Poster "stunned" by Mary's Immaculate Conception

[kage_ar]

Hi,
I wish I lived where you do. I live in the Northeast and you can imagine the sin I see and hear about every day of my life. I agree a person can certainly demonstrate being Christ-like. Im sure it is easier depending on where you live. I think if you live away from a major metropolis you have a much better chance. But, the sad fact is that even our thoughts are considered sinful. That is why we are taught in the bible to take captive our thoughts because if we stop that sinful thought it will not get out and potentially hurt anyone else.

Peace

Agreed, much sin is done in secret. I was responding to the idea that had Mary lived a sinless life, her neighbors would have been talking about it. My belief is that from what I see, virtue is not usually “newsworthy” and that there ARE people who do not commit any kind of public sin.

As for where you live, move on over to God’s country

 

[FCEGM]

I thoght the gospels have mary sacrificing doves (the unintentional sin sacrifice).

Valke, you are thinking of Luke 2:22-24. Even though the Blessed Virgin had no need to to make a sacrifice she was - as was her Son - an observant Jew, faithful to the Law. So in fidelity she went with Joseph and the Infant to the Temple to make the prescribed sacrifice. This is similar to her Son undergoing, as a prelude to His public ministry, the baptism of Repentance that His cousin, John the Baptist, preached.

 

[Jaypeeto3]

I personally do not believe that Mary died.
The stories of her death in Jerusalem (with all the apostles except Thomas there with her) come from apocryphal writings and are not inspired scripture, though they may have a grain of truth underlying them.

I do believe that Mary was allowed by God to age and grow “old” (though not feeble), and that when her time came to leave this world, God transformed her lowly natural body into a glorious body and assumed her into heaven as our Mother and Our Queen.

There are no hard-and-fast firsthand accounts of Mary’s assumption, and I tend to look leery at apocryphal accounts, especially the Transitus literature. This literature serves to prove that Christians widely knew of Mary’s assumption, but is not convincing as to it’s reliability regarding the details.

Jaypeeto3 (aka Jaypeeto4)

 

[mozart-250]

I am a recent convert to the Catholic Church. Would someone please explain to me why we even need to be concerned about whether Mary was sinless or not? I don’t see any of that having any bearing on Christ at all. I guess it is nice to believe that Mary was sinless (and I do), but why would it make a difference if she wasn’t?

I’ve sort of wondered that myself.

And why does it make a difference to a Protestant if she is sinless? How does that change your need for salvation? Even Mary needed to be saved from death.

Except that Catholicism states I must believe this is true and have no reason to believe this other than “we say so”.

From the Bible it seems to me you really have to stretch Luke 1:28 to get this.

And every writing from the early church fathers that (at least the earliest that I have read) could also just as easily support a position that is much more Biblically tolerable…that Mary was a woman of exceptional virtue, character and purity. I could even tolerate the notion that the achieved the (Wesleyan) state of entire sanctification in her lifetime. This does not mean that she did not sin once in thought, word, or deed in her entire lifetime…or that she was conceived without original sin.

I have always been curious how Catholicism arrived at this dogma considering the scanty Biblical and patristic support it really has.

 

[Syele]

Why does it bother you that Jesus might have kept Mary from falling into sin? Don’t you hope Jesus keeps you from falling into sin? Don’t we pray for God to keep us from falling into sin? Why do we pray this if we think God can’t do it for us? And if God can do it for us, why couldn’t God have done it for the Virgin Mary?

Of course I would like to be sinless. But am I sinless? IF I never sin again from this day foreward, will I have been sinless? Do I give up on trying to not sin just because I have sinned in the past? If a person sins once when they are young and then never sins again, can God call them Righteous? What if they repented of it? Why does it bother you that Mary might have sinned, been forgiven, and still been highly blessed by God?

It all boils down to …Why did Jesus have to come to earth to die for us? If people could live sinless lives, why was Jesus’ arrival and death even necessary? Why not just have one of the sinless people be sacrificed? Why not just let the sinless people go to Heaven and skip killing the Son of God?

the very act of insisting on Mary *having *to be sinless makes me ask you the same question… I believe God can and does forgive our sins… And if God can do it for us, why couldn’t God have done it for the Virgin Mary?

As far as I can tell, this Doctrine just highlights the fact that Catholics DON"T believe that our sins are completely forgiven. God CAN’T or WON’T do it. He forgives you say, but not completely. Our sins aren’t washed away… they are hidden until they can be purned up in Purgatory. If Mary sinned and was “forgiven” by Catholic theology She’d still have a stain on her like chocolate pudding on my daughter’s shirt… faded but still there until purgatory. In my beliefs God FORGIVES and forgives completely. He’s a loving God that way. This is why Jesus Died for us.

So yes I was stunned at the idea that Mary was sinless when I first heard it. It denies God’s power and/or His love for us. It denies Jesus’ work at the cross. None of the arguments I’ve heard in the time since I learned of this have covered the problems with it. All means most, The Son of God couldn’t be born from an imperfect vessel, etc etc. I don’t buy it.

“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” -Romans 3:10-12

**1 Kings 8:46 **

46 "When they sin against you—for there is no one who does not sin—and you become angry with them and give them over to the enemy, who takes them captive to his own land, far away or near;

The ONLY reason Jesus was an exception is that He is fully God.

Hebrews 7:26

26Such a high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.

Mary was human and therefore, sinned. Even so, we should give honor to her. She was blessed more than any other woman. She was the vehicle of God’s grace in giving Jesus to the world and an example for all to follow. Her faith was absolutely amazing!

My saying she sinned dosn’t mean I think she went around sinning constantly or that she didn’t live a Godly life.

 

[Jennifer123]

How does love and respect for one of the God’s children take anything away from God?

Does your father get jealous when someone loves or respects you?

Mary’s immaculate conception, sinlessness, and asumption only reinforce the divinity of Jesus.

:yup:

Are you also offended when someone tells you your kids are lovely and well-mannered? Do you feel it takes any rightful attention from you as the parent? Would it make you feel resentful that you weren’t given your due for your hard work?

Of course not. God delights in us feeling as family, whether we are in Heaven alive in Him, or here on Earth, alive in Him. Of course we love and worship Jesus as Lord of All, but we also embrace His family as our own. As He would have it.

 

[VociMike]

I am a recent convert to the Catholic Church. Would someone please explain to me why we even need to be concerned about whether Mary was sinless or not? I don’t see any of that having any bearing on Christ at all.

If Mary was a sinner than she was, like all of us, a corrupt, damaged human being. She was, like all of us, less than fully human, for sin makes us less than God made us to be.

Jesus united God and humanity fully and perfectly within Himself. And His humanity came from one source, which was Mary. Could He have fully and perfectly united God and humanity if His own humanity derived from imperfect humanity?

Mary’s being prevented from being born in sin, and her sinless life, are the perfect example of God’s grace and man’s (woman’s!) choice to accept that grace, and to thus be the human person that God intended for each of us to be. Mary is our example of how much God desires to exalt each of us, and how serious He is about the perfect union of God and humanity in the Incarnation.

That Protestants can skip over such signs of God’s love for us, and focus obsessively on “all have sinned!”, is truly a great loss for them.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I personally do not believe that Mary died.
The stories of her death in Jerusalem (with all the apostles except Thomas there with her) come from apocryphal writings and are not inspired scripture, though they may have a grain of truth underlying them.

I do believe that Mary was allowed by God to age and grow “old” (though not feeble), and that when her time came to leave this world, God transformed her lowly natural body into a glorious body and assumed her into heaven as our Mother and Our Queen.

There are no hard-and-fast firsthand accounts of Mary’s assumption, and I tend to look leery at apocryphal accounts, especially the Transitus literature. This literature serves to prove that Christians widely knew of Mary’s assumption, but is not convincing as to it’s reliability regarding the details.

Jaypeeto3 (aka Jaypeeto4)

Hi,
Are you sure your catholic. You sound an awful lot like a protestant.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Of course I would like to be sinless. But am I sinless? IF I never sin again from this day foreward, will I have been sinless? Do I give up on trying to not sin just because I have sinned in the past? If a person sins once when they are young and then never sins again, can God call them Righteous? What if they repented of it? Why does it bother you that Mary might have sinned, been forgiven, and still been highly blessed by God?

It all boils down to …Why did Jesus have to come to earth to die for us? If people could live sinless lives, why was Jesus’ arrival and death even necessary? Why not just have one of the sinless people be sacrificed? Why not just let the sinless people go to Heaven and skip killing the Son of God?

the very act of insisting on Mary *having *to be sinless makes me ask you the same question… I believe God can and does forgive our sins… And if God can do it for us, why couldn’t God have done it for the Virgin Mary?

As far as I can tell, this Doctrine just highlights the fact that Catholics DON"T believe that our sins are completely forgiven. God CAN’T or WON’T do it. He forgives you say, but not completely. Our sins aren’t washed away… they are hidden until they can be purned up in Purgatory. If Mary sinned and was “forgiven” by Catholic theology She’d still have a stain on her like chocolate pudding on my daughter’s shirt… faded but still there until purgatory. In my beliefs God FORGIVES and forgives completely. He’s a loving God that way. This is why Jesus Died for us.

So yes I was stunned at the idea that Mary was sinless when I first heard it. It denies God’s power and/or His love for us. It denies Jesus’ work at the cross. None of the arguments I’ve heard in the time since I learned of this have covered the problems with it. All means most, The Son of God couldn’t be born from an imperfect vessel, etc etc. I don’t buy it.

The ONLY reason Jesus was an exception is that He is fully God.

Mary was human and therefore, sinned. Even so, we should give honor to her. She was blessed more than any other woman. She was the vehicle of God’s grace in giving Jesus to the world and an example for all to follow. Her faith was absolutely amazing!

My saying she sinned dosn’t mean I think she went around sinning constantly or that she didn’t live a Godly life.

Hi,
:clapping: :tiphat:

 

[Orionthehunter]

From Syele: As far as I can tell, this Doctrine just highlights the fact that Catholics DON"T believe that our sins are completely forgiven. God CAN’T or WON’T do it. He forgives you say, but not completely. Our sins aren’t washed away… they are hidden until they can be purned up in Purgatory. If Mary sinned and was “forgiven” by Catholic theology She’d still have a stain on her like chocolate pudding on my daughter’s shirt… faded but still there until purgatory. In my beliefs God FORGIVES and forgives completely. He’s a loving God that way. This is why Jesus Died for us.

Huh? Well, as far as I can tell, it is obvious that you don’t have a very good understanding of what the Church teaches regarding forgiveness nor purgatory nor the concept of “stain.”

And, I know that we’ve tried to explain these concepts to you in other threads so it is fruitless to hijack this thread with any idea that you will understand (and I don’t mean accept but just to understand what the Church teaches).

From Syele: So yes I was stunned at the idea that Mary was sinless when I first heard it. It denies God’s power and/or His love for us. It denies Jesus’ work at the cross.

Again, a poor understanding of the Doctrine. It denies nothing but proves it. You may not accept the Teaching which is your perogative. But you have no right to misrepresent it.

From Syele: None of the arguments I’ve heard in the time since I learned of this have covered the problems with it. All means most, The Son of God couldn’t be born from an imperfect vessel, etc etc. I don’t buy it.

Your perogative as you are your own magisterium.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

So yes I was stunned at the idea that Mary was sinless when I first heard it. It denies God’s power and/or His love for us. It denies Jesus’ work at the cross. None of the arguments I’ve heard in the time since I learned of this have covered the problems with it. All means most, The Son of God couldn’t be born from an imperfect vessel, etc etc. I don’t buy it.

I was stunned also. I grew up in a Protestant Christian family and read the Bible all my life. I colaborated with Roman Catholics and prayed with them. And when I heard about this, that Mary is viewed as having been sinless, I felt, in a way, deceived. This happened about 5 years ago. I have recovered since.

 

[VociMike]

I was stunned also. I grew up in a Protestant Christian family and read the Bible all my life. I colaborated with Roman Catholics and prayed with them. And when I heard about this, that Mary is viewed as having been sinless, I felt, in a way, deceived. This happened about 5 years ago. I have recovered since.

This seeming horror at the very thought of a sinless human being is just odd beyond words.

 

[rr1213]

Jesus united God and humanity fully and perfectly within Himself. And His humanity came from one source, which was Mary. Could He have fully and perfectly united God and humanity if His own humanity derived from imperfect humanity?

Yes, absolutely, he is God. He is sovereign and can act miraculously, including being born totally sinless from an imperfect woman. If the people did not praise him, the stones themselves would rise up and praise God. If God can create sons of Abraham from stones, he can do this.

The question is not whether God can, but whether God did.

 

[Syele]

Huh? Well, as far as I can tell, it is obvious that you don’t have a very good understanding of what the Church teaches regarding forgiveness nor purgatory nor the concept of “stain.”

And, I know that we’ve tried to explain these concepts to you in other threads so it is fruitless to hijack this thread with any idea that you will understand (and I don’t mean accept but just to understand what the Church teaches).

You didn’t answer any of my questions. You just announced I don’t understand. Why is it that when I strongly disagree with anything Catholic someone has to annouce it’s that I don’t understand. It’s highly annoying. Perhaps I DO understand and think you are drastically wrong? Could that be possible?

What is forgiveness then? Why couldn’t Mary have carried Jesus if she has sinned once and been forgiven of it already? Why is God capable of making her sinless but not capable of making her able to carry the Son of God when she had sinned and been forgiven? Why did Jesus have to come to earth to die for us? If people could live sinless lives, why was Jesus’ arrival and death even necessary? Why not just have one of the sinless people be sacrificed? Why not just let the sinless people go to Heaven and skip killing the Son of God?

Your perogative as you are your own magisterium.

Or is it that you don’t know the answers so you intend to simply attack me rather than my comments? This thread is on why Protestants are “stunned” about this. I told you what most protestants would think… including myself. If you want us all to stop being “stunned” try answering questions instead of attacking people. The magisterium is not the topic of this thread.

 

[VociMike]

Yes, absolutely, he is God. He is sovereign and can act miraculously, including being born totally sinless from an imperfect woman. If the people did not praise him, the stones themselves would rise up and praise God. If God can create sons of Abraham from stones, he can do this.

The question is not whether God can, but whether God did.

God can do anything He chooses, but He always chooses to do things in a fitting way. And it was only fitting that Jesus derive His humanity from a perfect human mother, just as He derived His divinity from a perfect divine Father. The miraculous method you propose would have been possible, but it would not have been fitting. It would have cast grave doubts about the competeness of the Incarnation.

I know this won’t convince you, but I am writing for other readers as much as for you.

 

[rr1213]

This seeming horror at the very thought of a sinless human being is just odd beyond words.

No doubt it is odd from the Catholic perspective. If I may take a chance here, assume for a moment that you are a devout Protestant for all of your life. You take your faith seriously. You believe as an article of faith that mankind is corrupted by the Fall. You believe as an article of faith that “all have sinned”. You believe that Christ, our redeemer, is the only human being who has never sinned. You believe that Christ is fully man, yet fully human, and is the perfect human being, the new Adam.

Now, you find out that the largest body of Christians on the world believe something different…that Mary also never sinned. This is a paradigm shift, a totally new and totally foreign concept to your entire faith existence. Yes, I think that you would be stunned. As Protestants, if we are to understand Catholics, we need to put ourselves in your shoes and try to think and experience our faith as you do. If you are to understand Protestants, you need to do the same thing I think.

 

[rr1213]

God can do anything He chooses, but He always chooses to do things in a fitting way. And it was only fitting that Jesus derive His humanity from a perfect human mother, just as He derived His divinity from a perfect divine Father. The miraculous method you propose would have been possible, but it would not have been fitting. It would have cast grave doubts about the competeness of the Incarnation.

I know this won’t convince you, but I am writing for other readers as much as for you.

Fair enough, but the method you believe that God chose as most fitting is no less miraculous than what I suggested. In fact, I think it is more so.

 

[Orionthehunter]

This seeming horror at the very thought of a sinless human being is just odd beyond words.

Actually, I understand the reluctance of one to accept this or the challenges to struggle with it. I think that AllforHiim did a good job of articulating it with a very good response by Kage_ar. The Holy Spirit is who can change hearts and minds if one opens them up to the message.

Yes, absolutely, he is God. He is sovereign and can act miraculously, including being born totally sinless from an imperfect woman. If the people did not praise him, the stones themselves would rise up and praise God. If God can create sons of Abraham from stones, he can do this.

The question is not whether God can, but whether God did.

And a very good question. I accept the Teaching that God did. I accept it as I accept the attributed Scriptural references to Mary (esp. OT) and the logic as presented in this thread and other documents of I’ve read. I also accept it in humility and obedience to the Church in her Christ-commissioned role as steward of the Deposit of Faith and Truth.

For me, as I examine the alternative (to which you ascribe), I reject it not because it isn’t possible but because it changes the nature of what I believe about the Incarnation, principally fully human and fully God. And in my mind this change isn’t merely an intellectual exercise but denigrates the Incarnation.

RR, we can agree to disagree. Your sincerity is palpable and ultimately, I’m confident that if the Holy Spirit discerns that you need to be opened up to this Truth, He will make a very diligent effort and I pray your heart is open when He raises His voice beyond a whisper.

 

[VociMike]

No doubt it is odd from the Catholic perspective. If I may take a chance here, assume for a moment that you are a devout Protestant for all of your life. You take your faith seriously. You believe as an article of faith that mankind is corrupted by the Fall. You believe as an article of faith that “all have sinned”. You believe that Christ, our redeemer, is the only human being who has never sinned. You believe that Christ is fully man, yet fully human, and is the perfect human being, the new Adam.

Now, you find out that the largest body of Christians on the world believe something different…that Mary also never sinned. This is a paradigm shift, a totally new and totally foreign concept to your entire faith existence. Yes, I think that you would be stunned. As Protestants, if we are to understand Catholics, we need to put ourselves in your shoes and try to think and experience our faith as you do. If you are to understand Protestants, you need to do the same thing I think.

That’s a fair and respectful response. I guess I can only sigh at how much Christian understanding, believed by the entire Christian world before 1500, has been lost.

And why, I must ask, do Protestants take as an article of faith that “all have sinned” when it is so manifest that not all have sinned?

 

[rr1213]

RR, we can agree to disagree. Your sincerity is palpable and ultimately, I’m confident that if the Holy Spirit discerns that you need to be opened up to this Truth, He will make a very diligent effort and I pray your heart is open when He raises His voice beyond a whisper.

Well, thank you for these kind comments and I very much appreciate your prayers. We’ll see what the future holds…