Post Vatican II Catholics & Converts

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(name removed by moderator) has a point. The new mass was created by those who interpreted VII falsely. Their motive was in fact to Protestentize or water down the church.
 
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Shortly before stepping down as Pope, Pope Benedict addressed the confusion that was caused by the reporting on Vatican II by the media in the 1960s.


The Second Vatican Council caused no rupture, the media did. And radicals and dissidents worked together to destroy the Church and the family, and society in general, starting in 1966, shortly after Vatican II ended. I watched it. I lived through it.
 
First I really think there’s more respectful ways to have this conversation. I don’t think “incoherent babble” is appropriate. Secondly, you might want to refresh your memory on the story (acts 2):
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearingJews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans?8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia,Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?” 13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”
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I think it’s clear “how come each of us hears them in our own language” so the 11 we’re simultaneously speaking at least 14 different named languages? Thats impossible.

Secondly St Paul lists interpretation of tongues as a spiritual gift. Understanding a language you speak is not a spiritual gift.
 
I’m aware.

Pretending that he have to adhere to all cultural practices of the early church is rediculous. First off, we don’t follow the only council in the Bible (Jerusalem). Why? It was only a regional council. Not everything is binding forever.
Since there are some who kneel on Sunday and during the season of Pentecost, this holy synod decrees that, so that the same observances may be maintained in every diocese, one should offer one’s prayers to the Lord standing.
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That’s the 20th cannon of the council of Nicaea. Turns out, we’re free to change the liturgy in some ways. Either that or even the EF is wrong here.
 
We don’t have paid choirs. All musicians volunteer here in my Diocese, professional or amateur. The only time a choir gets paid if it’s a donation by a family in a funeral mass, for example. That is infrequent and then the donation goes for a coffee each or into a charity fund.

We have schools Catholic and non catholic, whose musical minded, be it children or teachers, contribute to the music. There is a gorgeous pipe organ, about 100 years old that has a handful of players and a few music students learning to play. Succession is the key to ensuring there are people to play it.
 
No problem. I only hope you’ll change your mind when I do.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit
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With my own emphasis this is from 2 Corinthians 12.

Here’s some more really quite clear evidence:

From your interpretation of tongues the person 1) doesn’t speak the language they speak through the spirit (and here we agree). But 2) It’s shown by scripture that they can interpret it. Again they don’t speak the language but can interpret it. So it’s a spiritual gift. (2 Corinthians 14:13). Give the whole couple of chapters there a read. I don’t see how much if any of it fits with your opinion.
For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say.
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Wrong again.

St Teresa of Avila “Interior Castle”:
Amongst these favours, at once painful and pleasant, Our Lord sometimes causes in the soul a certain jubilation and a strange and mysterious kind of prayer. If He bestows this grace on you, praise Him fervently for it; I describe it so that you may know that it is something real. I believe that the faculties of the soul are closely united to God but that He leaves them at liberty to rejoice in their happiness together with the senses, although they do not know what they are enjoying nor how they do so. This may sound nonsense but it really happens.
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And she encourages others to seek the gift:
In this state of prayer a person is rendered by this jubilee so forgetful of self and everything else that she can neither think nor speak of anything but praising God, to which her joy prompts her. Let us all of us join her, my daughters, for why should we wish to be wiser than she? What can make us happier? And may all creatures unite their praises with ours for ever and ever.
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People who wish to disparage the origin and function of Novus Ordo and accuse the Catholic Church of watering down mass; or attempting othering of a group of people by putting them down along with the celebration of the Mass in the vernacular, really need to cross their T’s and dot their i’s on the work that went into and came out of the Second Vatican Council.

It’s a huge accusation ‘water down the Church’ and one no one ever seems to back up.
People weren’t happy with Council Of Trent changes either. Or Greek to Latin, or what they thought were Bishops selling out to Emporer Constantinople.

I never read on this forum people discussing why the Mass changed. Only lament that it did and how it did in particular locations 4 or 5 decades ago.

Get involved with music ministry, you want a return to traditional music, learn Latin, learn to sing and put some of those songs on the weekly or monthly play list. Fund raise and buy a church pipe organ.

It’s time to get past vat 11 lament, especially those who did not live through it or before it, the Church is the people, young people are it’s future. It’s not a bunch of satellite dioceses with no authority to do anything . Bishops have authority to make decisions, that’s one good thing about Vat11.
 
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The changes were of a different magnitude perhaps but of the same substance. Nothing in the OF invalidates the mass. The church was within her rights to implement the changes she did. I don’t think she made a bad move and you do. That’s ok, but I’ll defend the church on this particular change, in general.

For one I might still be a protestant if I had to convert to the EF. Maybe not though. 5 years ago I would’ve never thought I’d be Catholic.

What good are beautiful prayers you can’t understand? It’s ironic we have this conversation at the same time as we discuss tongues. Paul says again and again “Tongues aren’t as useful for church because people can’t understand it” and you’re happy to jump on that bandwagon but you don’t see why Latin might not be the best language for modern American liturgy.
 
ROFL! my children have never known the Latin Mass. Some how they managed to remain Catholics with the OF. Guess the OF does work on youth.
 
(name removed by moderator) show me where I said
‘ Christ would enforce a single Mass if He wanted to’
Don’t show me your interpretation of what I said.

And then show me what you are calling liturgical abuse in the Ordinary Form of Mass.

Let’s actually list what happened at Trent, rather then alluding to buzz words like ‘counterreformation’

And you will notice my question to you about the Council Of Trent was about the the shift of decision making, and power, who held it and why. Not about rites.

If you do not believe the Mass is a (in your own words) ‘lovely community gathering’. What the do you think the People of God is, the Body of the Church, the Priesthood of the People and the Communion of Saints?

The Catholic Church is a community, of people.

I point you to the words of the person who taught us this

Where two or more people are gathered in my name , I am there with them.

The Catholic Church, the Mass, and it’s rites are not solitary activities. We gather to celebrate. And that tradition started with the catechumens of the Early Church.

I would suggest you learn about the petition of the Epiclesis. And who is doing the petitioning. And just who is celebrating the Mass.

Jesus , as a Jew, prayed outside the Temple and the Synagogue. The biggest and best example we have of that is in the transfiguration, and of course the prayer to and worship of God the Father in the Garden the night Jesus was arrested. And in the Last Supper.

This is not a liturgical thread, it’s about post Vat 11 .
 
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(name removed by moderator)

And who celebrates the Mass alongside the Priest?

( is this one of those language barriers again)
 
Let’s stop and clarify what celebration of the Mass means
 
Well, it is a valid form but Church attendance has dropped dramatically in the West.
 
From The Spirit of the Liturgy by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger:

"Unprecedented Clericalism and the Self-Enclosed Circle

"Admittedly, these connections were obscured or fell into total oblivion in the church buildings and liturgical practice of the modern age. This is the only explanation for the fact that the common direction of prayer of priest and people got labeled as “celebrating towards the wall” or “turning your back on the people” and came to seem absurd and totally unacceptable. And this alone explains why the meal – even in modern pictures – became the normative idea of liturgical celebration for Christians. In reality what happened was that an unprecedented clericalization came on the scene. Now the priest – the “presider,” as they now prefer to call him – becomes the real point of reference for the whole liturgy. Everything depends on him. We have to see him, to respond to him, to be involved in what he is doing. His creativity sustains the whole thing.

"Not surprisingly, people try to reduce this newly created role by assigning all kinds of liturgical functions to different individuals and entrusting the “creative” planning of the liturgy to groups of people who like to, and are supposed to, “make their own contribution.” Less and less is God in the picture. More and more important is what is done by the human beings who meet here and do not like to subject themselves to a “pre-determined pattern.”

“The turning of the priest towards the people has turned the community into a self-enclosed circle. In its outward form, it no longer opens out on what lies ahead and above, but is closed in on itself. The common turning towards the East was not a “celebration towards the wall”; it did not mean that the priest “had his back to the people”: the priest himself was not regarded as so important. For just as the congregation in the synagogue looked together toward Jerusalem, so in the Christian liturgy the congregation looked together “towards the Lord.” As one of the Fathers of Vatican II’s Constitution on the Liturgy, J. A. Jungmann, put it, it was much more a question of priest and people facing in the same direction, knowing that together they were in a procession towards the Lord. They did not close themselves into a circle, they did not gaze at one another, but as the pilgrim People of God they set off for the Oriens , for the Christ who comes to meet us.”
 
And risen dramatically in non western countries. Let’s balance up this argument.

And to say drop in attendance in 2018 is due to to the institution of a Mass in 1965 is quite a stretch, given the west is a group of countries. And given the nature of the 20th century and it’s huge tech, industrial and cultural changes.

Mass attendance in Catholics , who is practising and who is not in any western country is going to be a rich and varied topic.
 
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really? can you prove that? I’d love to see the statistics that prove parishes with only the TLM retain more youth than parishes with the OF.
 
Most people don’t have the time to break down the “…huge tech, industrial and cultural changes.” The radicalism that occurred in the mid 1960s was organized to destroy social norms and to damage the Church from within. Change for the worse was the goal. Water down Church teaching, and in society, go to our neighborhoods and tell young people to have sex with their girlfriends, to smoke dope and other wrong things. We welcomed the strangers but they lied. They were selling us corruption and calling it freedom. Free from what? God and His laws which were meant for our benefit? That’s right - forget mom and dad, forget the Church. I heard a Hippie friend call fornication “performing natural acts.” I was there. At the time, right across from the Wayne State University campus, was a bookstore selling books about Eastern mysticism that had shelves packed from floor to ceiling. Someone put those books there.

 
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I’m disappointed. I spend 30 min developing a scriptural arguement just for you to “address” it with a one line circular arguement. I won’t let you waste more of my time. Good day and God bless.
 
Most people who are making massive unsubstantiated statements like the one you did, about linking Mass attendance in 2018 with 1965 changes, and then omitting the big one, the increase exponentially of mass attendance in non western countries, in 2018 compared to 1965…Really need to take the time on a rainy day, to research it. Otherwise it’s just one person’s opinion in search of pushing and verifying their agenda .

I see you edited your post and rid it of the sentiment
‘Who has time to research their claims’ and actually attempt to substantiate your claim.

Now with your one link, I gather you meant USA, not the entire western world,

So your research will then include peer reviewed findings of why 2018 USA has less practising Catholics then 1965 did.
 
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