M
- Status
R
rr1213
Guest
Agreed.
Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”
“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”
Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
M
MrS
Guest
Then perhaps we can agree that to just state “I believe” is not enough (…"…not everyone who says Lord, Lord…"
If you look at the verse that tells us we should believe… and then read a few more verses… we learn the opposite of believe… “… those who disobey…”
Believe means obey.
There is much we must obey.
Non-Catholics simply are not taught to consider all that they must obey. Thus they wander looking for answers that are only found in the Fullness of the Faith found only in the Catholic Church. They don’t know what they don’t have.
Sadly, too many Catholics, already inside the Church, don’t know what they do have.
M
MrS
Guest
Agreed… and can we agree that it does NOT say:
“…to enter the Kingdom of God, one only need to be born of water and the Spirit…”
Being a Catholic is one of the hardest things to do… we have so much, and therefore so much is expected of us.
.
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
I would add that being a born again christian is very difficult.
Only by the Grace of God
M
MrS
Guest
It will only become more difficult when you see what the Catholic Church really is… and then realize you must come home… I can only imagine the difficulties it causes in family, Church, and friends.I would add that being a born again christian is very difficult.
Two of my sons are very active Baptists… one is even in class to “become a preacher”. I encourage them continually to search for the Truth where ever it leads thems… And one son is already in a quiet, withdrawn state when religion is the subject. His questions, like yours, indicate a true searching. I think he is at last seeing that his beliefs are so lacking in fullness from what they could be. He is facinated by my love of Adoration… maybe someday the Eucharist will be his real strength as it is mine.
.
B
believers
Guest
Living Bread = Flesh of Jesus (John 6:51)
Flesh of Jesus = Meat (John 6:55)
Meat = “to do the will of God, and to finish His work.” (John 4:34)
Work of God = “believe on Him whom He hath sent.” (John 6:28-29)
Living Bread = NOT AS YOUR FATHERS DID EAT MANNA, AND ARE DEAD (John 6:58)
Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Jhn 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Jhn 4:34
Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
Jhn 6:28
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jhn 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jhn 6:58
This is that bread which came down from heaven: NOT AS YOUR FATHERS DID EAT MANNA, AND ARE DEAD: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Living Bread = Flesh of Jesus (John 6:51)
Flesh of Jesus = Meat (John 6:55)
Meat = “to do the will of God, and to finish His work.” (John 4:34)
Work of God = “believe on Him he hath sent.” (John 6:28)
Living Bread = NOT AS YOUR FATHERS DID EAT MANNA, AND ARE DEAD (John 6:58)
M
MrS
Guest
Let’s see what the Early Church itself had to say about John 4:34:
- In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat. 32. But he said to them, I have meat to eat that you know not of. 33. Therefore said the disciples one to another, Has any man brought him ought to eat? 34. Jesus said to them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
CHRYS. They all ask Him at once, Him so fatigued with the journey and heat. This is not impatience in them, but simply love, and tenderness to their Master.
ORIGEN. They think the present time convenient for dining; it being after the departure of the woman to the city, and before the coming of the Samaritans; so that they sit at meat by themselves. This explains, In the mean while.
THEOPHYL. Our Lord, knowing that the woman of Samaria was bringing the whole town out to Him, tells His disciples, I have meat that you know not of:
CHRYS. The salvation of men He calls His food, showing His great desire that we should be saved. As food is an object of desire to us, so was the salvation of men to Him. Observe, He does not express Himself directly, but figuratively; which makes some trouble necessary for His hearers, in order to comprehend His meaning, and thus gives a greater importance to that meaning when it is understood.
THEOPHYL. That you know not of; i.e. know not that I call the salvation of men food; or, know not that the Samaritans are about to believe and be saved. The disciples however were in perplexity: Therefore said the disciples one to another, Has any man brought Him ought to eat?
AUGUSTINE. What wonder that the woman did not understand about the water? Lo, the disciples do not understand about the meat.
CHRYS. They show, as usual, the honor and reverence in which they hold their Master, by talking among themselves, and not presuming to question Him.
CONTINUED:
M
MrS
Guest
CONTINUES:
THEOPHYL. From the question of the disciples, Has any man brought Him ought to eat, we may infer that our Lord was accustomed to receive food from others, when it was offered Him: not that He who gives food to all flesh, needed any assistance; but He received it, that they who gave it might obtain their reward, and that poverty thenceforth might not blush, nor the support of others be esteemed a disgrace. It is proper and necessary that teachers should depend on others to provide them with food, in order that, being free from all other cares, they may attend the more to the ministry of the word.
AUG. Our Lord heard His doubting disciples, and answered them as disciples, i.e. plainly and expressly, not circuitously, as He answered the women; Jesus said to them, My meat is to do the will of Him that sent Me.
ORIGEN. Fit meat for the Son of God, who was so obedient to the Father, that in Him was the same will that was in the Father: not two wills, but one will in both. The Son is capable of first accomplishing the whole will of the Father. Other saints do nothing against the Father’s will; He does that will. That is His meat in an especial sense. And what means, To finish His work? It would seem easy to say, that a work was what was ordered by him who set it; as where men are set to build or dig. But some who go deeper ask whether a work being finished does not imply that it was before incomplete; and whether God could originally have made an incomplete work? The completing of the work, is the completing of a rational creature: for it was to complete this work, which was as yet imperfect, that the Word made flesh come.
THEOPHYL. He finished the work of God, i.e. man, He, the Son of God, finished it by exhibiting our nature in Himself without sin, perfect and uncorrupt. He finished also the work of God, i.e. the Law, (for Christ is the end of the Law,) by abolishing it, when every thing in it had been fulfilled, and changing a carnal into a spiritual worship.
ORIGEN. The matter of spiritual drink and living water being explained, the subject of meat follows. Jesus had asked the woman of Samaria, and she could give Him none good enough. Then came the disciples, having procured some humble food among the people of the country, and offered it Him, beseeching Him to eat. They fear perhaps lest the Word of God, deprived of His own proper nourishment, fail within them; and therefore with such as they have found, immediately propose to feed Him, that being confirmed and strengthened, He may abide with His nourishers. Souls require food as well as bodies. And as bodies require different kinds of it, and in different quantities, so is it in things which are above the body. Souls differ in capacity, and one needs more nourishment, another less. So too in point of quality, the same nourishment of words and thoughts does not suit all. Infants just born need the milk of the word; the grown up, solid meat. Our Lord says, I have meat to eat. For one who is over the weak who cannot behold the same things with the stronger, may always speak thus.
THEOPHYL. From the question of the disciples, Has any man brought Him ought to eat, we may infer that our Lord was accustomed to receive food from others, when it was offered Him: not that He who gives food to all flesh, needed any assistance; but He received it, that they who gave it might obtain their reward, and that poverty thenceforth might not blush, nor the support of others be esteemed a disgrace. It is proper and necessary that teachers should depend on others to provide them with food, in order that, being free from all other cares, they may attend the more to the ministry of the word.
AUG. Our Lord heard His doubting disciples, and answered them as disciples, i.e. plainly and expressly, not circuitously, as He answered the women; Jesus said to them, My meat is to do the will of Him that sent Me.
ORIGEN. Fit meat for the Son of God, who was so obedient to the Father, that in Him was the same will that was in the Father: not two wills, but one will in both. The Son is capable of first accomplishing the whole will of the Father. Other saints do nothing against the Father’s will; He does that will. That is His meat in an especial sense. And what means, To finish His work? It would seem easy to say, that a work was what was ordered by him who set it; as where men are set to build or dig. But some who go deeper ask whether a work being finished does not imply that it was before incomplete; and whether God could originally have made an incomplete work? The completing of the work, is the completing of a rational creature: for it was to complete this work, which was as yet imperfect, that the Word made flesh come.
THEOPHYL. He finished the work of God, i.e. man, He, the Son of God, finished it by exhibiting our nature in Himself without sin, perfect and uncorrupt. He finished also the work of God, i.e. the Law, (for Christ is the end of the Law,) by abolishing it, when every thing in it had been fulfilled, and changing a carnal into a spiritual worship.
ORIGEN. The matter of spiritual drink and living water being explained, the subject of meat follows. Jesus had asked the woman of Samaria, and she could give Him none good enough. Then came the disciples, having procured some humble food among the people of the country, and offered it Him, beseeching Him to eat. They fear perhaps lest the Word of God, deprived of His own proper nourishment, fail within them; and therefore with such as they have found, immediately propose to feed Him, that being confirmed and strengthened, He may abide with His nourishers. Souls require food as well as bodies. And as bodies require different kinds of it, and in different quantities, so is it in things which are above the body. Souls differ in capacity, and one needs more nourishment, another less. So too in point of quality, the same nourishment of words and thoughts does not suit all. Infants just born need the milk of the word; the grown up, solid meat. Our Lord says, I have meat to eat. For one who is over the weak who cannot behold the same things with the stronger, may always speak thus.
M
MrS
Guest
That is a good choice only if you understand that believe means obey… it is scriptural… and if you don’t believe EVERYTHING that Jesus said, you don’t believe in Jesus.
The Apostles were the first of the Early Church Fathers… and yes they are to be believed, as are those who were taught by them… and on down to today… the only continuing link back to the Truth (Jesus Christ) which there is.
Free will allows each of us to take it or leave it.
M
MrS
Guest
and now back to the topic…
until another poster chooses to derail the topic
until another poster chooses to derail the topic
D
Della
Guest
The releasing of angst and anxiety isn’t the same thing as warm affection. And I should know as I was a member of the Assemblies of God for 20 years.Hi, How do you explain those crazy charismatic protestants that are full of warm emotions:thumbsup:
But, my original point, which has seemingly been forgotten, is that personal bias, on anyone’s part, doesn’t equate as “proof” that what another is doing as veneration or devotion or adoration (which are each different things) is bad or wrong.
And simply because a person has not been properly taught a doctrine or dogma and so finds it hard to believe or understand doesn’t equate to “proof” that it is invalid, either.
I challenge all those who only know what they think they know about the teachings of the Catholic Church to explore them with an open heart and mind, taking into account that fact that these things have been believed for centuries by the vast majority of Christians around the world, and that doubts about them are quite a recent development.
J
jmcrae
Guest
So, if the original followers of Jesus say something you agree with or if they write something that happens to end up in the Bible, they’re “Holy Spirit inspired,” but if they say something you disagree with, they’re “preaching man’s doctrine?”
Got it.
Now all I need to know is your interpretation of everything, because if I follow those clueless Apostles, etc., I’ll be led astray into man’s doctrines. And we certainly wouldn’t want that. would we?
Oh, wait - you might be a man, too.
HMMM, gotta figure this one out all over again.
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
Your Holy Spirit must be different than Ours because you don’t believe in Church authority, guided by the Holy Spirit, and made it clear the Mary is the Immaculate Conception.
Even the Scripture Supports it.
II. Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant
Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God’s Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.
2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.
1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.
1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.
Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke’s conspicuous comparison’s between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.
Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.
Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.
Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.
Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the “woman” clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.
Rev 12:1 - the “woman” that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.
Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary’s offspring are those who keep God’s commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.
Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary’s offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.
Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.
Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.
Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.
Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.
Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.
Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.
Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
believers is just a man. He has no authority at all compared to the Church, whom Christ founded.So, if the original followers of Jesus say something you agree with or if they write something that happens to end up in the Bible, they’re “Holy Spirit inspired,” but if they say something you disagree with, they’re “preaching man’s doctrine?”
Got it.
Now all I need to know is your interpretation of everything, because if I follow those clueless Apostles, etc., I’ll be led astray into man’s doctrines. And we certainly wouldn’t want that. would we?
Oh, wait - you might be a man, too.
HMMM, gotta figure this one out all over again.
A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
Yes I agree that is why I am here to learn about the CC.The releasing of angst and anxiety isn’t the same thing as warm affection. And I should know as I was a member of the Assemblies of God for 20 years.
J
jmcrae
Guest
Dang, just when I thought I’d found the real spokesman of the Holy Spirit.
Oh, wait, that’s the Church, and I’m already here.
B
believers
Guest
If it’s in the Bible, it is inspired by the Holy Spirit. If it isn’t, then it’s man’s word.So, if the original followers of Jesus say something you agree with or if they write something that happens to end up in the Bible, they’re “Holy Spirit inspired,” but if they say something you disagree with, they’re “preaching man’s doctrine?”
Got it.
Now all I need to know is your interpretation of everything, because if I follow those clueless Apostles, etc., I’ll be led astray into man’s doctrines. And we certainly wouldn’t want that. would we?
Oh, wait - you might be a man, too.
HMMM, gotta figure this one out all over again.
- Status