Postpone Move To Beatify Pius Xii, Israeli Envoy Suggests

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Oh boy…guys can you BOTH behave?
Lets stop the name calling etc. and move back to what the original topic 😃
What name calling have I made, Karin? It’s all one sided, and I’ve reported it to Walt Oliver. I’ll let him handle it.
 
AN official of the Vatican Congregation for the Causes of Saints has chastised Israeli ambassador Oded Ben Hur for suggesting that the Church should delay the cause for beatification of Pope Pius XII. *
Father Peter Gumpel, SJ,
said that the Israeli envoy had been “totally irresponsible” to suggest that the cause should be delayed because of complaints that the former Pope did not take action to stop the Holocaust**. Oded Ben Hur made his remarks in comments to reporters in Rome on October 26. *
ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=72711
 
AN official of the Vatican Congregation for the Causes of Saints has chastised Israeli ambassador Oded Ben Hur for suggesting that the Church should delay the cause for beatification of Pope Pius XII. *
Father Peter Gumpel, SJ,
said that the Israeli envoy had been “totally irresponsible” to suggest that the cause should be delayed because of complaints that the former Pope did not take action to stop the Holocaust***. Oded Ben Hur made his remarks in comments to reporters in Rome on October 26.
ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=72711
No kidding. I’d rather persecuted than having a diplomat tell us what to do and how to live our faith. The nerve of some people.
 
Karin, it’s just that I get really angry when people insult my heroes like that.
 
Karin, it’s just that I get really angry when people insult my heroes like that.
I do understand Bones…I really do.
May I suggest that you keep these people that insult our Church and its Saints in your prayers:)
 
If Pope Pius XII is a true saint (already in heaven), then delaying his canonization a few years won’t hurt him. Let people examine the record; then proceed with the canonization. However, I do believe, like most people here, that it is about time for non-Catholics to stay out of our internal affairs. I don’t think that canonization should be delayed a century more such that people are deprived of the opportunity to ask him to intercess to God for us.
And you know what’s funny? The U.N. and MSM have accused the Vatican of human rights violations. Interesting isn’t it. First the Vatican is told what saints they can canonize and then they’re lectured about human rights. God help us. One day, I predict that we will go to concentration camps for being Catholic. Because we will be accused of “radical religious extremism” all part of the culture of death and the “religion” of the 21st century.
 
And you know what’s funny? The U.N. and MSM have accused the Vatican of human rights violations. Interesting isn’t it. First the Vatican is told what saints they can canonize and then they’re lectured about human rights. God help us. One day, I predict that we will go to concentration camps for being Catholic. Because we will be accused of “radical religious extremism” all part of the culture of death and the “religion” of the 21st century.
WHAT???
:eek:

I wonder if your prediciton is true…will Jews be as willing to save us as Catholics where in helping to save them:confused:
 
Hello Bones,

82 million dead from Hitler’s unjust evil war. Hitler’s evil war machine’s driving force was primarily Christians willing to fight for Hitler rather than accept martyrdom (being shot for sedition).

Would Pope Pious XII have not saved more lives by leading the Church to refuse to kill for Hitler in his unjust evil war? Had Hitler had to martyr all the Christians in Germany and Italy there would have been no German and Italian army, no WWII and more than likely the Jews would not be now asking to postpone the Beatification of the great martyred pope who stood opposed to Hitler in order to save the world from the greatest evil catastrophy in human history.

Had Pope Pious XII believed that it was mortal sin or grave evil for Italian and German Catholics and Protestants to kill for Hitler, he would have had to lead the Church not to kill for Hitler. That is if he was to remain faithful to Jesus Christ. It is the Pope’s job to put the salvation of the flock ahead of martyrdom. Even one soul going to hell (eternal death) is more life lost than the combined physical life cut short from all the wars in human history.

Now the Muslim world is killing nuns and priests in Middle East countrys and threatened a jihad against the Catholic Church to insure that Pope Benedict XVI never again critisizes the Koran’s demand for violence. I have not yet heard any more critisizm from Pope Benedict XVI about the Muslims and the Koran’s call for violence against the “infidels”. Pope Benedict XVI could be the next great Pope known for saving hundreds of millions of Catholics through his silence.

Seeing that it was the Christian Church (tens of millions of Christians), who Pope Pious XII was responcible for keeping away from committing grave evil, even if it ment accepting martyrdom, who powered Hitlers evil war machine which lead to the deaths of 80 million people, let us consider skipping the Beatification of Pope Pious XII untill we know for sure (after judgement day) that all those German and Italian Christians who killed for Hitlers evil unjust war, leading to the deaths of 80 million people, really did not commit mortal sin or grave evil and they are in heaven.
The twofold symbolic weight of the killing of sister Leonella

by Lucetta Scaraffia

The dramatic killing of sister Leonella Sgorbati in Somalia on Sunday, September 16 (2006)
, is, unfortunately, a symbolic action of great significance. This is so for two fundamental reasons. Because, in fact, even in the absence of precise assertions, this is a matter of blackmail. And because the one assassinated was a woman, and a religious woman.

As seen in the history of the Christian persecutions, this time as well the method was chosen of striking others in the place of the one who was indicated by so many voices in the Muslim world as the main target, namely Benedict XVI, and not only because the Italian religious sister was an easier victim The explanation is found in the memorable pages of the Japanese writer Shusaku Endo, which narrate the persecution of the Christians in Japan in the seventeenth century: some Jesuits, although they were ready to die to bear witness to their faith, were forced to commit apostasy by having the Christian country people subjected to torture before their eyes. A Christian can dispose of his own life, even to the point of martyrdom – and the countless Christian martyrs of the past century demonstrate this – but not of the lives of others: the killing and torture of other Christians paralyzes the real target of the aggressive action, it gags him, it prevents him from saying and doing what would be rightfor himself, until it impedes him from martyrdom. The Japanese case is the most sensational, but there have been other, similar cases, if one only reads attentively the lives of the missionaries of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries: it’s enough to recall the Combonian missionary sisters who were held prisoner by the Mahdi in the Sudan at the end of the nineteenth century.

quoted from: chiesa.espressonline.it/d…id=85302&eng=y
 
Hello Bones,

82 million dead from Hitler’s unjust evil war. Hitler’s evil war machine’s driving force was primarily Christians willing to fight for Hitler rather than accept martyrdom (being shot for sedition).

Would Pope Pious XII have not saved more lives by leading the Church to refuse to kill for Hitler in his unjust evil war? Had Hitler had to martyr all the Christians in Germany and Italy there would have been no German and Italian army, no WWII and more than likely the Jews would not be now asking to postpone the Beatification of the great martyred pope who stood opposed to Hitler in order to save the world from the greatest evil catastrophy in human history.

Had Pope Pious XII believed that it was mortal sin or grave evil for Italian and German Catholics and Protestants to kill for Hitler, he would have had to lead the Church not to kill for Hitler. That is if he was to remain faithful to Jesus Christ. It is the Pope’s job to put the salvation of the flock ahead of martyrdom. Even one soul going to hell (eternal death) is more life lost than the combined physical life cut short from all the wars in human history.

Now the Muslim world is killing nuns and priests in Middle East countrys and threatened a jihad against the Catholic Church to insure that Pope Benedict XVI never again critisizes the Koran’s demand for violence. I have not yet heard any more critisizm from Pope Benedict XVI about the Muslims and the Koran’s call for violence against the “infidels”. Pope Benedict XVI could be the next great Pope known for saving hundreds of millions of Catholics through his silence.

Seeing that it was the Christian Church (tens of millions of Christians), who Pope Pious XII was responcible for keeping away from committing grave evil, even if it ment accepting martyrdom, who powered Hitlers evil war machine which lead to the deaths of 80 million people, let us consider skipping the Beatification of Pope Pious XII untill we know for sure (after judgement day) that all those German and Italian Christians who killed for Hitlers evil unjust war, leading to the deaths of 80 million people, really did not commit mortal sin or grave evil and they are in heaven.
quoted from: chiesa.espressonline.it/d…id=85302&eng=y
I’m tired of people telling the Church what saints they can beatify and which ones they can. Had Pius spoken out directly against Hitler, the Nazis would have bombed the Vatican for sure. Keep in mind that this is war. The Vatican doesn’t take sides during war and is neutral as is their position. I disagree with the idea of skipping the beatification. If certain Jews or others get offended by the beautification so what? The pope did what he could. All you have to do is read the overwhelming evidence that Sister Marchoine, Ronald Rychlak and Rabbi Dalin have put forth. They tell it like it is. Unlike the biased anti-catholic writers like James Carrol (an ex-priest), Susan Zucotti, Goldhagen and others who accuse the Church of anti-semitism. I see no reason to stop the beafication process. Those who say that the beatification process should be stopped, typically have been influenced by the books Hitler’s Pope and Costantine’s sword. Steve Merton, the Vatican doesn’t need to be lectured here. Thank you.
 
I’m tired of people telling the Church what saints they can beatify and which ones they can. Had Pius spoken out directly against Hitler, the Nazis would have bombed the Vatican for sure. Keep in mind that this is war. The Vatican doesn’t take sides during war and is neutral as is their position. I disagree with the idea of skipping the beatification. If certain Jews or others get offended by the beautification so what? The pope did what he could. All you have to do is read the overwhelming evidence that Sister Marchoine, Ronald Rychlak and Rabbi Dalin have put forth. They tell it like it is. Unlike the biased anti-catholic writers like James Carrol (an ex-priest), Susan Zucotti, Goldhagen and others who accuse the Church of anti-semitism. I see no reason to stop the beafication process. Those who say that the beatification process should be stopped, typically have been influenced by the books Hitler’s Pope and Costantine’s sword. Steve Merton, the Vatican doesn’t need to be lectured here. Thank you.
:amen:
 
I wish people, like the Jews and Chinese, would stay out of OUR INTERNAL AFFAIRS. If OUR religion wants to declare people Saints that is OUR bussiness. They should not see it as a political issue. They aren’t in our religion, and if they don’t want to believe it…they don’t have to. Why does a Jew care if Pius XII is declared a Saint either way? They don’t believe it means anything, and if they don’t believe he was a good man…they’ll believe that whether he is canonized or not.

Understood - but, the cause does have implications outside the CC, as well as within. Which means that it affects our relations with our neighbours.​

**1. **Canonisations (for example) are not purely “domestic” matters - they do of course affect us; that’s the obvious bit. What may not be quite so obvious, is that some causes for canonisation (perhaps not all) have an effect upon others; or, to put the same thing another way, the Church does not exist in isolation from the world: what the Church does is of interest to those in it, and also, to those not in it.

**2. **There is something else - we can’t both defend Pius XII by quoting favourable remarks about him from Golda Meir, Albert Einstein, Pinchas Lapide, Rabbi David Dalin and other non-Catholics:

and then say (in effect) “Who cares what non-Catholics think ? He’s ours, so they should mind their own business”.

If praise from non-Catholics is worth quoting - so is “non-praise”. If they have no business to criticise Pius XII unfavourably - it is not clear why they should be quoted when they speak favourably about him (or, for that matter, anyone else)

3. There is another reason why this cause is not a purely domestic matter: the lives of the Saints are as much matters of (so-called) “secular” history as they are the business of the Catholic Church in general or of the Popes & the Roman Congregations in particular.

To illustrate: St. Edward the Confessor is not just a Catholic Saint - he is also a king of England, who reigned from 1042 to 1066; so he is as much of interest to the historian of Anglo-Saxon England, or of 11th-century England, as he is to Catholics. One does not need to be a Catholic to write about the history of Anglo-Saxon England, 11th-century or otherwise. One can quite well be aware that he is a Saint or is thought by Catholics to be one, without regarding all his acts as wise. Holiness is incompatible, not with being beyond all criticism, but with being unholy.

As with him, so with Pius XII: both are of importance in Catholicism; it does not follow that they are of interest to nobody else, or that others cannot have their own opinions of them.

**4. **FWIW - as Pius XII is credited with having saved the lives of many Jews, it seems perfectly fair for Jews to take an interest in Pius XII. And if & when they do so, they are going to have opinions about him & his acts, just as we do. Why must they have the same opinion of him as his admirers have ?

For the matter of that, do Catholics have to regard him as fit to be canonised ? Surely it is the purpose of the cause to investigate whether or not there be sufficient evidence, & evidence of such a kind, as indicates that it is appropriate to honour him with a public cultus. As that investigation has not finished, an attitude of prudent reserve seems to be advisable. In the meantime, nothing prevents those with a devotion to him from praying to him or from spreading devotion to him (AFAIK). ##
 
History is usually written by liars. And I know that in the future if I defend Pope Pius XII people will call me a liar. But that’s the society we live in. If people get offended by what we Catholics say about our faith so be it. Even Dominus Iesus was decried throughout the world as ‘religious bigotry’ and ‘prejudice’. Pro-abortion politicians lecturing the Vatican about separation of Church and State and tell us to keep our nose out of their internal affairs. So the Church should remain silent and not praise it’s God. Should Catholics just simply take a back seat and remain indifferent to human suffering? Surely not! To say the Church should postpone the beatification process of Pius XII is just another one of the Devil’s tricks. That’s what it really is in my opinion. Decrying the document Dominus Iesus and calling it ‘bigotry’ is yet another one of the Devil’s tricks. People fail to understand the damage Satan is doing to Catholic-Jewish relations through the defamation of Pius XII and decrying Dominus Iesus: and he’s enjoying every minute of it. Those that do those things to Mother Church are inspired by the Devil.
 
I’m tired of people telling the Church what saints they can beatify and which ones they can. Had Pius spoken out directly against Hitler, the Nazis would have bombed the Vatican for sure. Keep in mind that this is war. The Vatican doesn’t take sides during war and is neutral as is their position. I disagree with the idea of skipping the beatification. If certain Jews or others get offended by the beautification so what? The pope did what he could. All you have to do is read the overwhelming evidence that Sister Marchoine, Ronald Rychlak and Rabbi Dalin have put forth. They tell it like it is. Unlike the biased anti-catholic writers like James Carrol (an ex-priest), Susan Zucotti, Goldhagen and others who accuse the Church of anti-semitism. I see no reason to stop the beafication process. Those who say that the beatification process should be stopped, typically have been influenced by the books Hitler’s Pope and Costantine’s sword. Steve Merton, the Vatican doesn’t need to be lectured here. Thank you.
Hello bones,

I am certian that had Pope Pius XII lead Catholics and other Christians not to kill for Hitler, because Hitler was fighting an unjust evil war, not only would the Vatican have been bombed but Pope Pius XII would have been tortured and his mutilated body would have been hung on the gates of the bombed Vatican rubble. This would have been done to warn any leader or Catholic who dared to get in the way of Hitler’s evil world domination plan.

I agree that it is unimportant as what Pope Pius XII’s political view point of the war was. The question is, was the conduct of tens of millions of Christians, from Italy and Germany, in killing for Hitler in his evil unjust war, intrinsically evil or mortal sin? This was Pope Pious XII’s business in a big way. If Christians killing for Hitler were putting their souls in danger of damnation, this is where Jesus relies on His Vicar to guide His flock into eternal life, regardless of personal suffering and martyrdom. Papal silence to save physical life is unacceptable to Jesus when Christ’s flock’s eternal life is on the line.

Guiding Christ’s flock into eternal life is more important than even remaining silent in order to save tens of millions of Catholics from being martyred. If even one Catholic goes to hell because Pope Pious XII remained silent and did not warn them of an intrisic evil in killing for Hitler, more life was lost, eternal life, than the combine life cut short from all the wars in human history.

Before the Church Beatifies Pope Pius XII, let the Church first come out and excathadra explain that tens of millions of Christians, killing for Hitler in his evil unjust war, in no way was mortal sin, intrisically evil, spiritually harmful or could cause them to go to hell, in any way. Once we are assured that their were no damnation issues involved in tens of millions of Christians killing for Hitler, then we can all glorify Pope Pious XII as to how he saved the physical lives of many Jews.

Pope Pious XII saving his own life, the Vatican from being bombed, and hundreds of thousands of Jewish people’s physical lives, means nothing if the Pope stood back and remained silent as tens of millions of Italians and Germans put their souls in danger of eternal damnation by killing for Hitler.

What do you think?
 
Hello bones,

I am certian that had Pope Pius XII lead Catholics and other Christians not to kill for Hitler, because Hitler was fighting an unjust evil war, not only would the Vatican have been bombed but Pope Pius XII would have been tortured and his mutilated body would have been hung on the gates of the bombed Vatican rubble. This would have been done to warn any leader or Catholic who dared to get in the way of Hitler’s evil world domination plan.

I agree that it is unimportant as what Pope Pius XII’s political view point of the war was. The question is, was the conduct of tens of millions of Christians, from Italy and Germany, in killing for Hitler in his evil unjust war, intrinsically evil or mortal sin? This was Pope Pious XII’s business in a big way. If Christians killing for Hitler were putting their souls in danger of damnation, this is where Jesus relies on His Vicar to guide His flock into eternal life, regardless of personal suffering and martyrdom. Papal silence to save physical life is unacceptable to Jesus when Christ’s flock’s eternal life is on the line.

Guiding Christ’s flock into eternal life is more important than even remaining silent in order to save tens of millions of Catholics from being martyred. If even one Catholic goes to hell because Pope Pious XII remained silent and did not warn them of an intrisic evil in killing for Hitler, more life was lost, eternal life, than the combine life cut short from all the wars in human history.

Before the Church Beatifies Pope Pius XII, let the Church first come out and excathadra explain that tens of millions of Christians, killing for Hitler in his evil unjust war, in no way was mortal sin, intrisically evil, spiritually harmful or could cause them to go to hell, in any way. Once we are assured that their were no damnation issues involved in tens of millions of Christians killing for Hitler, then we can all glorify Pope Pious XII as to how he saved the physical lives of many Jews.

Pope Pious XII saving his own life, the Vatican from being bombed, and hundreds of thousands of Jewish people’s physical lives, means nothing if the Pope stood back and remained silent as tens of millions of Italians and Germans put their souls in danger of eternal damnation by killing for Hitler.

What do you think?
The Pope did not remain silent period.

catholicleague.org/research/the_confessor.htm

The war was unjust yes. Pius even denounced the war. Read the document
SUMMI PONTIFICATUS

papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SUMMI.HTM

The Church was against the war.
 
Negative information is no obstacle. St. Augustine caused his mother no end of grief and pain and he had a mistress besides. Maximilian Kolbe wrote some decidedly anti-semitic pamphlets. Other saints as well weren’t necessarily holy their entire lives.
[SIGN][/SIGN]

Even our beloved John Paul 11 of blessed memory admits of Kolbe’s anti-semitic stance at some point. Must go to work, will come back and expand…
 
Even our beloved John Paul 11 of blessed memory admits of Kolbe’s anti-semitic stance at some point. Must go to work, will come back and expand…
I have no recollection of John Paul II saying that Kolbe was anti-semitic. Let me ask you this. Why would an anti-semite allow Jews into his monastery? Matthew Bunson of EWTN stated, “I know of no valid reason of any kind to accuse St. Maximilian Kolbe of anti-Semitism.” **10-01-2002

Father Kolbe became director of Poland’s chief Catholic publishing complex, which published both a monthly magazine with a circulation of about one million and a daily paper with a circulation of about 125,000.

Father Kolbe was considered a threat to German domination for refusing German citizenship. The Gestapo published one final article about him in 1940. My question to you Shoshana is how can you say that John Paul II said that Kolbe was an anti-semite when the evidence proves otherwise?

myhero.com/myhero/hero.asp?hero=mkolbe

**
 
Here’s a good one by Father John A. Hardon. No evidence of Kolbe being anti-semitic in this one.

ewtn.com/library/MARY/KOLBE.htm

** Maximillian’s Marian Spirituality
** We will reconstruct the main features of Maximillian’s spirituality. The spirituality of St. Maximillian is based directly on this truth: that the Immaculate Virgin Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces. That is the first premise of his Marian thinking. If this were not so, Maximillian explains, all our strength and effort in the spiritual life would be in vain. In other words, our spiritual life depends on grace. That’s obvious, but it also depends on the grace that we must receive through Mary.
Second, the Blessed Virgin Mary is the Mediatrix of all the graces that any human being receives, believer or unbeliever, Christian or non-Christian, without exception.
Third, our life of grace depends on the nearness of grace that we have to the soul of the Immaculate Mother of God. It is an article of Faith that everyone receives sufficient grace to reach Heaven. But the degree of grace that any person receives—always from Christ but through Mary—depends on the degree of grace which that person, at the time when the grace is needed, is near to, like to, assimilated to the Mother of Jesus. The more Marian we are, the more assurance we have of obtaining grace from Mary’s Son through His Mother. That deserves to be memorized.
Fourth, the nearer a person’s soul is, to the soul of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the purer that person’s soul becomes, the more sinless, the holier that person becomes in his faith, growing in understanding and firmly accepting God’s revealed truth. In other words, holiness determines clarity; holiness determines intelligibility; holiness determines certitude in the faith that we already possess. Our faith will grow in the measure of our holiness approximating, at any given point in time, the holiness of Christ’s Mother. Correspondingly, the greater becomes that person’s virtues—theological and moral. This is a unique insight into Marian spirituality.
Our relationship with Mary, as Mediatrix is normative. Depending on how closely our life of grace approximates Mary’s at any given time in our lives, she then becomes the standard of how much grace we are going to receive.
Fifth, Maximillian describes Our Lady in terms of her relationship with the Holy Trinity. The one created person in whom we can best recognize and find reflected the Holy Trinity, is the Blessed Virgin Mary who is the spouse, says Maximillian, of the Holy Trinity.
Everything which God does, outside of His own Trinitarian life—in other words in the created universe of time and eternity—is always done by all three Persons, equally and simultaneously. Having created the world, the apex of the work of the Holy Trinity is the Incarnation and therefore Mary, who had to cooperate with her free human will with the Holy Trinity. Otherwise there would not have been an Incarnation.
Maximillian insists that although Mary is of course a creature, there is one and only one who is the most sublime model that God has created among human persons; one for us to both venerate and imitate, and that is the Immaculate Mother of God.
Sixth, unlike her Son Who is a divine Person, there are not, as the heretical Nestorius claimed, two in Christ, human and divine. There are two , one Person in Christ. Mary was not divine, but she was as closely united with the Trinity as any human person can be. The key words in Maximillian’s Mariology are “human person.” The only human person who was as closely united to the Holy Trinity as is absolutely possible, and therefore, the highest reflection of the love of the Holy Trinity; the most perfect human, living, visible, audible human being is the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Seventh, St. Maximillian spoke of the human soul as going with Mary to Christ, not going to Christ from Mary. He avoided that preposition of relationship.
Eighth, he stressed the importance of every Catholic consecrating him or herself to Mary and he added that this could be done in one of a variety of ways. “We can consecrate ourselves to the Immaculate one in various ways,” he said, “and express our consecration in different words or different forms. In fact, a simple act of the will would be enough for that really is the essence of such a Marian consecration.” However, he did provide one formula as follows: “My Immaculate Queen of heaven and earth, refuge of sinners and Mother most loving; you to whom God entrusted the entire order of mercy. I am an unworthy sinner. I cast myself at your feet, humbly pleading that you ordain to accept me completely and totally as your property and possession and do with me, and all my powers of body and soul, and with all my life and death and eternity, whatever is pleasing to you.”
 
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