Poster "stunned" by Mary's Immaculate Conception

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rr1213 said:
Not that anyone asked me 😉 , but I wish the Church had kept the same silence as to the immaculate conception instead of dogmatically defining the teaching. That removes any ability for a Catholic or potential Catholic to keep his own counsel on the subject.
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The Catholic Church already professed that she was taken up to heaven by her son, Jesus Christ. She (the Church) could not remain silenced (I don’t know why but I believe the Holy Spirit guided the CC to make such proclamation).

Orthodox Christians called it Dormition of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Catholics call this Assumption. Though the title is different it professes that Christians early own believed that Mary was taken “body and soul” into heaven.

In my own personal belief, I believe she did died, but was taken by Jesus up to heaven, which does not contradict the CC statement that Mary, “having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.”

The Dormition of the Theotokos is celebrated on August 15 (August 28 Old Style), the same calendar day as the Roman Catholic Feast of the Assumption of Mary. The Dormition and the Assumption are different names for the same event, Mary’s departure from the earth, although the beliefs are not entirely the same. The Orthodox Church teaches, as a dogma, that Mary died, like any human being, and that she was taken up into heaven on the third day after her repose. The Roman Catholic teaching – consistent with the name of the feast – seems to suggest that she was “assumed” into heaven; the papal decree concerning the Assumption leaves open the question whether, in connection with her departure, Mary underwent death. Both churches agree that she was taken up into heaven bodily.
 
Mannyfit75 said:
The Catholic Church already professed that she was taken up to heaven by her son, Jesus Christ. She (the Church) could not remain silenced (I don’t know why but I believe the Holy Spirit guided the CC to make such proclamation).

Orthodox Christians called it Dormition of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Catholics call this Assumption. Though the title is different it professes that Christians early own believed that Mary was taken “body and soul” into heaven.

In my own personal belief, I believe she did died, but was taken by Jesus up to heaven, which does not contradict the CC statement that Mary, “having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.”

The Dormition of the Theotokos is celebrated on August 15 (August 28 Old Style), the same calendar day as the Roman Catholic Feast of the Assumption of Mary. The Dormition and the Assumption are different names for the same event, Mary’s departure from the earth, although the beliefs are not entirely the same. The Orthodox Church teaches, as a dogma, that Mary died, like any human being, and that she was taken up into heaven on the third day after her repose. The Roman Catholic teaching – consistent with the name of the feast – seems to suggest that she was “assumed” into heaven; the papal decree concerning the Assumption leaves open the question whether, in connection with her departure, Mary underwent death. Both churches agree that she was taken up into heaven bodily.
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Thanks for the explanation. I have no doubt that Mary is there, although bodily is another question.
 
rr1213 said:
Thanks for the explanation. I have no doubt that Mary is there, although bodily is another question.
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That itself is a mystery. If you seek out Christian relics, you will find early Churches have relics of the Apostles, like Peter, James, Mark, Matthew, etc.

Yet, there is no relic or tomb where Mary died. She spend her last days in Ephesus (present day Turkey). To this day, there is no body of Mary. You can also note that there is no body of Jesus Christ either.

To believe in this, requires faith. As a Catholic, I believe everything that the Church teaches in all issues concerning faith and morals. This being the issue of faith is infallible, and I believe Jesus preserved the CC from error since its beginnings, so I know for certain that Mary assumed body and soul into heaven.

If you can prove to me that she did not assumed, then I will change my faith. However, no one can find her body.
 
rr,

If you are curious how I know that Mary spend her last days in Ephesus from this Early Christian Document.

1) A passage in the synodal letter of the Council of Ephesus [111] reads: “Wherefore also Nestorius, the instigator of the impious heresy, when he had come to the city of the Ephesians, where John the Theologian and the Virgin Mother of God St. Mary, estranging himself of his own accord from the gathering of the holy Fathers and Bishops. . .” Since St. John had lived in Ephesus and had been buried there [112], it has been inferred that the ellipsis of the synodal letter means either, “where John. . .and the Virgin. . .Mary lived”, or, “where John. . .and the Virgin. . .Mary lived and are buried”.

There is further explanation.

The first church ever dedicated to Our Lady was built in Ephesus in the second century and Christians had a principle in the early Church that they only built a church in someone’s honor if that person lived and died or was martyred there. When Jesus was dying on the cross he asked his close friend and disciple John to look after his mother, and John also spent time in Ephesus and is buried there. In 431 AD a big council of the Church was held in Ephesus which declared Mary to be the Mother of God. Naturally the council declaring Mary as Mother of God would not have taken place there if they did not believe Mary had been there. Those who visit the house of Mary say they feel the presence of Our Lady there very strongly. Many graces and healings are received there and you can see many crutches left there by people who were miraculously healed there.
 
I thoght the gospels have mary sacrificing doves (the unintentional sin sacrifice).
 
rr1213 said:
I’m sitting here, not sure how to respond to these questions, but let me give it a try… I’ve known for years that Catholics teach that Mary was conceived without original sin. Whenever I stopped to think about the concept (which was not often), my thoughts ran along the line of “ok, this is not something I believe, but I suppose I don’t have a big problem with the concept”. My thoughts on the Assumption of Mary would be similar…that this teaching is not scripturally based, but does not contradict scripture either. (Yes, I know that you find the teachings to be Scriptural).

Then, however, I stumbled across the teaching that Mary was without sin. As I noted in my other post, I was stunned. Truly, truly stunned. I thought that even though I am Protestant (mostly Methodist and Episcopal Churches with brief stays a few other places), I had a respectable understanding of Catholic teaching, but this one caught me totally, absolutely off-guard. It is a matter of faith to me that only one human being, Jesus himself, is without sin. Tempted in all ways, yet still without sin. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, except for Christ. If this is true, as I believe it is, then to say that Mary was without sin is a very serious contradiction. Maybe I’m in a minority and this teaching of the Catholic Church is widely known among other Protestants, but it certainly was not known to me. I don’t know if I would have converted or not (for I do have other areas of disagreement as well), but this one pretty much did it for me.

Since this revelation, I’ve heard and read many Catholic explanations of the teaching and remain unconvinced. I’ve heard of the mud pit, and the Ark of the Covenant, and the argument of appropriateness as opposed to necessity and many others. And I remain unconvinced. Mary is blessed among women for all time, and beyond the end of time, she is a Saint and the Mother of God, but I cannot believe that she was without sin.

To respond to Orion’s questions, do I believe that Mary was conceived without original sin? At this point, no. Jesus was conceived through the action of the Holy Spirit, yes. And, yes, Jesus is fully human and fully God.
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Hi,

Im in the same boat as you. But I didnt even know the CC taught any of this until I came here:eek: I just thought they prayed to her and that we agreed on everything else. I was shocked at all of it. Pretty much because Scripture doesnt mention it. Plus IMHO the attributes that are given to Mary are really only for one person and that is Christ. IMHO the sinlessness of Mary and her being born of a virgin birth as well seriously undermines why Jesus came and what it meant. I do believe Mary had the Holy Spirit in her and that made her righteous but I do not believe it kept her from sinning. I also believe she was a virgin when Christ was conceived in her womb and when Jesus was born.👍 I also believe Mary was an awesome example of how she gave her life completely to the Lord. She was blessed because she completely 100% told God He could use her any way He wanted. She completely submitted to His will for her. IMHO that is why all nations will call her blessed.

I dont know about you but I dont do that on a regular basis:o We should all follow Mary’s example and submit to God’s will for us.👍
 
Mannyfit75 said:
That itself is a mystery. If you seek out Christian relics, you will find early Churches have relics of the Apostles, like Peter, James, Mark, Matthew, etc.

Yet, there is no relic or tomb where Mary died. She spend her last days in Ephesus (present day Turkey). To this day, there is no body of Mary. You can also note that there is no body of Jesus Christ either.

To believe in this, requires faith. As a Catholic, I believe everything that the Church teaches in all issues concerning faith and morals. This being the issue of faith is infallible, and I believe Jesus preserved the CC from error since its beginnings, so I know for certain that Mary assumed body and soul into heaven.

If you can prove to me that she did not assumed, then I will change my faith. However, no one can find her body.
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Hi,

I personally believe God buried her body so no one would know and could not find it. He did the same with Moses. There is a Scripture reference for it I think in Exodus. I think God did this because otherwise people would absolutely worship those sights. Moses was a GREAT MAN and Im sure his followers would worship at his grave. I dare to say people might even do it today. IMHO I think the same would absolutely happen if we knew where Mary was buried. How many catholics here would go to her grave? I bet you every single one and many other religions as well. I might even.😉 God doesnt want us to take our focus off of Christ. By thinking about Moses or Mary other then they were followers of God/Christ and did HIS WILL to me is wrong.😦
 
ALLFORHIM said:
God doesnt want us to take our focus off of Christ. By thinking about Moses or Mary other then they were followers of God/Christ and did HIS WILL to me is wrong.😦
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How does love and respect for one of the God’s children take anything away from God?

Does your father get jealous when someone loves or respects you?

Mary’s immaculate conception, sinlessness, and asumption only reinforce the divinity of Jesus.
 
Mannyfit75 said:
That itself is a mystery. If you seek out Christian relics, you will find early Churches have relics of the Apostles, like Peter, James, Mark, Matthew, etc.

Yet, there is no relic or tomb where Mary died. She spend her last days in Ephesus (present day Turkey). To this day, there is no body of Mary. You can also note that there is no body of Jesus Christ either.

To believe in this, requires faith. As a Catholic, I believe everything that the Church teaches in all issues concerning faith and morals. This being the issue of faith is infallible, and I believe Jesus preserved the CC from error since its beginnings, so I know for certain that Mary assumed body and soul into heaven.

If you can prove to me that she did not assumed, then I will change my faith. However, no one can find her body.
Click to expand...
I agree that it is a matter of faith. At this point, 2000 years later, there is no way to prove as a matter of fact whether Mary was assumed into heaven or not. The absence of a body is not absolute proof because bodies go missing all the time. We don’t know for certain the circumstances of her death, assuming she did die. Nor would finding a body prove anything now. How would you know that it was truly Mary? Doubt would always exist; not like we can do a DNA analysis. So, yes, it is a matter of faith.
 
rr1213 said:
Not that anyone asked me 😉 , but I wish the Church had kept the same silence as to the immaculate conception instead of dogmatically defining the teaching. That removes any ability for a Catholic or potential Catholic to keep his own counsel on the subject.
Click to expand...
I hear you!

Fortunately, when I was still Anglican, I realized that believing in the Immaculate Conception made enough sense that I could accept it if I accepted the authority of the Catholic Church. At that time, my quibble was less with the truth of that dogma than with the idea that it had to be believed with the same degree of faith reserved for the articles of the Creed.

However, in that same Creed I professed to “believe in one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.” Slam dunk.
 
Mannyfit75 said:
rr,

If you are curious how I know that Mary spend her last days in Ephesus from this Early Christian Document.

1) A passage in the synodal letter of the Council of Ephesus [111] reads: “Wherefore also Nestorius, the instigator of the impious heresy, when he had come to the city of the Ephesians, where John the Theologian and the Virgin Mother of God St. Mary, estranging himself of his own accord from the gathering of the holy Fathers and Bishops. . .” Since St. John had lived in Ephesus and had been buried there [112], it has been inferred that the ellipsis of the synodal letter means either, “where John. . .and the Virgin. . .Mary lived”, or, “where John. . .and the Virgin. . .Mary lived and are buried”.

There is further explanation.

The first church ever dedicated to Our Lady was built in Ephesus in the second century and Christians had a principle in the early Church that they only built a church in someone’s honor if that person lived and died or was martyred there. When Jesus was dying on the cross he asked his close friend and disciple John to look after his mother, and John also spent time in Ephesus and is buried there. In 431 AD a big council of the Church was held in Ephesus which declared Mary to be the Mother of God. Naturally the council declaring Mary as Mother of God would not have taken place there if they did not believe Mary had been there. Those who visit the house of Mary say they feel the presence of Our Lady there very strongly. Many graces and healings are received there and you can see many crutches left there by people who were miraculously healed there.
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I had heard that she was thought to have ended her days in Ephesus. I know no reason to doubt that that is not true.
 
mark_a said:
How does love and respect for one of the God’s children take anything away from God?

Does your father get jealous when someone loves or respects you?
Mary’s immaculate conception, sinlessness, and asumption only reinforce the divinity of Jesus.
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Hi, Sorry did this point:o How?
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rr1213 said:
I agree that it is a matter of faith. At this point, 2000 years later, there is no way to prove as a matter of fact whether Mary was assumed into heaven or not. The absence of a body is not absolute proof because bodies go missing all the time. We don’t know for certain the circumstances of her death, assuming she did die. Nor would finding a body prove anything now. How would you know that it was truly Mary? Doubt would always exist; not like we can do a DNA analysis. So, yes, it is a matter of faith.
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The thing is, we don’t have relics that are claimed by the Church (Orthodox or Catholic) to be Mary’s.

We claim to have all the original apostles relics, though.
 
ALLFORHIM said:
Hi,

Im in the same boat as you. But I didnt even know the CC taught any of this until I came here:eek: I just thought they prayed to her and that we agreed on everything else. I was shocked at all of it…

***Yes, see? It wasn’t just me who was shocked by this! 😉 ***

We should all follow Mary’s example and submit to God’s will for us.

***Agreed. I also think that we Protestants do not give Mary the honor she is due because so many of us are afraid of “looking Catholic”. So, to avoid one error (IMHO), we go to far in the other direction and commit another error. ***
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mercygate said:
I hear you!

Fortunately, when I was still Anglican, I realized that believing in the Immaculate Conception made enough sense that I could accept it if I accepted the authority of the Catholic Church. At that time, my quibble was less with the truth of that dogma than with the idea that it had to be believed with the same degree of faith reserved for the articles of the Creed.

However, in that same Creed I professed to “believe in one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.” Slam dunk.
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You make a good point. If you accept that the Catholic Church is what it claims to be, then you’ve given up the right to quibble with subjects that have been dogmatized…or the right of the Catholic Church to dogmatically define a matter.
 
mark_a said:
The thing is, we don’t have relics that are claimed by the Church (Orthodox or Catholic) to be Mary’s.

We claim to have all the original apostles relics, though.
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I understand. This can be said to be supportive of the Catholic position, but it certainly is not conclusive by any means.
 
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rr1213:
Yes I agree. I guess we are afraid of looking too catholic:rolleyes: Oh well, maybe we will bridge the gap.👍 We will take it on our shoulders to do this!!:eek: Ouch my shoulders hurt! LOL
 
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