Post Vatican II Catholics & Converts

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Bettye444

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I am a senior citizen who was Comfirmed Catholic at Easter 2015. I have been a Christian all my life, have actively participated in church life most of that time and a decent student of the Bible. At least the Protestant Bible. I love the one true and Holy Apostolic Catholic Curch and praise God for His Grace in finally getting me here. I have so many questions and I search and study a lot. There are a lot of voices with a lot of information and the ONE thing I desire is the absolute truth.

There is so much written pro and con about Novous Ordo and Tridentine Mass. I know know nothing about how things were before V11. I do know that my parish, which I Love, seems more like a Protestant Church at times than Catholic. I do not like the music except some of the beautiful Marian songs. Where is the Gregorian Chant? Where is the beautiful classical music written for the Church? This Sunday I plan to visit a parish fairly near me that has one Tridentine Mass on Sunday. It will be my first experience and I am looking forward to it.

I would love to hear from others who are converts like myself or cradle Carholics born after V11. Also, any good spiritual direction from anyone who would care to weigh in. I love Jesus and His Blessed Mother. I want to serve as faithfully as possible with the time I have left on this earth.
 
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Just a suggestion: If you have no desire to be provocative, maybe you should stay away from sarcasm. “I think”, “it seems”, “I feel” statements might serve you better and keep your (name removed by moderator)ut from being provocative. Also, expressing “contempt” for others is likely to lead others to approach your writings with bias.

@Bettye444. I am an adult convert to the Church, as well. The Tridentine Mass is beautiful and old and holy and has a wonderful air of sanctity and mystery about it. The NO Mass is comfortable and relatable and loving and has an air of the familial and the fraternal about it. They both provide you with the critical element: the sacrament of the Eucharist. You will find yourself drawn to one or to the other or both. Learn and experience them both! They each will move you and teach you. You simply cannot find this Truth and Peace and Rightness anywhere else but in His church. Welcome!
 
How do you think I knew the advice to give 😉 I get it, totally…
 
I heartily appreciate your thoughtful reply. I’m not going to flag or report anyone unless it is for serious profanity, vulgarity, or obscenity. I honestly want to know if I am in trouble going to a regular NO mass/parish. My parish is conservative and I have enough discernment to know if something is off. Lots of older lifelong practicing Catholics. It is the younger people I worry about. I teach an older communion class and these kids know almost zero about the faith.
 
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I’m a cradle born during VII, was a toddler when it ended.

If you would prefer different music or Latin Mass, look for one in your area and go.

There’s a wide variety of Mass music options out there. Most parishes do not have the resources to put on Gregorian chant weekly. Your best bets for that type of music would be a monastery, a church near a college with a good music program, or a cathedral. If there is an Ordinariate parish near you, they often have good music too.

We have had many discussions of Mass music on here and it seems many people have a strong preference. I like to enjoy and appreciate a wide variety of music at Mass but this is not a popular view. I also think the sacrifice of Jesus is the most important thing and not the music being played (many weekday Masses I attend have no music at all) but lots of other people are apparently so focused on the music.
 
I attend both types of masses and in a variety of churches and congregation sizes. What you must remember is that Jesus is present in each one, in the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. It makes no difference to Jesus what song is sung, what the room looks like. I am also a vat 11 person, I was born in the era of vat 11 and grew up in the church when the mass changes to the vernacular were coming in. All the oldies, including my Grandparents , put away their Rosaries and started participating in mass when it became the vernacular.

I am in Australia so our experience of change was probably slower then yours.
You will serve God faithfully if you strive to do God’s will and not your will. Regardless of the Mass or the location or the setting.
 
thats not true, we have Gregorian Chant and latin song in Norvus Ordo Sunday mass everytime the professional choir turns up to sing with us.
 
I recommend reading this.

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Is what a recent introduction,?
(name removed by moderator), what is your litmus test for how widespread a thing is?

It’s very possible, I live in rural Australia, and we get involved with what we want to sing. Might be time for you guys to do the same 🕊️

We need, as a universal people, to get over the 70s and 80s and work to hold Mass, any Mass , in high regard, afterall Jesus is AT EVERY MASS
 
If Jesus wanted every Mass to be like a Vatican Mass, it would be so. Attend a few indigenous Masses, you will get a new perspective on what Mass is . Its about worshipping and glorifying God.
The Novus Ordo is legitimate,if a person doesn’t like it, then don’t go. the Tridentine Mass was not the first mass, that was a mass in Greek and quite different to the Tridentine mass. Jesus gave us the example of how to worship and have table fellowship at the Last Supper.
You want your rights, go find a Tridentine Mass and celebrate there. But you cannot take away the rights of those who equally love the Novus Ordo Mass.

Jesus is At EVERY MASS. From the Last Supper, through to the catacombs , to mass in secret when people were being martyred, to ornate rich mass in countries that could afford the gold required, to the minimalist church and its mass, to the mass outside, to the mass celebrated in an indigenous tongue with indigenous music.
 
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Why are you drawing such a long bow, Mass in the vernacular in a dusty open outback space, for example, with didge and clap sticks is not liturgical abuse.
This thread is not about liturgical abuse. And to try and steer it in that direction is doing it a very great disservice and pushing a personal agenda for why one Mass is better then the other, why one mass is what Jesus prefers over the other, in your human eyes.

There was no inculturation by the church prior to Vat 11. It was a colonial mission model.

might not be appealing to you, but there are plenty of people its appealing too.

I suggest learning a little more about Church history and why mass moved from Greek to Latin, there was nothing organic about it.

Jesus was all about table fellowship and practiced it in the most unexpected places, like the homes of tax collectors, alongside the most unexpected people, like Samaritan women at wells, and of whom Jesus asked to drink water from her cup. Have you any understanding of what that is about?
Ask these questions, Jesus was a devout Jewish man. Jesus knew Jewish law, Jesus , being Jewish and male would never talk to a Samaritan and a woman at that. To drink from her cup, to ask her to draw water in her vessel, would be an unclean act.

Thats called table fellowship. Jesus shares that table fellowship with you and me and everyone who attends Mass. Jesus shares Himself with all of us sinners. We are the tax collectors, the Samaritan women, the untouchable lepers, the dead bodies of Lazarus raised, (it was unclean to touch a dead body, much less go into a tomb after so many days, when Jewish believed a person was really dead. Thats why Jesus was in the tomb for three days. Because that is the time Jewish consider a person to be really dead.

There is so much to be said for the Table fellowship of Jesus and how He shares it with us.

You are completely misunderstanding what I said. The Mass began in homes of the early christians and in catacombs.
and thats a topic on its own.
 
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That is not my argument.

Education is the key here, education into missionary models.

What happened in the Council of Trent, what was its significance besides refuting Martin Luther.? In terms of power to Bishops and clergy. Thats another thread on its own.

We are discussing table fellowship, and its expression in Mass. You are free to, and you have my permission to insult my intelligence all you wish. However, you should not presume my intention is to insult your intelligence.

Table Fellowship is a big part of Jesus’s ministry. And what is the core theme of Jesus’s ministry? The Kingdom of God, and its closeness. Jesus teaches that everyone is welcome at God’s table, Repentance and love is all it takes, transformation of the person.

Table fellowship is expressed in the Liturgy of the Eucharist when we share in the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus. We share with Jesus, and with the Body of the Church, thats everyone at the Mass. We are sharing table fellowship with the person sitting beside us. Our Epiclesis , our petition as a community, as a congregation sharing in worship of God, at the table of Jesus, is just that. We petition the Holy Spirit to allow us to share with Jesus and participate with Jesus in worshipping and glorifying God.
Who is Jesus offering His sacrifice too? We know its to defeat the devil and death and sin. But just who is Jesus offering himself too as a sacrifice. Next time you watch your Latin Mass priest offering up the Eucharist, or your Norvus Ordo Priest offering up the Eucharist, holding it up high, who is it being offered to?

How did Jesus pray each night when He went off into the desert surrounding Jerusalem? Jesus did not just pray and worship God the Father, His Abba, in a Temple or Synagogue.
King David danced, Miriam danced, the people of Exodus danced with Miriam and rejoiced in God’s victory over the Egyptians and their slavery. Psalms speak of people of the Old Testament dancing and singing while they are walking along. And using tambourines amongst other instruments.

How do you know Jesus did not speak or pray or sing in tongues? The Holy Spirit came upon Jesus when He was Baptised. The Apostles did not speak in tongues until Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came upon them.
 
FYI, you are running a little hot. You might want to back off the gas. This is not how one avoids getting flagged.

Two conduct rules to consider:
#1 Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of personal attacks, threats, and incendiary, divisive, crude or sexually-explicit language.

#4 Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.
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(No, I have not flagged you. Just offering friendly advice. 🙂)
 
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Roseeurekacross said:
thats not true, we have Gregorian Chant and latin song in Norvus Ordo Sunday mass everytime the professional choir turns up to sing with us.
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This is something people often overlook, I think. Those old hymns are often much easier for the volunteer musicians that most parishes actually have. You’ll get much better music of course if you have a paid choir, or ready access to professional musicians - I’ve heard some of the best pieces around schools that have an active music program. But most places simply don’t have the budget to hire musicians and don’t have the time and talent to put on a lot.
 
Bettye444 said:
Where is the beautiful classical music written for the Church
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My goal in life is to attend a good classical/orchestral mass sometime. I feel you with the music. Of course some people are happy with whatever and as long as the church allows it, that’s fine. Maybe if I get enough people to like me before I die I can have Mozart’s Requiem mass at my funeral, lol.
 
I refer you, and all those interested, to the words of Pope Benedict:

"In the first place, there is the fear that the document detracts from the authority of the Second Vatican Council, one of whose essential decisions – the liturgical reform – is being called into question.

"This fear is unfounded. In this regard, it must first be said that the Missal published by Paul VI and then republished in two subsequent editions by John Paul II, obviously is and continues to be the normal Form – the Forma ordinaria – of the Eucharistic Liturgy. The last version of the Missale Romanum prior to the Council, which was published with the authority of Pope John XXIII in 1962 and used during the Council, will now be able to be used as a Forma extraordinaria of the liturgical celebration. It is not appropriate to speak of these two versions of the Roman Missal as if they were “two Rites”. Rather, it is a matter of a twofold use of one and the same rite.

“As for the use of the 1962 Missal as a Forma extraordinaria of the liturgy of the Mass, I would like to draw attention to the fact that this Missal was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted. At the time of the introduction of the new Missal, it did not seem necessary to issue specific norms for the possible use of the earlier Missal. Probably it was thought that it would be a matter of a few individual cases which would be resolved, case by case, on the local level. Afterwards, however, it soon became apparent that a good number of people remained strongly attached to this usage of the Roman Rite, which had been familiar to them from childhood. This was especially the case in countries where the liturgical movement had provided many people with a notable liturgical formation and a deep, personal familiarity with the earlier Form of the liturgical celebration. We all know that, in the movement led by Archbishop Lefebvre, fidelity to the old Missal became an external mark of identity; the reasons for the break which arose over this, however, were at a deeper level. Many people who clearly accepted the binding character of the Second Vatican Council, and were faithful to the Pope and the Bishops, nonetheless also desired to recover the form of the sacred liturgy that was dear to them. This occurred above all because in many places celebrations were not faithful to the prescriptions of the new Missal, but the latter actually was understood as authorizing or even requiring creativity, which frequently led to deformations of the liturgy which were hard to bear. I am speaking from experience, since I too lived through that period with all its hopes and its confusion. And I have seen how arbitrary deformations of the liturgy caused deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the Church.”

“… arbitrary deformations of the liturgy caused deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the Church.”
 
Jesus broke tons of Jewish customs. Harvesting grain to eat and healing in the sabath for example. Or not washing hands before eating. Don’t miss the forest for the trees. Jesus did not teach legalistic adherance to abitrary human disciplines.

I don’t know exactly what you’re insinuating about praying in tongues, but I would caution you from disparaging it. It has support from a couple Popes at least. I would be careful about suggesting the possible work of the Holy Spirit Himself is somehow false. If you’re wrong you’ve got quite the mess on your hands.
 
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