Sadly, the “cookie-cutter” nature of seminary education then, and the lack of psycho/sexual knowledge allowed for many men who should not have bee, to be ordained.

I also think that since only boys were allowed as altar servers, there was more opportunity for abuse.

The bottom line is being gay does not equal being a child molester.

No one said it did! If you read Pnewton post he is explaining something more nuanced with regard to sin and how it effects the physche and soul. They don’t call them the seven deadly sins for nothing!

 

[CilladeRoma]

This quote is from an article from Psychology today and their summary of the John Jay report-

The report concludes that the vast majority of clergy sex offenders are not pedophiles at all but were situational generalists violating whoever they had access to. Pedophiles, by definition, seek sexual gratification from pre-pubescent children of one gender and target this age and gender group (especially while under stress). Clergy sexual offenders in the Church were more likely to be targeting whoever was around them (and they had unsupervised access to) regardless of age and gender.

The researchers conclude that there is no causative relationship between either celibacy or homosexuality and the sexual victimization of children in the Church. Therefore, being celibate or being gay did not increase the risk of violating children. So, blaming the clergy abuse crisis in the Catholic Church on gay men or celibacy is unfounded.

Here is a link to the story.

Here is the John Jay report