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Bernward
Guest
Hi didymus, thanks for posting this,
Fantastic - ‘Missionary material…is not a religious issue !!’ That clarifies a good many things from that part of the world, you’ve made my day,
God bless,
Fantastic - ‘Missionary material…is not a religious issue !!’ That clarifies a good many things from that part of the world, you’ve made my day,
God bless,
S
seekerz
Guest
It’s the conclusion I find interesting:
I’d have to agree with that position. Had a similar discussion today on a different topic but with the same principle: is it reasonable to make decisions of conscience in your job that conflict with customers rights, when the exercise of those rights does not directly involve you? Direct involvement would be reading the bible or attending bible study with the recipients. When they are placed in the mailboxes, these bibles could get read or could get thrown out: none of the mailmen’s business.
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MacBP
Guest
Be very careful, and remember that Catholics in the US are currently fighting for the right to make a decision of conscience.
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Cristiano
Guest
I think that the way we look at it might be different from the way they look at it. I think that when they say it is not a religious issue they might say that it is Halacha and not Aggadah.
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Cristiano
Guest
I agree with that position too in regard to the Postal Office duties. If it is legal you have to find a way to deliver it. However, I find it fundamentally wrong that they force someone to act against his religious beliefs. In the past Jews hired gentiles to do servile work on the Sabbath in this way they could observe the law and still getting things done, if they were allowed to use such methods in the past I think that they could find a similar solution now.
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EmperorNapoleon
Guest
It is an interesting legal situation. They are legally required to distribute all mail however the material in question may be regarded or treated as illegal by the government of Israel. According to the State Department:
“Proselytizing is legal in the country, and missionaries of all religious groups are allowed to proselytize all citizens. A 1977 law prohibits any person from offering material benefits as an inducement to conversion. It is also illegal to convert persons under 18 years of age unless one parent is an adherent of the religious group seeking to convert the minor. Despite the legality of proselytism, the government has taken a number of steps that discouraged proselytizing and encouraged the popular perception that it is illegal. For example the MOI detained individuals suspected of being “missionaries” upon arrival at the airport and required such persons to post bail and pledge to abstain from missionary activity. At times government officials have also refused people they perceived as missionaries entry into the country. It maintained denunciations of missionary activity from anti-missionary groups like Yad L’Achim in its border control databases. The Interior Ministry has also cited proselytism as a reason to deny student, work, and religious visa extensions, as well as to deny permanent residency petitions.”
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pnewton
Guest
Israel has a law against religious materials??? John Hagee supports this country why? I guess the Bible will have to be wrapped up like porn or sent underground in countries like Israel and Iran.
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EmperorNapoleon
Guest
Israel has laws against how religious materials are distributed not against the materials themselves. Sending unsolicited religious materials through the mail may be a violation of the law. Israel has a history of Christian missionaries attempting to force the delivery of unsolicited religious materials. In fact, a similar situation arose in January when a missionary group attempted to send religious pamphlets through the mail. The local postal service refused to deliver them and the residents of the entire town signed a document refusing to accept the pamphlets but the missionary group threatened to sue and essentially force people to receive their religious material.
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Kaninchen
Guest
I expect they need to add such things to their unsolicited advertising legislation.
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seekerz
Guest
Exactly. These are two different issues: is the material legal, and can the postal worker refuse to deliver them.
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seekerz
Guest
I think that in the real world, exceptions to doing one’s job are mainly determined by how much clout one party has versus the other. Can’t really see any justification for objecting to the contents of someone else’s mail, but maybe that’s just me.
I just think these things can be taken to illogical extremes: maybe pilots could object to carrying Christian missionaries to their country, maybe trash collectors could object to servicing areas where they object to people’s dietary habits, maybe employees of electricity companies could object to enabling services to certain printing presses or restaurants or nightclubs…I don’t see a logical end to exceptions of this nature. A job is a job, once it is not involving you directly in acts against your conscience, do your job.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
On the other hand . . . it would appear that there’s been something of an evangelistic push going on recently and postal workers would bear the brunt of people’s anger.
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unafraid
Guest
This brings to mind how incredulous I was when I read statements from the bombastic Abe Foxman, chief operative for the ADL, in which he decried the entire New Testament as being an anti-semitic tract that should be banned. I remember reading this in stunned disbelief.
Well, maybe I shouldn’t have been quite so shocked. Maybe Abe was just echoing a much more broadly held misconception of his people. Pity.
Well, maybe I shouldn’t have been quite so shocked. Maybe Abe was just echoing a much more broadly held misconception of his people. Pity.
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Kaninchen
Guest
I can understand Christians taking umbrage about people getting cross about their evangelistic undertakings but I do wonder what the response would be if, for example, Muslims decided that the thing they wanted most was to convert the Irish to Islam and did so with the same enthusiasm and means some people seem to use in trying to convert Israeli Jews to Christianity.
It would be 'Way to go, Irish Postal Workers!"
It would be 'Way to go, Irish Postal Workers!"
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pnewton
Guest
I understand and support what the postmen are doing, I just don’t understand such a law. I get unsolicited mail all the time. I throw it in the trash and move on. Is Israel so insecure in their Faith they enforce such laws?
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Kaninchen
Guest
Why would one assume that, out of the many reasons that people don’t want to be bombarded by evangelicals and evangelical texts, insecurity of faith would be the reason?
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pnewton
Guest
I would agree 100% if all unsolicited mail was forbidden and not just one thing.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Hm, like most people I think the minimum sentence for the people behind automated sales calls should be boiling in oil. Doesn’t mean I want to end all sales calls.
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chosen_people
Guest
Israel has laws that protect freedom of religion and the freedom to practice religion and which make it a criminal offence to damage religious artifacts or even to disparage another religion.
As far as proselytism of Jews, while Judaism holds that it is easier for a Gentile to get into the world to come than for the Jew, as they have only to follow the seven Noahide commandments, any Jew who adopts the concept of the Christian god, is caught off forever from God and the Jewish people.
It should also be remembered that thousands upon thousands of Jews have been murdered to the cry of rampaging Christian mobs shouting “convert or die”, thousands upon thousands of Jews have been forced converted, the Christian scriptures have painted us as “Christ Killers” as “the spawn of the devil”. Christianity placed us in wretched ghettos, burned and banned the Talmud, made us wear special clothing marking us a Jews, forced us to attend lectures on Christianity on our Sabbath, passed laws that made conversion of a Christian by a Jew punishable by death, denied Jews the basic rights for education, employment, any and all social interaction, denied us equality under law. Despite the Vatican position, we Jews remained convinced that the Shoah was indeed the result of two thousand years of anti-Semitism and religious persecution.
However, Israel, the Jewish state, is a democratic state dedicated to religious freedom. We are flooded with Christian missionaries whose sole goal is making Jews into non-Jews. Non the less, the only restrictions on proselytism of Jews, despite everything, is to not allow proselytism of minors and to not allow monetary compensation to convince people to convert.
As far as proselytism of Jews, while Judaism holds that it is easier for a Gentile to get into the world to come than for the Jew, as they have only to follow the seven Noahide commandments, any Jew who adopts the concept of the Christian god, is caught off forever from God and the Jewish people.
It should also be remembered that thousands upon thousands of Jews have been murdered to the cry of rampaging Christian mobs shouting “convert or die”, thousands upon thousands of Jews have been forced converted, the Christian scriptures have painted us as “Christ Killers” as “the spawn of the devil”. Christianity placed us in wretched ghettos, burned and banned the Talmud, made us wear special clothing marking us a Jews, forced us to attend lectures on Christianity on our Sabbath, passed laws that made conversion of a Christian by a Jew punishable by death, denied Jews the basic rights for education, employment, any and all social interaction, denied us equality under law. Despite the Vatican position, we Jews remained convinced that the Shoah was indeed the result of two thousand years of anti-Semitism and religious persecution.
However, Israel, the Jewish state, is a democratic state dedicated to religious freedom. We are flooded with Christian missionaries whose sole goal is making Jews into non-Jews. Non the less, the only restrictions on proselytism of Jews, despite everything, is to not allow proselytism of minors and to not allow monetary compensation to convince people to convert.
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