Portugal: Catholic priests quitting church 'to marry'

[NekoNecro]

sigh.

On the contrary, lifelong celibacy is quite natural… for those whose vocation it is to be celibate, whether they are male or female.

There are certain freak examples (like myself, who are 100% asexual and have never had a sexual urge or thought) but this is in no way natural, so much so my universities psychology department actually asked if they could study me. Some people do remain celibate their entire lives, but here is the thing; they can and do experience desire. Desire for marriage and union is natural and the norm, and everyone should at least have a shot at it.

If a man discerns honestly that it is God’s will that he be married, then he will do that. If a man discerns honestly that it is God’s will that he not be married, then he will be celibate. What’s so difficult to understand about that? Or are you contesting the very fact that celibacy can be intended by God for certain people at all?

I actually do. As an asexual (or natural celibate as I suppose the church might label it) I do not consider this to be a gift, I consider it as an unusual psychological oddity/malfunction, or like being left handed.

That’s not to say I feel guilty or regret this, in some ways I consider myself lucky not feeling an emotional need for companionship but at the same time I am aware this cold, stoic (“robotic” is how one of my friends described it) nature is often unnerving.

I may not feel this pull, but I can observe quite clearly humans are designed to find a mate. It’s their choice if they want to act upon it, but by design we’re nudged towards it.

The Latin Church determined at one point that the vast majority of its priests be celibate, for both practical and spiritual reasons. The Church can legitimately do that. If a priest has a problem being celibate, then he shouldn’t make that promise. It doesn’t mean that he won’t get sexual urges. But if a man is truly intended by God to be celibate, then regardless of whether he is ordained or not, then, well, he is supposed to be celibate.

And you’ve never made a decision in your life that turned out to be a gross miscalculation? I fail to see why they should be punished for realizing their true nature and purpose.

Maybe it isn’t so much that X number of priests should be allowed to get married. Maybe it’s that they were never intended by God to be celibate in the first place. And that is perfectly fine. But the vast majority of Latin priests are required to be celibate. If a man has determined that he is not intended by God to be celibate, then 99.9% of the time, he probably shouldn’t try to become a Latin priest.

I would accept this, had Benedict XVI not gone to such lengths to temp married Protestant ministers into his new order of clerics. That and the Eastern rite has always had a long tradition of married clerics, indeed if you look art Church history for the vast majority of it celibacy was not the norm, I mean even St Peter himself was married!

One should not have to become a robot to serve the Lord, it is possible to do that and raise others to follow him.

 

[Sarcelle]

They do, but they’ve just lost hope. The curia is a horribly slow monolithic bureaucracy, and there was no guarantee such a dispensation would even be granted.

It’s easier just to walk away if they’ve lost hope, or if they still care to preach the Orthodox or Anglican churches would snap them up. I’m sure Clerical celibacy was once an excellent money saving discipline, but it’s getting increasingly self destructive as time goes on.

However foul sexuality might be viewed by traditionalists, lifelong celibacy is not natural. There are some that do not ever marry, but everyone should have the right to take one if they so choose or feel the need to. That’s been recognized as a human right since the 1950’s. Time to get with the program or…well, you can read the “or else” being played out right here.

Whar do you mean by “or else”? Not everyone who wants to get married gets married. Even if everyone was free to get married, not all can get married

Do you mean that people who cannot marry turn into pedophiles? There are others who are not priests that for some reason or another cannot get married. At least priests made the.choice of becoming priests knowing they cannot get.married

Should we round up single chaste people who cannot get married because they could turn into pedophiles at any moment?

 

[NekoNecro]

Whar do you mean by “or else”?

I refer to a weakening of the Church, numbers of seminarians have been nosediving since the 60’s. There is a severe shortage of priests, and while not the only reason it is clear one of them is the harsh demand of clerical celibacy.

Do you mean that people who cannot marry turn into pedophiles? There are others who are not priests that for some reason or another cannot get married. At least priests made the.choice of becoming priests knowing they cannot get.married

W-Well…You made that correlation not me. It seems like a curious jump in logic but lets think about this and compare; why has the Orthodox church not had a major sex scandal (not just one in this century, but over the centuries) while Catholic history is littered with them?

I’m not saying the demand for celibacy leads to pedophilia, but it can’t be denied that it encourages fornication.

Should we round up single chaste people who cannot get married because they could turn into pedophiles at any moment?

Here is the difference, single people can find a partner. Clerics are barred form doing do. Single people have a shot, and thus are less frustrated than he who has none and never shall.

 

[Sarcelle]

I refer to a weakening of the Church, numbers of seminarians have been nosediving since the 60’s. There is a severe shortage of priests, and while not the only reason it is clear one of them is the harsh demand of clerical celibacy.

W-Well…You made that correlation not me. It seems like a curious jump in logic but lets think about this and compare; why has the Orthodox church not had a major sex scandal (not just one in this century, but over the centuries) while Catholic history is littered with them?

I’m not saying the demand for celibacy leads to pedophilia, but it can’t be denied that it encourages fornication.

Here is the difference, single people can find a partner. Clerics are barred form doing do. Single people have a shot, and thus are less frustrated than he who has none and never shall.

People have been linking the sex scandals with the celibacy requirement for a long time. The implication is that if priests were allowed to get married in the first place than these sex abuse scandals would not happen.

Single lay people may get married but that does not mean all of them get married. The end result is the same as that of the priest. If a priest wants to get married but cannot due to a vow he took and a single lay person cannot get married even though he may get married, the result is the same, unwanted celibacy. So if people.continually link the sex abuse scandals with forced celibacy, than it’s not much of a leap to go from unwanted celibacy in priests to unwanted celibacy in lay people

 

[TCEL]

That’s not to say I feel guilty or regret this, in some ways I consider myself lucky not feeling an emotional need for companionship but at the same time I am aware this cold, stoic (“robotic” is how one of my friends described it) nature is often unnerving.

Just so you know, what you are describing about yourself doesn’t weird me out. Neither does celibacy weird me out.

Here’s how I see it. Not everyone is ordained by God to have sex, or get married. “Robotic” is one of those words people use to slur celibacy, but I don’t think it reflects a deeper understanding of our human dignity. I think our society would be happier if everyone acknowledged this, instead of having high expectations that marriage is “easier” than celibacy, or even necessarily preferred. Maybe it’s because as a Catholic woman, I can look to Mary, who was both mother and Virgin.

 

[josie_L]

Id argue that the ultimate commitment of the human person to a spousal union with God is martyrdom, not celibacy.

Also, it is against the natural law to remain celibate. Human beings are ordered to procreate.

As I said before it might not be the natural state of man to remain celibate, but it takes the supernatural to become so, hence, the reason so many (known) saints were celibate.

 

[NekoNecro]

People have been linking the sex scandals with the celibacy requirement for a long time. The implication is that if priests were allowed to get married in the first place than these sex abuse scandals would not happen.

And I agree with this premise, since while the abuse of minors, use of prostitutes and other assorted acts of sexual misconduct have taken place in other institutions they have never quite occurred in the sheer abundance that it has been found within the Catholic church.

I do think even if preists could get married we’d have the odd case of adultery every now and then but much of it would cease. It would also become considerably easier to identify pedophiles come to think about it (or gay ones, since I know Benedict was on a LGB witcth-hunt within the Clergy’s ranks and I don’t think that has stopped.)

Single lay people may get married but that does not mean all of them get married. The end result is the same as that of the priest. If a priest wants to get married but cannot due to a vow he took and a single lay person cannot get married even though he may get married, the result is the same, unwanted celibacy. So if people.continually link the sex abuse scandals with forced celibacy, than it’s not much of a leap to go from unwanted celibacy in priests to unwanted celibacy in lay people

By this we should bar everyone from marriage just because we get the odd person who cannot maintain a stable relationship.

Sarcelle, unless the CC is purposefully recruiting perverts to serve as priests (which I doubt) there can be no other explanation for this. Let’s look at this from another perspective, Eastern Rite priests can be married; why are they not even on the radar for sex abuse cases? Can you think of an example of sex abuse in a Byzantine rite parish? I can’t.

 

[NekoNecro]

Just so you know, what you are describing about yourself doesn’t weird me out. Neither does celibacy weird me out.

Here’s how I see it. Not everyone is ordained by God to have sex, or get married. “Robotic” is one of those words people use to slur celibacy, but I don’t think it reflects a deeper understanding of our human dignity. I think our society would be happier if everyone acknowledged this, instead of having high expectations that marriage is “easier” than celibacy, or even necessarily preferred. Maybe it’s because as a Catholic woman, I can look to Mary, who was both mother and Virgin.

Well, I’m sure I don’t seem half as frosty on here as I come across in real life.

Your words are interesting, although I do have to agree with critics though that “robotic” is quite a good word to describe some aspects of celibacy/asexuality; for example while I can see that a reciprocated romantic relationship is highly beneficial for spiritual and emotional development in other people I myself am incapable of empathizing with them (one of the reasons I don’t personally think unmarried priests make good marriage Councillors; how can an individual myself who cannot comprehend the flurry of emotions involved or one who has rejected such possibly use knowledgeable judgement or guide couples on such personal matters?)

I think marriage is far harder work than celibacy, but from observation I can also see the work put into it can pay far greater rewards (spiritually, emotionally and financially) than celibacy can.

 

[Sarcelle]

And I agree with this premise, since while the abuse of minors, use of prostitutes and other assorted acts of sexual misconduct have taken place in other institutions they have never quite occurred in the sheer abundance that it has been found within the Catholic church.

I do think even if preists could get married we’d have the odd case of adultery every now and then but much of it would cease. It would also become considerably easier to identify pedophiles come to think about it (or gay ones, since I know Benedict was on a LGB witcth-hunt within the Clergy’s ranks and I don’t think that has stopped.)

By this we should bar everyone from marriage just because we get the odd person who cannot maintain a stable relationship.

Sarcelle, unless the CC is purposefully recruiting perverts to serve as priests (which I doubt) there can be no other explanation for this. Let’s look at this from another perspective, Eastern Rite priests can be married; why are they not even on the radar for sex abuse cases? Can you think of an example of sex abuse in a Byzantine rite parish? I can’t.

What exactly is the link between celibacy and sex abuse. You just said you agree.with the premise that if the celibacy requirement was lifted than we would see a lot less sex abuse scandals right?

So what is the link?

You also mentioned that the CC is not purposely taking in perverts to be priests. This means that the ones guilty of the sex abuse did not start out as perverts. This implies that they became so because of the celibacy requirement.

If that were the case are the majority of pedophiles in the outside world also single men who for some reason cannot get married?

 

[NekoNecro]

What exactly is the link between celibacy and sex abuse, if you agree.with the premise that if the celibacy requirement was lifted that we would see a lot less sex abuse scandals?

Sexual frustration, the burning that Paul spoke of within the bible. “It is better to marry than to burn”.

A married man has a release for sexual desire into a positive outlet in a mutual loving relationship, whereas a celibate cleric does not and never can. I have noticed that “blue balled” individuals (especially middle aged to older men) sometimes go to spectacular lengths to get “laid”, cheating, prostitution, sometimes even bisexuality…Apparently pedophilia in this case.

I do not think the abuse would vanish 100%, you do get the odd case in every section of society but the number of cases of sex abuse would drop dramatically without a doubt.

 

[Sarcelle]

Sexual frustration, the burning that Paul spoke of within the bible. “It is better to marry than to burn”.

A married man has a release for sexual desire into a positive outlet in a mutual loving relationship, whereas a celibate cleric does not and never can. I have noticed that “blue balled” individuals (especially middle aged to older men) sometimes go to spectacular lengths to get “laid”, cheating, prostitution…Apparently pedophilia in this case.

In that case, in the lay world, single people who cannot get married should be rounded off and carted to jail simply because they are a walking time bomb that can detonate due to sexual frustration.

After all while single lay people have the option to get married , not all can get married. Forced.celibacy can exist in the CC as well as in the lay world. We should see.the same results in both worlds right?

I know that single lay people can have sex but that is considered mortal sin. So if a single lay faithful observes.the rule.of chastity than there is a chance.that he or she may turn into sex abusers due to sexual frustration.

 

[Thorns]

As I said before it might not be the natural state of man to remain celibate, but it takes the supernatural to become so, hence, the reason so many (known) saints were celibate.

In other words you agree.

The thing is, yes there were saints who remained celibate and chaste for life and yes it had to have taken the supernatural to achieve that, but not everyone experiences the supernatural on that level. With that said, the exceptions shouldn’t make the rule.

 

[ProVobis]

There are plenty of lay Catholics who grew up in the Church, have gotten married, and have left the Church long ago. They exercised their option to marry, and are not continuing their journey in the Church either.
Being married and raising a family has it’s own crosses too as they will discover.

:yup:

 

[Thorns]

Sexual frustration, the burning that Paul spoke of within the bible. “It is better to marry than to burn”.

A married man has a release for sexual desire into a positive outlet in a mutual loving relationship, whereas a celibate cleric does not and never can. I have noticed that “blue balled” individuals (especially middle aged to older men) sometimes go to spectacular lengths to get “laid”, cheating, prostitution, sometimes even bisexuality…Apparently pedophilia in this case.

I do not think the abuse would vanish 100%, you do get the odd case in every section of society but the number of cases of sex abuse would drop dramatically without a doubt.

I have even seen the great lengths single people go through to seek out women, like even travelling to other countries to meet them. I imagine for an individual who is banned from having any hope of marrying, with idle time on their hands, as well as being more fiercly attacked and tempted by the evil one, that this just creates a more desperate situation for the individual, where they might engage in things they otherwise wouldnt have.

The power of love and companionship are very, very strong. I dont think many people realize that. The power of love even has the ability to “convert” hardened, depraved, serial killers whos deprivation was so embedded in them, as seen with Kenneth Bianchi (once he got married he stopped killing cold turkey.) The power of love has the ability to free people from their deep seeded addictions.

I really have no opinion on this matter though one way or the other.

 

[Tigg]

Take heart, Portugal. I believe Our Lady said the dogma of the faith would always be preserved in your country. (Fatima, church approved apparition.)

 

[SyroMalankara]

The power of love and companionship are very, very strong. I dont think many people realize that. The power of love even has the ability to “convert” hardened, depraved, serial killers whos deprivation was so embedded in them, as seen with Kenneth Bianchi (once he got married he stopped killing cold turkey.) The power of love has the ability to free people from their deep seeded addictions.

This is a bizarre comment. Bianchi stopped killing because he was caught, he met his “love” - also a nutcase who conspired with him to kill another woman to try to throw off the police.

At his trial, Bianchi pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity, claiming that another personality, one “Steve Walker”, had committed the crimes. Bianchi even convinced a few expert psychiatrists that he indeed suffered from multiple personality disorder, but investigators brought in their own psychiatrists, mainly Martin Orne. When Orne mentioned to Bianchi that in genuine cases of the disorder, there tends to be three or more personalities, Bianchi promptly created another alias, “Billy”. Eventually, investigators discovered that the name “Steven Walker” came from a student whose identity Bianchi had previously attempted to steal for the purpose of fraudulently practicing psychology. Police also found a small library of books in Bianchi’s home on topics of modern psychology, further indicating his ability to fake the disorder. Once his claims were subjected to this scrutiny, Bianchi eventually admitted that he had been faking the disorder. He was eventually diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder with sexual sadism.[2]

To acquire leniency, Bianchi agreed to testify against Buono. However, in giving his testimony, Bianchi made every effort to be as uncooperative and self-contradictory as possible, apparently hoping to avoid being the ultimate cause of Buono being convicted. In the end, Bianchi’s efforts were unsuccessful, as Buono was convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment.

In 1980, Bianchi began a relationship with Veronica Compton, a woman he had met while in prison. During his trial, she testified for the defense, telling the jury a false, vague tale about the crimes in an attempt to exculpate Bianchi and also admitting to wanting to buy a mortuary with another convicted murderer for the purpose of necrophilia. She was later convicted and imprisoned for attempting to strangle a woman she had lured to a motel in an attempt to convince authorities that the Hillside Strangler was still on the loose. Bianchi had given her some smuggled semen to use to make it look like a rape/murder committed by the Hillside Strangler.

 

[Tigg]

And you’ve never made a decision in your life that turned out to be a gross miscalculation? I fail to see why they should be punished for realizing their true nature and purpose.

This comment illustrates like no other, the complete mis-perception on the meaning of celibacy, the lack of the spiritual and deeper understanding of it in terms of living a sacrificial life, and the reinforcement of the secular attitude that man cannot live without sex. I know…I’m speaking a foreign language.

 

[Thorns]

This is a bizarre comment. Bianchi stopped killing because he was caught, he met his “love” - also a nutcase who conspired with him to kill another woman to try to throw off the police.

Perhaps Ive confused him for another serial killer with a similar situation then. Correction accepted.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

Also, it is against the natural law to remain celibate. Human beings are ordered to procreate.

I suggest you read 1 Corinthians 7 1-10 & 27.

 

[TCEL]

Well, I’m sure I don’t seem half as frosty on here as I come across in real life.

I may come across nicer on here than I do in real life. Body language and all that…

Your words are interesting, although I do have to agree with critics though that “robotic” is quite a good word to describe some aspects of celibacy/asexuality; for example while I can see that a reciprocated romantic relationship is highly beneficial for spiritual and emotional development in other people I myself am incapable of empathizing with them (one of the reasons I don’t personally think unmarried priests make good marriage Councillors; how can an individual myself who cannot comprehend the flurry of emotions involved or one who has rejected such possibly use knowledgeable judgement or guide couples on such personal matters?)

I think it depends on the person. Some people are very clued in to human nature and have that wisdom, while some don’t. (I can be as dense as the next person, yet I learned a lot from watching my sibling’s mistakes without having to make them myself. Of course, I made others.) Actually, in my experience someone who is more removed from a situation can sometimes offer greater clarity and insight. Someone may empathize with my struggles as a stay-at-home expecting mother, which is nice, but sometimes I also need a “removed” appraisal of the situation. Helps with perspective. Like I said, it all tends to be very contextual.

I think marriage is far harder work than celibacy, but from observation I can also see the work put into it can pay far greater rewards (spiritually, emotionally and financially) than celibacy can.

I think they can both be hard and equally “pay out”, because we can experience loneliness and sacrifice no matter our call. I see great, great reward in a woman or man making an entire gift of self to the Lord. There is also great, great reward in the sacrifice that comes from raising children and dying to self.

It’s so multi-faceted!