Pope's stance on gays 'like Hitler'

[bones_IV]

fix:

Why do you place “sensitivity” at odds with truth? It is both.

 

[Libero]

fix:

Why do you place “sensitivity” at odds with truth? It is both.

Truth is never apparent unless enough sensitivity is there.

God is truth, God is love, God is sensitive - we cannot understand God’s truth unless we use it alongside his sensitivity. In choosing to place sensitivity and love at a place of lower importance than others, you are actually comprimising this truth.

 

[bones_IV]

Libero:

Yes but you see the problem is that no body actually cares about this bit of the catechism. The church has written it, and it has proven fantastic for Catholics to use in order to condemn homosexuality - but there is a huge double standard.

So often I see the term “objectively disordered” cropping up and “good” Catholics do their very best to promote and defend this message, but then I see these same Catholics skipping right over the entire bit of 2358.

I also think the church itself does this - how very rarely I actually see “compassion” and “sensitivity” in church documents - in fact it is quite the opposite… I recall before the ban on homosexuals was made, Bishop Clarke made an article to gays in ministry, where he actually practised this “sensitivity” and “compassion” - and he recieved a real grilling for that on these forums…

Now whilst I expect an onsluaght of replies telling me how wrong I am - I ask others before they do that to please look at bishops comments - such as Cardinal O’Connor or Cardinal Arinze, and see if they truly are sensitive (not just a warped idea of this)…

To those who tell me they are, well, I feel a little bit concerned, as one good thing about living in Britain, means that whilst I get to see a very weak CBC - you also get to see real sensitivity and compassion from our bishops.

:yawn: The fact of the matter is that Arinze and O’ Conner still condemn the homosexual lifestyle. Arinze and did this at Georgetown and he got blasted for it. The documents condemn the sin not the sinner, there’s a difference. Could you please explain how the Church’s document’s are quite the opposite of compassion and sensitivity?

 

[frommi]

bones_IV:

That’s all sophistic reasoning.

Your suggesting I don’t know what I’m talking about? Or trying to appear that I know what I’m talking about?

I’m being honest on the imagery issue…I simply think its dangerous to utilize comparisons to the Jewish Holocaust when trying to make any comparisons…

B16 is not a Hitler…and abortion is not holocaustal…

They have different philosophical underpinings…

I’m not trying to deny that abortion is a bad thing, it’s a simple disagreement over language. Sort of like my problem with the partial pro-lifers in the country who are only pro-life in the case of abortion…but we’ve been over that.

 

[bones_IV]

frommi:

Your suggesting I don’t know what I’m talking about? Or trying to appear that I know what I’m talking about?

I’m being honest on the imagery issue…I simply think its dangerous to utilize comparisons to the Jewish Holocaust when trying to make any comparisons…

B16 is not a Hitler…and abortion is not holocaustal…

They have different philosophical underpinings…

I’m not trying to deny that abortion is a bad thing, it’s a simple disagreement over language. Sort of like my problem with the partial pro-lifers in the country who are only pro-life in the case of abortion…but we’ve been over that.

Funny cause the John Paul II compared it to the Holocaust. Furthermore, to say that “it’s dangerous to compare abortion to the holocaust” is the refusal to recognize abortion as a violation of human rights. It seems to me that your just simply in denial.

 

[frommi]

fix:

Why do you place “sensitivity” at odds with truth? It is both.

I think what Libero is simply saying is that you can get at truth with people if you are sensitive towards where they are ‘at’ when you approach them.

If you are hoping to change hearts and minds, putting people immediately on the defensive by calling them ‘disordered’ may not be the way to do it. In fact, it probably has the opposite effect.

Whether you like it or not, many people’s day to day experience with homosexual persons is not one of dealing with a ‘disordered’ person.

That is why it becomes difficult for the message of the church to gain traction with a lot of people.

Most people don’t have the experience of dealing with two men in wedding dresses galavanting down to city hall. Most people simply have a gay or lesbian co-worker, or neighbor. It doesn’t seem as blunt or as ‘harmful’

I certainly don’t have a problem with the church being hard and fast with its teachings…but if the teachings dont transform people, we might as well just spit in the wind…its pointless.

 

[frommi]

bones_IV:

Funny cause the John Paul II compared it to the Holocaust. Furthermore, to say that “it’s dangerous to compare abortion to the holocaust” is the refusal to recognize abortion as a violation of human rights. It seems to me that your just simply in denial.

The Holocaust was a calculated attempt to kill all the Jews in the world, and it very nearly succeeded.

Abortion isn’t going to kill all the unborn babies in the world…its not a calculated attempt to wipe out a race or a religion.

Its simply different…and I just feel it demeans my Jewish friends.

Thats all…its not denial.

 

[Libero]

frommi:

I think what Libero is simply saying is that you can get at truth with people if you are sensitive towards where they are ‘at’ when you approach them.

If you are hoping to change hearts and minds, putting people immediately on the defensive by calling them ‘disordered’ may not be the way to do it. In fact, it probably has the opposite effect.

Exactly!!!

bones_IV:

The fact of the matter is that Arinze and O’ Conner still condemn the homosexual lifestyle. Arinze and did this at Georgetown and he got blasted for it. The documents condemn the sin not the sinner, there’s a difference. Could you please explain how the Church’s document’s are quite the opposite of compassion and sensitivity?

What Arinze did was use a university graduation ceremony to declare that gays “mock” society - how is that sensitive, let alone relevant (you are supposed to be celebrating the fact a group of students have gained their degrees, not making comments about homosexuality) - Think of how a gay student in the audiance at that ceremony must have felt, the Cardinal was unecessarially harsh - it didn’t achieve anything, in fact he just issued a generalisation and a stereotype - that is not truth. Far from encouraging a student who is struggling with their orientation to follow church teaching, comments like this one actually just make people more determined that they cannot find an equal place in our church…

 

[bones_IV]

frommi:

The Holocaust was a calculated attempt to kill all the Jews in the world, and it very nearly succeeded.

Abortion isn’t going to kill all the unborn babies in the world…its not a calculated attempt to wipe out a race or a religion.

Its simply different…and I just feel it demeans my Jewish friends.

Thats all…its not denial.

Actually that’s where you’re wrong. Abortion does wipe out nations and whole nations have actually been annilahated do to abortions. It demeans your Jewish friends? That’s laughable. What John Paul II stated in that abortion is comparable to the holocaust is infallible dogma. That is to say that abortion is a worse evil than the holocaust. Stop trashing my thread.

 

[bones_IV]

Libero:

Exactly!!!

What Arinze did was use a university graduation ceremony to declare that gays “mock” society - how is that sensitive, let alone relevant (you are supposed to be celebrating the fact a group of students have gained their degrees, not making comments about homosexuality) - Think of how a gay student in the audiance at that ceremony must have felt, the Cardinal was unecessarially harsh - it didn’t achieve anything, in fact he just issued a generalisation and a stereotype - that is not truth. Far from encouraging a student who is struggling with their orientation to follow church teaching, comments like this one actually just make people more determined that they cannot find an equal place in our church…

Arizne was proclaiming the gospel plain and simple. The Cardinal wasn’t unnecessarily harsh, he just told a clear fact. He’s not afraid to tell it like it is. Actually telling the truth in a condemnatory way actually produces quite the opposite of what you said. Once again, condemning homosexuality doesn’t mean that we think gays are somehow inferior. Nor did I say that God was the cause of evil. Sometimes love is not kind.

 

[Digger71]

BlindSheep:

The Pope uses the word “unjust”, not as a loophole, but because this is precisely what he means.

It is undefined, it is non-specific, it is abstract. All three of these features creates a loop-hole where people can claim their specific acts of discrimination are ‘just’, that is homosexuals ‘deserve’ them.

The noteworthy feature of your examples is that they are exactly the opposite. Defined, specific, real-world.

Why does such an obvious point have to be spelt out?

 

[Libero]

bones_IV:

Arizne was proclaiming the gospel plain and simple. The Cardinal wasn’t unnecessarily harsh, he just told a clear fact. He’s not afraid to tell it like it is. Actually telling the truth in a condemnatory way actually produces quite the opposite of what you said. Once again, condemning homosexuality doesn’t mean that we think gays are somehow inferior. Nor did I say that God was the cause of evil. Sometimes love is not kind.

Oh well - we shall just have to agree to disagree

 

[fix]

frommi:

I think what Libero is simply saying is that you can get at truth with people if you are sensitive towards where they are ‘at’ when you approach them.

I agree

If you are hoping to change hearts and minds, putting people immediately on the defensive by calling them ‘disordered’ may not be the way to do it. In fact, it probably has the opposite effect.

The people are not disordered, the inclination is. Just as we each may have a disordered inclination.

Whether you like it or not, many people’s day to day experience with homosexual persons is not one of dealing with a ‘disordered’ person.

Please see above.

That is why it becomes difficult for the message of the church to gain traction with a lot of people.

Yes, but the problem is not the messenger, the problem is we hate to hear the message.

Most people don’t have the experience of dealing with two men in wedding dresses galavanting down to city hall. Most people simply have a gay or lesbian co-worker, or neighbor. It doesn’t seem as blunt or as ‘harmful’

In a way, that is why so many are deceived. They place faulty emotion over what is best for all involved.

I certainly don’t have a problem with the church being hard and fast with its teachings…but if the teachings dont transform people, we might as well just spit in the wind…its pointless.

When Christ walked the earth He lost many followers due to His teachings. He never changed any of them. All too often I hear the argument that the Church is mean or Her words put folks off. No matter how it is said it will be rejected by many. We just keep loving and telling the truth.

 

[Digger71]

Libero:

What Arinze did was use a university graduation ceremony to declare that gays “mock” society - how is that sensitive, let alone relevant

Well, I doubt very much that Arinze meant “they deploy their wit, intelligence and humour to highlight the failings, inconsistancies, double-standards and stupidity of many of the rules we hold dear.”

I think he meant “They are a mockery of what real society is like”.

But the former is a reaction to the social exclusion, stereotypes and lack of discerment from os straights. The latter is just a tired old stereotype that helps construct the former.

 

[wabrams]

frommi:

The Holocaust was a calculated attempt to kill all the Jews in the world, and it very nearly succeeded.

Abortion isn’t going to kill all the unborn babies in the world…its not a calculated attempt to wipe out a race or a religion.

Its simply different…and I just feel it demeans my Jewish friends.

Thats all…its not denial.

Hate to make it a numbers game, but:

Holocaust: estimated 5,596,049 killed Jews (doesn’t include the others they tried to wipe off the face of the earth) or roughly

Abortion: estimated 42,900,000 since Roe v. Wade in the United States ALONE. The Nazi killed Jews in a couple fo different countries.

 

[bones_IV]

Digger71:

It is undefined, it is non-specific, it is abstract. All three of these features creates a loop-hole where people can claim their specific acts of discrimination are ‘just’, that is homosexuals ‘deserve’ them.

The noteworthy feature of your examples is that they are exactly the opposite. Defined, specific, real-world.

Why does such an obvious point have to be spelt out?

And why do you have to get into a semantics battle?

 

[frommi]

bones_IV:

Actually that’s where you’re wrong. Abortion does wipe out nations and whole nations have actually been annilahated do to abortions. It demeans your Jewish friends? That’s laughable. What John Paul II stated in that abortion is comparable to the holocaust is infallible dogma. That is to say that abortion is a worse evil than the holocaust. Stop trashing my thread.

It was certainly not “infallible dogma”…get over that right now. There is now dogma of holocaustal abortion.

 

[frommi]

bones_IV:

Sometimes love is not kind.

To think, St. Paul had it wrong…all those couples who have used that reading at weddings would be surprised to hear your version.

 

[frommi]

wabrams:

Hate to make it a numbers game, but:

Holocaust: estimated 5,596,049 killed Jews (doesn’t include the others they tried to wipe off the face of the earth) or roughly

Abortion: estimated 42,900,000 since Roe v. Wade in the United States ALONE. The Nazi killed Jews in a couple fo different countries.

It’s not about numbers in my mind. It’s about putting things in the proper context. If you want to call abortion the most evil thing to be thrust on mankind…go ahead…but again, there is a difference between trying to wipe out an entire race in a governmentally controlled and caculated way and the circumstances that lead to abortion.

You can get the point across with such non-applicable language.

 

[wabrams]

frommi:

It’s not about numbers in my mind. It’s about putting things in the proper context. If you want to call abortion the most evil thing to be thrust on mankind…go ahead…but again, there is a difference between trying to wipe out an entire race in a governmentally controlled and caculated way and the circumstances that lead to abortion.

You can get the point across with such non-applicable language.

It is government controlled to a certain degree:
The government made abortion legal, the state governments inspect each center regularly to make sure it’s clean and maintained, doctors and nurses at abortion facilities are licensed by the state and have to renew regularly.

Circumstances for abortion? I’d venture almost all abortions are done because the mother doesn’t want the child; you play you pay, but don’t make the child suffer the consequences for the parents mistakes by killing it.