Porn / Romantic films?

[GraceDK]

And I’ll further agree with you. Indeed, I think there’s a great motion to confuse the sexual with the romantic.

In fact, I think that such writings may be worse than simply pornography, simply because while pornography enters through the eyes and senses, smut goes through the mind. Though I don’t suppose it degrades anyone in particular (Besides the writer and the reader) I think it’s corrupting effect might be more potent that pornography which does so.

To argue against the principle, not the fact (or vice versa), of a point made far above, why are women always depicted as the ones seeking out ‘romance’ and the men sex?

And isn’t it somewhat tragic that the men that aren’t sex crazed freaks are depicted as weak?

Hmmm…virility is the new honour, it seems.

Our Church (or Parish, I suppose) was conducting something of a garage sale to raise funds, so the Parishoners all pitched in, donating clothes and other stuff to be sold.

Well, in then end, a VAST collection of smut was assembled.

oversimplifying the sexes, their natural roles, and their typical flaws is commonly seen on these fora.
I would like to have a very romatic man with whom I can have a great sexlife. Is there anything wrong with that?
I think both love, sex, and romance are great… I would not want a marriage without any of them.
Besides… many men long to be knights… heroes in a fairytale - think of the male fascination with the middle ages eg. - pursuing a lady. Is that a perverted fantasy? Hardly. In fact… I believe its one of the wonderful things about man - and woman… they idealise… they have dreams and yearn for fairytales and it makes this life so much more interesting…

In fact… I think Christianity is cut out for romatics Just think of Jesus… and think of the Song of Songs… etc…

To end this with a sheer hypothesis that I am not saying is a fact, but something I have asked my self: Could it possibly be, that because men find them selves in a corner with the sexuality-issue - feel weak and victimised by this problem that is so predominatly male and even in the lives of Christian men (I speak maily of porn and masturbation) - that they have a hidden desire to find a flaw in women that they can point at… as a sort of defence mechanism?
Just a thought-.

 

[gettingthere]

Could it possibly be, that because men find them selves in a corner with the sexuality-issue - feel weak and victimized by this problem that is so predominantly male and even in the lives of Christian men (I speak mainly of porn and masturbation) - that they have a hidden desire to find a flaw in women that they can point at… as a sort of defense mechanism?
Just a thought-.

I think it’s pretty natural for people to find flaws in other people in order to take the spotlight off their own flaws. This is the case in any issue. A woman who is “addicted” to romance novels may point at a man who is addicted to porn and say, “at least romance novels aren’t porn”, just as a man who struggles with pornography might point at a woman reading romance novels and say “but it’s the same thing!”

They’re both right, in my opinion, but this is a common argument.

 

[GraceDK]

I think it’s pretty natural for people to find flaws in other people in order to take the spotlight off their own flaws. This is the case in any issue. A woman who is “addicted” to romance novels may point at a man who is addicted to porn and say, “at least romance novels aren’t porn”, just as a man who struggles with pornography might point at a woman reading romance novels and say “but it’s the same thing!”

They’re both right, in my opinion, but this is a common argument.

I dont think Christians who really know Christ will say that indulging in movies with casual sex-content is okay. many Christian women and men do watch this however… However… I would say that
yes, pornography which involves real people having real premarital distorted contraceptive sex while the person watching it is meant to masturbate is worse than any fiction. But maybe thats just me and my female cover-up reflex.

 

[gettingthere]

I dont think Christians who really know Christ will say that indulging in movies with casual sex-content is okay. many Christian women and men do watch this however… However… I would say that
yes, pornography which involves real people having real premarital distorted contraceptive sex while the person watching it is meant to masturbate is worse than any fiction. But maybe thats just me and my female cover-up reflex.

It’s just a matter of opinion, I guess. I’ve read romance novels before and it all just seemed… dirty. I don’t think it’s a matter of “the lesser of two evils”, it’s more of a matter of neither of them being morally right (in my opinion).

 

[GraceDK]

It’s just a matter of opinion, I guess. I’ve read romance novels before and it all just seemed… dirty. I don’t think it’s a matter of “the lesser of two evils”, it’s more of a matter of neither of them being morally right (in my opinion).

I agree… they are both a bad waste of time. But maybe you would do me a favour in telling me what it is about romantic novels that makes you think they are sinful for women to read? That would help this dialog. Because if I view a movie like “Ever After” with Drew Barrymore which is very romantic then I did not know that pious Christian men would feel as bad about that as though I was watching porn. I for my part would rather that my future husband would read a fictional romance or watch “pride and prejudice” every week than knowing he was watching porn every half year.
If you take a (secular)romance novel you might find 5 pages out of 150 having really sexual content and then its supposed to be in the context of being with mr. right. Now look at porn… and… I dont quite see how you can make the comparison.

There are many books written for men that also have a fairytale element - beautiful and submissive maidens which are to be rescued, the winning of a crown or a war, and the perfect marriage…
Is that perversion? not in my mind. I’d rather have a man read such a book or movie than watching porn.

I think there are degrees to sins in this area. There are things that are sinful because the content is a real waste of time and nothing much more. A woman reading a novel is eg. not masturbating… and as I said… its a fiction whereas porn is not…

Yet, I continue to wonder… what is it in novels that makes you not like them? Women have a natural God created longing to be beautiful prinsesses, romanced and pursued, and giving themselves to the knight/ one and only who is honorable and virtuous and capable of loving in a passionate and self giving way. This is seen as interesting and worthy to pursue by the female heart. Is it an ideal? Absolutely, but that is also legitimate, just like men have their legitimate ideals about women and what makes the women of his dreams.
If its a pious and clever princess in a novel then great… If its a distorted porn-star then … not so great.

However… if you by romantic novels mean pornographic litterature then I think you should say it straight out. I have never read something like that. Neither do I plan to.

 

[gettingthere]

I agree… they are both a bad waste of time. But maybe you would do me a favour in telling me what it is about romantic novels that makes you think they are sinful for women to read?

I’m specifically talking about the “bodice-ripper” novels. I’m not really sure what they are called. My friend who reads them calls them “smut” and at the book store there is an entire section for them that is labeled “romance novels”. These are pretty much sex on every page books. Definitely not about romance or love… usually about just sex. And they are usually quite graphic in nature.

Regular novels about romance (like Jane Austen’s romance or even Nicholas Sparks) are typically just called romantic fiction. I’m 100% okay with romantic fiction! If I wasn’t, I’d be a huge hypocrite because my book collection is filled with these types of books!

 

[GraceDK]

I’m specifically talking about the “bodice-ripper” novels. I’m not really sure what they are called. My friend who reads them calls them “smut” and at the book store there is an entire section for them that is labeled “romance novels”. These are pretty much sex on every page books. Definitely not about romance or love… usually about just sex. And they are usually quite graphic in nature.

Regular novels about romance (like Jane Austen’s romance or even Nicholas Sparks) are typically just called romantic fiction. I’m 100% okay with romantic fiction! If I wasn’t, I’d be a huge hypocrite because my book collection is filled with these types of books!

Great to get this clear. Then … I dont think I have ever seen such a book. Might have heard of them as a pre-porn trend in the 20’s… but never saw one neither in my house or in any of my friends houses. So again… why talk about this as though its a normal Christian women struggle compared to male porn-addíction? I know not one woman who is a Christian who is reading porn-litterature… let’s call it by its name, shall we, instead of calling it “romance-novels” just like we should not call strip clubs “gentlemen-clubs”…

 

[gettingthere]

Great to get this clear. Then … I dont think I have ever seen such a book. Might have heard of them as a pre-porn trend in the 20’s… but never saw one neither in my house or in any of my friends houses. So again… why talk about this as though its a normal Christian women struggle compared to male porn-addíction? I know not one woman who is a Christian who is reading porn-litterature… let’s call it by its name, shall we, instead of calling it “romance-novels” just like we should not call strip clubs “gentlemen-clubs”…

Well, I’m glad you have never seen a book like this, but you’d be foolish to think Christian women do not struggle with the same things Christian men do. Regardless of whether it is porn in visual or literature media, Christians of both genders struggle with it.

 

[surfinpure]

Agreed, but so does the entire culture, everything from advertising to fashion.

It distorts women’s expectations because they go looking for romance rather than love. I’ve never read a romance so I can only comment on it as it’s portrayed in films.
Romance seems to be all about finding that one special soulmate in all the world (Prince Charming), a stupid concept. It isn’t about sickness & health till death do you part, or getting old together, definitely not about raising kids.
A lot of wives complain that their husbands aren’t romantic anymore – DUH! this is the real world, it’s time to grow up. I wonder how many marriages are wrecked because the wife goes looking for “romance” outside the marriage. Probably at least as many as are destroyed because the husband goes looking for sex.

How very harsh.

Part of the reason our culture is so backward is that we seem to believe sex and romance should be separate. In truth, they are two ends to the same event, which is marital love. If a husband stops romancing his own wife, he is largely to blame if she stops responding to him sexually. The couple ought to work to protect and preserve the romance in the marriage, or else the sex is mechanical and meaningless. If a husband loves his wife, he will not neglect the romance and expect the sex. And if he finds sex elsewhere, it is only because he invested into another romance.

 

[GraceDK]

Well, I’m glad you have never seen a book like this, but you’d be foolish to think Christian women do not struggle with the same things Christian men do. Regardless of whether it is porn in visual or literature media, Christians of both genders struggle with it.

Look, I’ll be just blunt with you. We all have our struggles. But why deny the fact that porn and masturbation is a predominantly male problem?
I dont know whats going on in America… how could I? Maybe American Christian women read pornographic books. You can give me the statistics. All I can tell you is that among my Christian friends in Europe many of the men have struggled or still struggle with porn and/ or masturbation whereas my female Christian friends simply dont… none of them. Its not in their universe just like it is not in mine.
A few of my Christian friends of both genders have had a time of falling into impurity but nothing that went on for years or months.
Its men themselves that have made me aware that they suffer from the abuse of porn and that its so widespread among men… I am not saying that women dont have any problems but just ask that we be honest enough to admit that this precise problem with porn is mostly the struggle of men.

 

[gettingthere]

Look, I’ll be just blunt with you. We all have our struggles. But why deny the fact that porn and masturbation is a predominantly male problem?
I dont know whats going on in America… how could I? Maybe American Christian women read pornographic books. You can give me the statistics. All I can tell you is that among my Christian friends in Europe many of the men have struggled or still struggle with porn and/ or masturbation whereas my female Christian friends simply dont… none of them. Its not in their universe just like it is not in mine.
A few of my Christian friends of both genders have had a time of falling into impurity but nothing that went on for years or months.
Its men themselves that have made me aware that they suffer from the abuse of porn and that its so widespread among men… I am not saying that women dont have any problems but just ask that we be honest enough to admit that this precise problem with porn is mostly the struggle of men.

Maybe with visual porn it is more a struggle for men, because men tend to be more visual creatures. But women struggle with the same issues… they write the books for women. It might be an American thing (though I doubt it, because I’m not in America now, and I still see those books in every store that sells books). It is probably just more acceptable socially to get your ‘fix’ from a book rather than from a video or magazine or whatever.

And maybe Christian women don’t struggle with this quite as much as non-Christian women, I don’t know. But I don’t understand why we have to admit that pornography is generally a struggle with men? Why not just say that in general for people of both genders, sexual addictions are REAL and UNHEALTHY? Why do we have to pin it on just the men if some women struggle with it also?

 

[MoBeck]

How very harsh.

Sorry. It’s easy to let your typing run ahead of your brain.

Part of the reason our culture is so backward is that we seem to believe sex and romance should be separate. In truth, they are two ends to the same event, which is marital love. If a husband stops romancing his own wife, he is largely to blame if she stops responding to him sexually. The couple ought to work to protect and preserve the romance in the marriage, or else the sex is mechanical and meaningless. If a husband loves his wife, he will not neglect the romance and expect the sex. And if he finds sex elsewhere, it is only because he invested into another romance.

Hmm . . . well, marital love was getting along just fine for centuries before romance was ever dreamed of.

A lot of what you say is true. In our culture I’m afraid that men use romance as a way to “get” women and women use sex (immediate or future) to “get” men. Add to this that our culture seems to extend adolescence almost indefinitely. My “it’s time to grow up” should have been addressed to both parties.

I agree with gettingthere about people failing to communicate their expectations. But how many people have been led by our culture to have unreasonable expectations?
Just think of all the new cliches you hear : “I’m not getting my needs met.”, “I have a right to be happy.” etc.

Maybe we’d be better off if we went back to the old days when folks took a more realistic approach to marriage and asked is he hard working? does she come from a good family? is s/he a churchgoer? Will s/he be a good parent?
Instead of is she hot? is he romantic?

 

[rpp]

I once heard romance novels described as “emotional porn”. This same person, a woman, points out that while men may be attracted to photos and visual stimulation, women are more likely to “daydream” or fantasize.

Essentially, many of the “bodice ripper” tiphat: gettingthere) types of romance novels twist womens expectations of how men will romance and love in the same way as porn images distort men’s ideas of women, sex and love.

I see absolutely no morally justifiable reason to expose oneself to any type of porn, photos or “emotional”. Both can be terribly detrimental to married life. Woman complain that porn pictures twist their husbands and it makes them feel cheated on. Well, from a husband’s point of view, his wife should not participate in romantic fantasies for the very same reason.

 

[gettingthere]

I once heard romance novels described as “emotional porn”. This same person, a woman, points out that while men may be attracted to photos and visual stimulation, women are more likely to “daydream” or fantasize.

Essentially, many of the “bodice ripper” tiphat: gettingthere) types of romance novels twist womens expectations of how men will romance and love in the same way as porn images distort men’s ideas of women, sex and love.

I see absolutely no morally justifiable reason to expose oneself to any type of porn, photos or “emotional”. Both can be terribly detrimental to married life. Woman complain that porn pictures twist their husbands and it makes them feel cheated on. Well, from a husband’s point of view, his wife should not participate in romantic fantasies for the very same reason.

YES! Exactly this.

 

[GraceDK]

**rpp:I once heard romance novels described as “emotional porn”. This same person, a woman, points out that while men may be attracted to photos and visual stimulation, women are more likely to “daydream” or fantasize. **

You mean, daydream as in having an impure thought slip into your head and getting rid of it as soon as you discover its there and asking God’s forgiveness? Yes… I guess many of us have that little problem… especially in our most fertile time of our cycle. Yet. It does not qualify as sin if its interrupted and not acted on. Daydreaming is not a sin in itself so I assume you talk about indulging in sexual thoughts. So why not be clear? Is indulging in sexual thoughts more common among women than among men? Really?
I dont know about how widespread this is. Havent been in the confession with “women” … neither I suspect, have you.
However… placing your self in front of a tv or internet with the intention of watching porn (comitting death sin), sit there again and again for minutes or hours while masturbating is hardly the same as experiencing a fleeing sexual thought.
If you talk about having a fantazy about some handsome man walking hand in hand with me on the beach, or even rescueing me from a monster …then … well I still dont see the sin in that.
Could someone direct me to the place in the catechism where it says that daydreaming is forbidden for women… … maybe we should stop reading the old fairytales to our kids too… they may get the wrong ideas in their heads, no?

I see absolutely no morally justifiable reason to expose oneself to any type of porn, photos or “emotional”. Both can be terribly detrimental to married life. Woman complain that porn pictures twist their husbands and it makes them feel cheated on. Well, from a husband’s point of view, his wife should not participate in romantic fantasies for the very same reason.

Romantic fantasies… define romantic fantasies for me please? You see, this whole thread puzzles me. I did not know that men tended to see romance as a sinful thing. I thought they enjoyed having a romantic relationship… Yes I am:

 

[gettingthere]

You mean, daydream as in having an impure thought slip into your head and getting rid of it as soon as you discover its there and asking God’s forgiveness? Yes… I guess many of us have that little problem… especially in our most fertile time of our cycle. Yet. It does not qualify as sin if its interrupted and not acted on. Daydreaming is not a sin in itself so I assume you talk about indulging in sexual thoughts. So why not be clear? Is indulging in sexual thoughts more common among women than among men? Really?
I dont know about how widespread this is. Havent been in the confession with “women” … neither I suspect, have you.
However… placing your self in front of a tv or internet with the intention of watching porn (comitting death sin), sit there again and again for minutes or hours while masturbating is hardly the same as experiencing a fleeing sexual thought.
If you talk about having a fantazy about some handsome man walking hand in hand with me on the beach, or even rescueing me from a monster …then … well I still dont see the sin in that.
Could someone direct me to the place in the catechism where it says that daydreaming is forbidden for women… … maybe we should stop reading the old fairytales to our kids too… they may get the wrong ideas in their heads, no?

We’re not actually talking about daydreaming or having fantasies. We’re STILL talking about “pornographic literature”. As far as I understood it, RRP was relating pornographic literature as “emotional porn” because women are more connected to their emotions. It’s not that men aren’t prone to indulging in sexual thoughts, it’s that women use pornographic literature the same way men use visual porn (movies/images). It stimulates sexual fantasies.

This isn’t about daydreaming or fantasizing in general, it’s about the sexual thoughts/fantasies that come about when a person exposes themselves to porn in any form.

 

[rpp]

We’re not actually talking about daydreaming or having fantasies. We’re STILL talking about “pornographic literature”. As far as I understood it, RRP was relating pornographic literature as “emotional porn” because women are more connected to their emotions. It’s not that men aren’t prone to indulging in sexual thoughts, it’s that women use pornographic literature the same way men use visual porn (movies/images). It stimulates sexual fantasies.

This isn’t about daydreaming or fantasizing in general, it’s about the sexual thoughts/fantasies that come about when a person exposes themselves to porn in any form.

Thank you. You actually explained what I was getting at better than I could.

And, no, I am not referring to non-sinful activity. By definition, daydreaming and fantasizing imply that the thoughts are being entertained, not immediately rejected.

 

[John_AH]

Very interesting topic.

I was just at a very popular book store and was amazed on how many romance type books that were there. They were not just the “smut” type but supposed novels. Every table in the place had at least 50% of the space dedicated to such books (assuming by there covers).

I was thinking about it and asked myself are we that relationship deprived to support such a vast amount of ****? Sorry women this is a woman thing. (I was at a catholic conference not to long ago and asked where are all the men’s books? There were shelves and shelves of woman’s books but not one men’s book.) When I asked they said men don’t read books (a little sad but men learn differently, I had to order the book online just to get a hold on one).

In the same respect are men not being sexually satisfied enough to support porn?

We start seeing a pattern. We are looking to fill our lives with love in the wrong places (sex to men is love; it is the gift of self they really seek even though they don’t realize it). In the same respect it is the intimacy that woman seek.

My simple answer for all of this, wake up to reality. We can go to those books, porn, music… because we can stop the connection (control). We don’t have to bond or make ourselves emotionally available (or do). We can dream or imagine all we want and supposedly not get hurt. But it does hurt; when we realize that we are not getting a size 2 wife or Don Juan husband. When we pass up devoted catholic/Christians because they don’t fill our expectations.

I read allot of what hurts marriages and they point to one thing EXPECTATIONS. It is sooo bad nowadays that the dating scene is like car shopping. Take it for test drive put on some ware and tare but sorry you don’t fill the profile of HIM or HER.

Where is the acceptance of faults? We are sinners. No one is perfect. I’m not saying to go marry anyone, but someone who is practicing to become more catholic.

God Bless,

God’s servant,
John Anthony

 

[Dtmccameron]

to the poster above me.

Well, I’m glad you have never seen a book like this, but you’d be foolish to think Christian women do not struggle with the same things Christian men do. Regardless of whether it is porn in visual or literature media, Christians of both genders struggle with it.

Oh, and let’s not also make it seem as though the sin of men is entirely for porn and women for smut, both can commit these depraved acts which do degrade the human dignity and pervert the soul.

And still I feel that the effect of the smut is more insidious as it grabs hold of the mind and soul, I personally feel, more strongly that filthy images do.

And to the confused Lady, it’s really the devil’s fault. He’s cause society to confuse romance with sexsin, and thereby, we forum goers just refer to the filth by the name it’s commonly know by, a name which is sadly shares with a beautiful thing.

In town, a store opened named, “Books n’ things”. We went in, oh, must’ve been last year. Every book, every single solitary book, was smut. They even catagorized it into sections! Western, crime, fantasy!

 

[GraceDK]

to the poster above me.

Oh, and let’s not also make it seem as though the sin of men is entirely for porn and women for smut, both can commit these depraved acts which do degrade the human dignity and pervert the soul.

And still I feel that the effect of the smut is more insidious as it grabs hold of the mind and soul, I personally feel, more strongly that filthy images do.

And to the confused Lady, it’s really the devil’s fault. He’s cause society to confuse romance with sexsin, and thereby, we forum goers just refer to the filth by the name it’s commonly know by, a name which is sadly shares with a beautiful thing.

You dont need to feel sorry for this confused lady. I am quite happy that I am confused at hearing about this seemlingly widespread disease of Christian women using porn-litt. -Had no idea it existed.
I got the feeling that men here were waging war on women’s romantic ideas about fairytales, heroes, beauty and everlasting love. now, that got me quite sad.
Now that some of you have made clear that you are not talking at all about romantic litterature or thoughts but porn-books (lets be clear in our speech shall we?) then I can only get calm and say: I thought oversexualised books were made and sold to 50 year, old lonely, secualar women. I have never seen such books in the house of any of my friends, neither have I ever opened one.

However… if truth be told I think men and women who want to follow Christ should be much more selective in their movies and entertainment. Some will watch movies with sexual intercourse at the climax of the movie as some sort of display of love. Why do Christians watch such a movie? Then there are movies about violence and psychopaths and the same question comes to mind again… Lets throw all them TVs out (and so too for those who use net-porn). Devices used for sinning are good for nothing or very little.