J
- Status
A
Agripa
Guest
Old Apripa is just not understanding this sainthood stuff. I recall JP II being a very charismatic and popular ruler. I was a young kid when I went to see him in Grant Park, Chicago - I even got to see him jump out of his helicopter that day.
But how do we go from popular leader to a saint? Is sainthood just a way the Church celebrates the popular or the heroic? I mean do people really beleive all the demi god like attributes that get attached to sainthood? An older, devout family member angrily reminded me that JPII had performed miracles but admonished his underlings to keep quiet. I don’t believe that one at all!
But Agripa bears in mind that even in Ancient Rome, there was a moment when Agustus was declared a god, but a slave whispered in his ear all day long that he was only human! I think for the masses, the saint hood think works, but I cant imagine that well educated Catholics think he was really a saint!
But how do we go from popular leader to a saint? Is sainthood just a way the Church celebrates the popular or the heroic? I mean do people really beleive all the demi god like attributes that get attached to sainthood? An older, devout family member angrily reminded me that JPII had performed miracles but admonished his underlings to keep quiet. I don’t believe that one at all!
But Agripa bears in mind that even in Ancient Rome, there was a moment when Agustus was declared a god, but a slave whispered in his ear all day long that he was only human! I think for the masses, the saint hood think works, but I cant imagine that well educated Catholics think he was really a saint!
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
I is a purty edumacated Catlick and I think Pop john Pawl the second 'un is one of them there saint thingys.but I cant imagine that well educated Catholics think he was really a saint!
J
JReducation
Guest
You have millions of very well educated Catholics, including this one, who think he is a saint. There are non Catholics who agree.Old Apripa is just not understanding this sainthood stuff. I recall JP II being a very charismatic and popular ruler. I was a young kid when I went to see him in Grant Park, Chicago - I even got to see him jump out of his helicopter that day.
But how do we go from popular leader to a saint? Is sainthood just a way the Church celebrates the popular or the heroic? I mean do people really beleive all the demi god like attributes that get attached to sainthood? An older, devout family member angrily reminded me that JPII had performed miracles but admonished his underlings to keep quiet. I don’t believe that one at all!
But Agripa bears in mind that even in Ancient Rome, there was a moment when Agustus was declared a god, but a slave whispered in his ear all day long that he was only human! I think for the masses, the saint hood think works, but I cant imagine that well educated Catholics think he was really a saint!
Maybe you need to recall the definition of a saint. A saint is a man or woman whose life is virtuous beyond that of most people. He is a man whose love of God shows through in everything he does, who struggles every day to overcome his faults, to become stronger in virtue and to get closer to the perfection of charity. He does the same things that other people of faith do, but he does it more frequently and with greater intensity. Thats’ why we say, heroic virtue. In other words, a saint does not settle for the minimum requirements of fidelity and nobility. He strives for the highest possible expression of fidelity to God and charity toward others.
Have a Blessed Christmas!
Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:
P
pnewton
Guest
Saints are examples to us all of heroic virtue. They have no demigod like power. We believe what they do have is a face to face presence with God. It is only through the one God that they can know anything that happens on Earth and only through God can they have anything. In fact, it is the very presence of God that allows them greater humility and an emptying of themselves than we can know here.
Consider that we also believe that all who die in God’s Grace will be in the same situation some day. We also accept there are many others that are now in that state that the Church does not call Saint. The Saints are only the ones who are recognized as being especially heroic as an example to the whole Church.
A
Agripa
Guest
Well then has the definition of “saint” changed over the past 30 years? When I went through Catholic school, saints performed miracles and held a special place in the place called heaven a place more special than the place of those regualrly allowed in heaven.
To me that is certainly akin to demi god-like stature - much like the old Roman demi gods from where I think the notion of saints is drawn.
Or has demi god
L
LindaSK
Guest
Saints in and of themselves do not perform miracles as I understand it. God works miracles through them which is why they are not ‘demi-gods’. I think if we could speak with any of the Saints, they would also give the credit to God, and would demonstrate great humility as having been instruments of God. I am more familiar with Pope John Paul II. I always felt he was an outstanding example of humility and, certainly, heroic virtue.
A
Agripa
Guest
I certainly agree that JPII was a great leader of his faith and apparently a very good person. Perhaps I was mis-educated as to saints, but traditionally saints are clearly attributed with supernatural powers, they are elevated above mere mortals, are they not? And if so, I simply wonder why JPII is elevated to that status. Was he not a man?
R
redrosetea
Guest
No saints have no supernatural powers…Only God has them…They are our friends in high places…The book of Revelation speaks of the prayers on the saints rising like incense before the throne of God…They pray to God for us…just like someone might ask a friend to pray for themI certainly agree that JPII was a great leader of his faith and apparently a very good person. Perhaps I was mis-educated as to saints, but traditionally saints are clearly attributed with supernatural powers, they are elevated above mere mortals, are they not? And if so, I simply wonder why JPII is elevated to that status. Was he not a man?
The difference is the Saints are sinless, and with God, and their prayers are powerful…Only God performs miracles…he might use a Saint to make His will manifest, but the miracle is God alones
A
Agripa
Guest
So JPII was sinnless? How is that?? Are not all men sinners?
J
JReducation
Guest
Some saints never work miracles. Most of them don’t. Saints are people who have an intense love of God and man. They are faithful to the Lord and the Church. They fulfill their commitment in life with great love and fidelity. They are believers against the odds, even when the world does not believe. They are humble in that they recognize that God is God, not them. They live very normall lives in a very extraordinary way.I certainly agree that JPII was a great leader of his faith and apparently a very good person. Perhaps I was mis-educated as to saints, but traditionally saints are clearly attributed with supernatural powers, they are elevated above mere mortals, are they not? And if so, I simply wonder why JPII is elevated to that status. Was he not a man?
After their death, many miracles occur through their intercession. But it is God who works the miracle. Even Mary’s miracles, are not her own. They are her son’s, through her intercession. There is only one God and one one miracle worker.
Sanctity has nothing to do with miracles and everything to do with the perfection of charity. That is what makes one a saint, to achieve perfect charity through heroic effort and sacrifice to do so.
I hope this helps you.
Have a Blessed Christmas,
Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:
R
redrosetea
Guest
I didn’t say he was sinless on earth, but whatever sins he might have committed were absolved in confession…There is no sin in heaven …It is not possible
He might have spent some time in purgatory We don’t know…A saint is without sin in heaven…It doesn’t mean they didn’t sin while on earth, but if they did they repented for it…
He might have spent some time in purgatory We don’t know…A saint is without sin in heaven…It doesn’t mean they didn’t sin while on earth, but if they did they repented for it…
A
Agripa
Guest
OK, so now he is not sinnless “on earth” but is sinless in heaven.
Now, let me further ask then if some people, let us say they are Roman Catholics who truly beleive, act and follow all the precepts of the faith as set down by Jesus and the Church, who lead good lives, etc, and who seek and were given proper absolution at death for any and all sins they may have committed, and who partook in all the proper sacrements as provided through the church, and then they die as all living men die, do they also not go to heaven, where, as you say, there is no sin? And having so died and gone to heaven, are they the same as saints? Are they saints like those who are declared saints by men on earth who happen to be bishops, cardinals and Popes?
R
redrosetea
Guest
Of course there are and yes anyone that dies in a state of grace goes to heaven, but maybe not right away…if there are still something they didn’t resolve in life, purgatory cleanses them…but they cant go to heaven unless they die in a state of grace
I just want to add a canonized saint is just a bit different…They have miracles attributed
to them other saints don’t…It doesn’t mean they aren’t a saint just not a canonized one
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
We had a family dinner last night and took the opportunity to celebrate the good news about the Ven. Pope John Paul II with a cake in his honor!
Old man, old man, pray for us in the house of the Father!
Old man, old man, pray for us in the house of the Father!
L
Lief_Erikson
Guest
These people are sinless saints as well, just like the canonized saints. However, usually the canonized saints followed God in a more exceptionally devout way than the vast majority of these other good Christians did. Therefore they will probably have a higher place in Heaven, as is only just, considering their lives of greater service and love.
Mary is the Christian with the highest place in Heaven under God, and she was the most devout, loving and perfect person of all, aside from Jesus. This “hierarchy” is not about jockying for rank or position, as hierarchy on Earth is. It is about humility, servanthood and love. Deeper unity with God naturally conveys greater authority, for God is the King of Kings and those that act in His Name and live according to His Word convey Christ, in all His power and being, to the world.
A
Agripa
Guest
What on earth is the distinction?? I thought a saint was a saint was a saint?
A
Agripa
Guest
So, there is an intricate hierarchy in heaven? some souls are “better” than others? They get a bigger hevenly mansion?? Like in the court of some ancient king? What about the message of the prodigal son?
R
redrosetea
Guest
A canonized saint is recognized as someone who really lived a exemplary life of devotion to God…kind of like getting a medal of honor
All saints lived a holy life…but some just shine a bit brighter than the rest
All saints lived a holy life…but some just shine a bit brighter than the rest
L
Lief_Erikson
Guest
There are three formal definitions of saint. So depending on the circumstances, we use the term in different ways. The first definition of a saint is somebody in Heaven. Everyone in Heaven is a saint, perfectly sinless and glorious. The second definition is a faithful Christian on Earth. While these are not sinless yet, they are described as “saints,” for they are God’s people. The third definition of sainthood is canonized saints, saints who are usually higher in glory before God than the rest of us will be, because they loved God so passionately and were so perfect in Him here on Earth.
We use all three definitions at various times in conversation and you can distinguish which we mean from the context. The commonest definition for “saint” that Catholics use in regular conversation is #3, the canonized saints. All these definitions are valid, though, and proper (though different) expressions of sainthood.
- Status