Postpone Move To Beatify Pius Xii, Israeli Envoy Suggests

  • Thread starter Thread starter bones_IV
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I have no recollection of John Paul II saying that Kolbe was anti-semitic. Let me ask you this. Why would an anti-semite allow Jews into his monastery? Matthew Bunson of EWTN stated, “I know of no valid reason of any kind to accuse St. Maximilian Kolbe of anti-Semitism.” **10-01-2002 **
[SIGN][/SIGN]

I wouldn’t make that statement if I did not read it myself. I have just come back from work and must go to prayer tonight…when i come back I will search the book I got it from and will quote it. I am not bent in pointing a finger, but as someone said on this thread, he was a product of his own time…will be back…👋
 
Is that fair?
[SIGN][/SIGN]

Albert Einstein also said that it was the Catholic Church that did the most in helping during that period of time…and…so did the Chief Rabbi in Israel who converted to Catholicism…! Now ain’t that sweet! 🙂
 
I wouldn’t make that statement if I did not read it myself. I have just come back from work and must go to prayer tonight…when i come back I will search the book I got it from and will quote it. I am not bent in pointing a finger, but as someone said on this thread, he was a product of his own time…will be back…👋
Don’t go against EWTN now. You avoided my question.
 
I have a question Penny Plain…based on what you wrote…was it the Vaticans “job” to stop the holocaust?
Why is more blame laid at the Vaticans door step than on the Americans door step…they (AMericans) knew what was going on and could of stepped in sooner but chose not to…WHY…did the US think jews did not need their help?
IAfter Kristallnacht, at least, it seemed fairly clear that the Nazis had it in for the Jews in a big way, even if nobody sane could imagine something as horrible as Treblinka.
 
So are you suggesting that the Pope had /has control over peoples “free will”??
Hello Karin,

So what are you saying?

I think you are saying that you do believe tens of millions of German and Italians were practicing intrincic evil, mortal sin and endangering their souls with eternal damnation in killing for Hitler. I think you are saying that this is not Pope Pius XII falt because Catholics have free will. Are saying, who cares if Pope Pius XII was horrible at his job of leading Christ’s flock into eternal life, lets glorify him anyway?
 
I have a question Penny Plain…based on what you wrote…was it the Vaticans “job” to stop the holocaust?
Why is more blame laid at the Vaticans door step than on the Americans door step…they (AMericans) knew what was going on and could of stepped in sooner but chose not to…WHY…did the US think jews did not need their help?
Karin,

America did stop the the holocaust! Have you never seen the footage of American and Allied troops liberating the German consentration camps? What are you talking about!
 
Hello Karin,

So what are you saying?

I think you are saying that you do believe tens of millions of German and Italians were practicing intrincic evil, mortal sin and endangering their souls with eternal damnation in killing for Hitler. I think you are saying that this is not Pope Pius XII falt because Catholics have free will. Are saying, who cares if Pope Pius XII was horrible at his job of leading Christ’s flock into eternal life, lets glorify him anyway?
A Pope can lead…but does that mean he is a bad Pope if people chose not to follow him or pick and choose what to follow…I dont think so…God gave us all “free will” to follow what is true and right or not …it would seem that many decided to use their free will and do the work of Satan…but many did follow the Pope and and the Churchs teachings…👍
 
Hello Karin,

So what are you saying?

I think you are saying that you do believe tens of millions of German and Italians were practicing intrincic evil, mortal sin and endangering their souls with eternal damnation in killing for Hitler. I think you are saying that this is not Pope Pius XII falt because Catholics have free will. Are saying, who cares if Pope Pius XII was horrible at his job of leading Christ’s flock into eternal life, lets glorify him anyway?
I think what you fail to understand is the Church’s stance during war.
 
Karin,

America did stop the the holocaust! Have you never seen the footage of American and Allied troops liberating the German consentration camps? What are you talking about!
No poop Sherlock…but could they of saved more lives than what they did…YES!
I think you have failed to realize my point …the USA could of saved more lives than what they did if they got over to Europe sooner…but I do not hear anybody bashing them for what they did not do…but I see plenty of people bashing the Catholic CHurch and POpe for not doing enough…
 
Your not making any sense here. I agree it is the pope’s job to lead Christ’s Church into eternal life.

From Summi Pontificatus:

From paragraphs 45 to 50 **Pius condemned the racial policies of the Nazis. **
Hello bones,

You say that it is the Pope’s job to lead “Christ’s Church” into eternal life then you quote the Pope trying to guide the Nazis.

Do you have any quotes from Pope Pius XII condemning Catholics for killing for Hitler?
 
Consider as well that the Church is not to take the place of other authorities. You seem to imply that mere words could have prevented the war. Have you not read what St. Francis of Assisi said when he stated, “Preach the gospel, when necessary use words.” The Church is to be an example for others. You seem to be asserting that Pius XII by using condemnations from the pulpit would have prevented the war. Which is an assumption and sophistic reasoning. Rather the Holy See’s efforts to put an end to the war were low profile. So what you’re suggesting would have drawn attention to the Church’s activities during the war. Steve Merten, please stop these nonsensical posts. Jewish refugee groups didn’t speak out either during the war. Interesting isn’t it? The lesson I learn from Pius’s efforts in not speaking out directly against the Nazis during the Second World War is that sometimes the best answer is doing your work in relative silence. Are you saying that the Church should encourage the enemy?
Hello bones,

You are misrepresenting my posts. My posts really have nothing to do with Pope Pius XII trying to stop the war or the halocaust. My posts deal with the idea that the Pope, the leader of Christ’s Church, should have been focusing on leading Christ’s Church, (tens of millions of Catholics who were killing for Hitler), into eternal life. Hitler not being able to fight his evil unjust war if Catholics refused to kill for him is only a side benifite that I mentioned.
 

At what point do you think the Pope should have stepped up and said: “Nazism is morally sinful and to be a subscriber to the theories of Hitler is to be anti-Catholic”? What prevented the Vatican from de-legitimizing the Catholicism of practicing Nazis, refusing them communion, and excommunicating them?
 
First, remember that Pius XII and his predecessor Pius XI, to whom he served as Secretary of State, made it fundamentally clear that cooperation with the Nazi racial agenda and Jewish persecution could not be allowed. One cannot suggest that Catholics did not understand that as papal teaching at the time. Far too many Catholics, however, out of either ideological agreement or pure fear, chose instead to follow the nationalistic goals of their homeland than listen to the entreaties of the Popes.
catholicleague.org/pius/piusxii_faqs.html
 
No poop Sherlock…but could they of saved more lives than what they did…YES!
I think you have failed to realize my point …the USA could of saved more lives than what they did if they got over to Europe sooner…but I do not hear anybody bashing them for what they did not do…but I see plenty of people bashing the Catholic CHurch and POpe for not doing enough…
America and the Allies fought as hard as they could for five plus years to stop the evil attrocities of Hitler.

Have you read bones’ link “The Church was against the war”. In it Pope Pius never identifies Hitler and Mousolini as the evil bad guys. The whole encyclical is a generic stand against war in general. It is identical to staments Pope John Paul II and other Popes have said generically about war for the past 150 years. I have heard that Popes have opposed all wars, just and unjust, since the fall of States of the Church in 1870. States of the Church existed for a millenium and a half and during this era Popes needed wars to protect their papal lands from agression. After the fall of States of the Church, Popes have never supported any wars, as I have heard. Pope Pius XII was just as opposed to America going to war, even to liberate the Jews from holocaust, as he was of Hitler going to war in the Pope Pius XII encyclical that bones presented.

The Church was against the war.
papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SUMMI.HTM

As just as NATO was in protecting the Albanians from Serb genocide, rape, torture and being driven from their lands, Pope John Paul II was greatly opposed to the Kosovo war.

Allong with many Catholic clergy form Pope Pius XII on down preaching to stop America from going to war against the evil wickedness of Hitler, America was also in a state of isolationism. After WWI many Ameircans did not want to send their sons to die in foreign lands again. It is hard for American leaders to overcome these obsticals. Pearl Harbor did the job though.

Nations deciding to fight a just war is not as easy as you make it sound. To fight a just war to protect the innocent from attrocities, nations always have to do so, these days, with opposition from Catholic Popes.
 
Hello bones,

You are misrepresenting my posts. My posts really have nothing to do with Pope Pius XII trying to stop the war or the halocaust. My posts deal with the idea that the Pope, the leader of Christ’s Church, should have been focusing on leading Christ’s Church, (tens of millions of Catholics who were killing for Hitler), into eternal life. Hitler not being able to fight his evil unjust war if Catholics refused to kill for him is only a side benifite that I mentioned.
This is used by people to deny the papal infallibility. “My posts really have nothing to do with Pope Pius XII trying to stop the war or the halocaust.” No, no and no. Your posts came off as sounding exactly that.

“You say that it is the Pope’s job to lead “Christ’s Church” into eternal life then you quote the Pope trying to guide the Nazis. Do you have any quotes from Pope Pius XII condemning Catholics for killing for Hitler?”

Straw man argument. I just gave you example of that and you refuse to acknowledge it. It seems that you want to blame Pius for not doing his job during WWII. Stop with your Catholic bashing please.
 
You do understand that like Switzerland the Vatican is a neutral country right? I did read bones link…I thought that paragraphs 44-53 did a pretty good job of stating the Popes view on anti-semitsim…are you upset that he did not specifically use the words Hitler, Nazi’s or Mousolini?
America and the Allies fought as hard as they could for five plus years to stop the evil attrocities of Hitler.
Have you read bones’ link “The Church was against the war”. In it Pope Pius never identifies Hitler and Mousolini as the evil bad guys. The whole encyclical is a generic stand against war in general. It is identical to staments Pope John Paul II and other Popes have said generically about war for the past 150 years. I have heard that Popes have opposed all wars, just and unjust, since the fall of States of the Church in 1870. States of the Church existed for a millenium and a half and during this era Popes needed wars to protect their papal lands from agression. After the fall of States of the Church, Popes have never supported any wars, as I have heard. Pope Pius XII was just as opposed to America going to war, even to liberate the Jews from holocaust, as he was of Hitler going to war in the Pope Pius XII encyclical that bones presented.

The Church was against the war.
papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SUMMI.HTM

As just as NATO was in protecting the Albanians from Serb genocide, rape, torture and being driven from their lands, Pope John Paul II was greatly opposed to the Kosovo war.

Allong with many Catholic clergy form Pope Pius XII on down preaching to stop America from going to war against the evil wickedness of Hitler, America was also in a state of isolationism. After WWI many Ameircans did not want to send their sons to die in foreign lands again. It is hard for American leaders to overcome these obsticals. Pearl Harbor did the job though.

Nations deciding to fight a just war is not as easy as you make it sound. To fight a just war to protect the innocent from attrocities, nations always have to do so, these days, with opposition from Catholic Popes.
 
Allong with many Catholic clergy form Pope Pius XII on down preaching to stop America from going to war against the evil wickedness of Hitler, America was also in a state of isolationism. After WWI many Ameircans did not want to send their sons to die in foreign lands again. It is hard for American leaders to overcome these obsticals. Pearl Harbor did the job though.
yes pearl harbor did the job …but how many jews had to die till the US decided to enter the war?
did the US speak out against what Hitler was doing before they entered the war…not as far as I recall from US history class…once again they did nothing to help the jews when they could of!
 
Have you read bones’ link “The Church was against the war”. In it Pope Pius never identifies Hitler and Mousolini as the evil bad guys. The whole encyclical is a generic stand against war in general.

The Church was against the war.
papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SUMMI.HTM

As just as NATO was in protecting the Albanians from Serb genocide, rape, torture and being driven from their lands, Pope John Paul II was greatly opposed to the Kosovo war.

Allong with many Catholic clergy form Pope Pius XII on down preaching to stop America from going to war against the evil wickedness of Hitler, America was also in a state of isolationism. After WWI many Ameircans did not want to send their sons to die in foreign lands again. It is hard for American leaders to overcome these obsticals. Pearl Harbor did the job though.
My answers were clearly not sufficient for you. It seems that you are living in denial. There is no doubt that Hitler for sure twisted up Christian teaching regarding the “people who rejected Jesus” and that it made easier for him to develop his extreme racial views and for the German public to accept his ideas. As Saperstein says “The intellectual origins of Nazi antisemitism are to be found in pseudo-scientific racist and mystical -romantic-traditionalist ideologies of the nineteenth century, not in the teachings of Augustine, Innocent III or even Martin Luther.” (Moments of Crisis in Jewish-Christian Relations). Even Christian leaders who proclaimed the worst anti-Semitic teachings of their faith couldn’t embrace Nazism. Now, many in Germany feared that Russia might invade them and that the Communists would take over. Pius realized that Nazism posed a similar threat like that of communism.

Van Hoek says “with it he bracketed Nazism in the same breath, for it strikes, no less ruthlessly, at the individuality of the home, the very heart of religion. Both are tyrannically pagan.” (Pope Pius XII: Priest and Statesman, p. 90)

If there was anti-Semitic prejudice in the Catholic Church I don’t think it would have affecte Pius’ performance during the war.

“I know well that His Holiness the Pope is opposed from the depths of his noble soul to all persecution and especially to the persecution…which the Nazis inflict unremittingly on the Jewish people…I take this opportunity to express…my sincere thanks as well as my deep appreciation…of the invaluable help given by the Catholic Church to the Jewish people in it’s affliction.” (Actes et Documents, vol IX, p. 575.)

One this Steve Merten I should make clear is that any condemnation by Pius would have kept from the German public by the Nazis. Another thing I will point out is that his messages to nuncios around the world could be intercepted. His newspapers could be halted at the gates of the Vatican.

“An encyclical letter aimed at Germany would have destroyed or altered before publication.” (Cornwell, Hitler’s Pope, 244).

Aware of this Pius stated in March 1, 1942 “Whereas Our Christmas radio message found a strong echo in the world…We learn with sadness that it was almost completely hidden from the hearing of German Catholics.” (Pierre Blet, Pius XII and the Second World War).

“Please tell everyone, everyone you can, that the Pope suffers agnony on their behalf. Many times I have thought of scorching Nazism with the lightning of excommunication and denouncing to the civilized world the criminality of the extermination of the Jews. We have heard of the very serious threat of retaliation, not on our person but on the poor sons who are under Nazi domination. We have recieved through various channels urgent recommendations that the Holy See should not take a drastic stand. After many tears and many prayers, I have judged that a protest of mine not only would fail to help anyone, but would creat even more fury against the Jews, multiplying acts of cruelty.”

(Robert Martine, Spiritual Semites: Catholics and Jews During World War Two, Catholic League Publications.) The U.S. Deputy Chief of Counsel at the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials, the Nazi hierarchy sent their ambassadors as “a guideline on silencing the Vatican” (Robert A. Graham, Pius XII’s Defense of Jews and Others: 1944-45, Catholic League Publications, p 35). Which made it clear that the Nazis would try to counter anything the Vatican made in its statements.
 
“An encyclical letter aimed at Germany would have destroyed or altered before publication.” (Cornwell, Hitler’s Pope, 244).

Aware of this Pius stated in March 1, 1942 “Whereas Our Christmas radio message found a strong echo in the world…We learn with sadness that it was almost completely hidden from the hearing of German Catholics.” (Pierre Blet, Pius XII and the Second World War).

“Please tell everyone, everyone you can, that the Pope suffers agnony on their behalf. Many times I have thought of scorching Nazism with the lightning of excommunication and denouncing to the civilized world the criminality of the extermination of the Jews. We have heard of the very serious threat of retaliation, not on our person but on the poor sons who are under Nazi domination. We have recieved through various channels urgent recommendations that the Holy See should not take a drastic stand. **After many tears and many prayers, I have judged that a protest of mine not only would fail to help anyone, but would creat even more fury against the Jews, multiplying acts of cruelty.” **
Hello bones,

Do we agree that Pope Pius XII’s murdered tortured mutilated body NOT hanging on the rubble of the Vatican which was NOT blown to peices by Hitler, and Catholic Churches throughout Axis nations which were not destroyed by Hitler, sent a loud and clear message to the Italian and German Catholics. The message: “The Church believes that it is not against the will of Jesus to go allong with Hitler rather than accept percecution and martyrdom opposing his evil”.

Someone made the quote earlier in this thread, “Preach the gospel and if you have to use words.” There were more ways, better ways, than words for the Pope to get Christ’s message out to the tens of millions of Germans and Italians living under Hitler’s evil rule.

Quoted from above:After many tears and many prayers, I have judged that a protest of mine not only would fail to help anyone, but would creat even more fury against the Jews, multiplying acts of cruelty."
There is no sign in this statement that Pope Pius XII puts the salvation of German and Italian Catholic souls and their faithfulness to Jesus above doing all one can do to avoid physical death.

This statement indicates to me that either Pope Pius XII did not see Catholics participating in Hitler’s evil as offensive to Jesus or putting their souls in danger of damnation. Or Pope Pius XII put saving physical lives above leading tens of millions of German and Italian Catholics into eternal life. Or Pope Pius XII did not put leading Catholics into eternal life above personal persecution and personal martyrdom.

Our first Pope put not being martyred above faithfulness to Jesus Christ. Jesus repremanded St. Peter for his wickedness. St. Peter repented and eventually offered his life up as a martyr.
 
(Robert Martine, Spiritual Semites: Catholics and Jews During World War Two, Catholic League Publications.) The U.S. Deputy Chief of Counsel at the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials, the Nazi hierarchy sent their ambassadors as “a guideline on silencing the Vatican” (Robert A. Graham, Pius XII’s Defense of Jews and Others: 1944-45, Catholic League Publications, p 35). Which made it clear that the Nazis would try to counter anything the Vatican made in its statements.
Yes, we know that martyring people has a way of silencing Popes. We have even seen Church leaders preach apastacy, which can harm people’s eternal salvation, in order to avoid the martyrdom of the flock. Now the question is, for the sake of eternal salvation of souls, should persecution of the flock or others detter a Pope from his job of leading the flock into eternal life?

Should a pope be glorified for submitting to the desires of evil men who will indiscriminately murder people to control his speach of preaching the path to eternal life?

The twofold symbolic weight of the killing of sister Leonella
by Lucetta Scaraffia
The dramatic killing of sister Leonella Sgorbati in Somalia on Sunday, September 16 (2006)
, is, unfortunately, a symbolic action of great significance. This is so for two fundamental reasons. Because, in fact, even in the absence of precise assertions, this is a matter of blackmail. And because the one assassinated was a woman, and a religious woman.
As seen in the history of the Christian persecutions, this time as well the method was chosen of striking others in the place of the one who was indicated by so many voices in the Muslim world as the main target, namely Benedict XVI, and not only because the Italian religious sister was an easier victim The explanation is found in the memorable pages of the Japanese writer Shusaku Endo, which narrate the persecution of the Christians in Japan in the seventeenth century: some Jesuits, although they were ready to die to bear witness to their faith, were forced to commit apostasy by having the Christian country people subjected to torture before their eyes. A Christian can dispose of his own life, even to the point of martyrdom – and the countless Christian martyrs of the past century demonstrate this – but not of the lives of others: the killing and torture of other Christians paralyzes the real target of the aggressive action, it gags him, it prevents him from saying and doing what would be right for himself, until it impedes him from martyrdom. The Japanese case is the most sensational, but there have been other, similar cases, if one only reads attentively the lives of the missionaries of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries: it’s enough to recall the Combonian missionary sisters who were held prisoner by the Mahdi in the Sudan at the end of the nineteenth century.
quoted from: chiesa.espressonline.it/d…id=85302&eng=y
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top