Postpone Move To Beatify Pius Xii, Israeli Envoy Suggests

[bones_IV]

Steven_Merten:
Hello bones,

Do we agree that Pope Pius XII’s murdered tortured mutilated body NOT hanging on the rubble of the Vatican which was NOT blown to peices by Hitler, and Catholic Churches throughout Axis nations which were not destroyed by Hitler, sent a loud and clear message to the Italian and German Catholics. The message: “The Church believes that it is not against the will of Jesus to go allong with Hitler rather than accept percecution and martyrdom opposing his evil”.

Someone made the quote earlier in this thread, “Preach the gospel and if you have to use words.” There were more ways, better ways, than words for the Pope to get Christ’s message out to the tens of millions of Germans and Italians living under Hitler’s evil rule.

Quoted from above:**After many tears and many prayers, I have judged that a protest of mine not only would fail to help anyone, but would creat even more fury against the Jews, multiplying acts of cruelty."**There is no sign in this statement that Pope Pius XII puts the salvation of German and Italian Catholic souls and their faithfulness to Jesus above doing all one can do to avoid physical death.

This statement indicates to me that either Pope Pius XII did not see Catholics participating in Hitler’s evil as offensive to Jesus or putting their souls in danger of damnation. Or Pope Pius XII put saving physical lives above leading tens of millions of German and Italian Catholics into eternal life. Or Pope Pius XII did not put leading Catholics into eternal life above personal persecution and personal martyrdom.

Our first Pope put not being martyred above faithfulness to Jesus Christ. Jesus repremanded St. Peter for his wickedness. St. Peter repented and eventually offered his life up as a martyr.

You are clearly disregarding much the scholarship I provided. You’ve also provided a quirky and reductionist interpretations of history. It seems that you are hellbent on proving on everything prejudicial to Pacelli that you weaken your arguments in the process. It’s you who have to make the case there’s nothing to refute in the above statement. It sounds like your politically motivated. Are you saying that Pacelli was the Nazi’s ideal Pope for their Final solution? Why don’t you ask Father Gumpel, of the Congregation for the Cause of Saints. Even Paul VI said, that “Pius XII has a good case.” Why does John Paul II and Benedict XVI call him a reverred pontiff, cause they speak very highly of Pius. Your arguments are very faulty and unfortunately hold no water. I’m just simply telling you the things Pius XII did, and all you give is opinions. History is about facts not opinions.

 

[bones_IV]

Yes, we know that martyring people has a way of silencing Popes. We have even seen Church leaders preach apastacy, which can harm people’s eternal salvation, in order to avoid the martyrdom of the flock. Now the question is, for the sake of eternal salvation of souls, should persecution of the flock or others detter a Pope from his job of leading the flock into eternal life?

Should a pope be glorified for submitting to the desires of evil men who will indiscriminately murder people to control his speach of preaching the path to eternal life?
The twofold symbolic weight of the killing of sister Leonella by Lucetta Scaraffia The dramatic killing of sister Leonella Sgorbati in Somalia on Sunday, September 16 (2006), is, unfortunately, a symbolic action of great significance. This is so for two fundamental reasons. Because, in fact, even in the absence of precise assertions, this is a matter of blackmail. And because the one assassinated was a woman, and a religious woman. As seen in the history of the Christian persecutions, this time as well the method was chosen of striking others in the place of the one who was indicated by so many voices in the Muslim world as the main target, namely Benedict XVI, and not only because the Italian religious sister was an easier victim The explanation is found in the memorable pages of the Japanese writer Shusaku Endo, which narrate the persecution of the Christians in Japan in the seventeenth century: some Jesuits, although they were ready to die to bear witness to their faith, were forced to commit apostasy by having the Christian country people subjected to torture before their eyes. A Christian can dispose of his own life, even to the point of martyrdom – and the countless Christian martyrs of the past century demonstrate this – but not of the lives of others: the killing and torture of other Christians paralyzes the real target of the aggressive action, it gags him, it prevents him from saying and doing what would be right for himself, until it impedes him from martyrdom. The Japanese case is the most sensational, but there have been other, similar cases, if one only reads attentively the lives of the missionaries of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries: it’s enough to recall the Combonian missionary sisters who were held prisoner by the Mahdi in the Sudan at the end of the nineteenth century. quoted from: chiesa.espressonline.it/d…id=85302&eng=y

Your just simply reading into something that’s just not there. Reductionist history again. Pius’ example teaches me that sometimes our best defense is silence and to not feed the trolls when they’re just trying to get a reaction out of you.

 

[Franze]

Pius XII was a great Pope and a man with many virtues, I hope someday it will be saint.
Sadly Isabella the Conqueror vetoed by the jews, although she was an impressionant christian would be another case. But I have hope in the future.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Your arguments are very faulty and unfortunately hold no water. I’m just simply telling you the things Pius XII did, and all you give is opinions. History is about facts not opinions.

Hello bones,

Do we agree that tens of millions of German and Italian Catholics killed for Hitler? Is this historical truth?

Do we agree that leading Christ’s flock into eternal life is infinitely more important than saving even billions of physical lives? Even one soul suffering eternal death is infinitely more death than the combine loss of years of physical lives cut short from all the wars in human history. Do we agree?

Were tens of millions of Catholics killing for Hitler in his evil unjust war within the boundaries of the gospel of Jesus Christ on what we must do to go to heaven?

Did Pope Pius XII disregard personal persecution and the persecution of others in order to preach Christ’s gospel to tens of millions of Catholics, who were killing for Hitler, as to what they must do to go to heaven?

There was persecution in the early Church. Many of the Catholic families that St. Peter baptized and preached Christ’s gospel to were fed to the lions in the Roman colliseium. St. Peter could have simply stopped baptizing Christians and stopped preaching the gospel of Jesus (remained silent) in order to save a great many lives from physical persecution and martyrdom. St. Peter made the decision for others that it is better that they hear the gospel of Jesus Christ and become baptized, even if their whole family is slaughtered in the Roman colliseium. This decision of St. Peter caused the martyrdom and persecution of a great many Catholics, adults and children. This decision of St. Peter brought a great many Catholics into the Kingdom of God. Did Pope Pius XII continue to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to tens of millions of German and Italian Catholics who were killing for Hitler, regardless of how many, including himself, were persecuted and martyred by Hitler, in order to protect the eternal salvation of their souls?

Before we glorify Pope Pius XII, let us examine how well he fulfilled his number one priority and duty to Jesus Christ in leading tens of millions of German and Italian Christians, who were killing for Hitler, into the Kingdom of God. Let us base glorification of a Pope on how well he leads people into the Kingdom of God rather than on how well he helped people, even great numbers of people, avoid physical persecution. Did Pope Pius XII act in the same manner as St. Peter who disregarded the physical persecution and martyrdom of a great many people, including himself, in order to lead as many people as he could into the Kingdom of God?

This is what I am working at establishing in this thread.

 

[bones_IV]

Hello bones,

Do we agree that tens of millions of German and Italian Catholics killed for Hitler? Is this historical truth?

Do we agree that leading Christ’s flock into eternal life is infinitely more important than saving even billions of physical lives? Even one soul suffering eternal death is infinitely more death than the combine loss of years of physical lives cut short from all the wars in human history. Do we agree?

Were tens of millions of Catholics killing for Hitler in his evil unjust war within the boundaries of the gospel of Jesus Christ on what we must do to go to heaven?

Did Pope Pius XII disregard personal persecution and the persecution of others in order to preach Christ’s gospel to tens of millions of Catholics who were killing for Hitler as to what they must do to go to heaven?

There was persecution in the early Church. Many of the Catholic families that St. Peter baptized and preached Christ’s gospel to were fed to the lions in the Roman colliseium. St. Peter could have simply stopped baptizing Christians and stopped preaching the gospel of Jesus (remained silent) in order to save a great many lives from physical persecution and martyrdom. St. Peter made the decision for others that it is better that they hear the gospel of Jesus Christ and become baptized, even if their whole family is slaughtered in the Roman colliseium. This decision of St. Peter caused the martyrdom and persecution of a great many Catholics, adults and children. This decision of St. Peter brought a great many Catholics into the Kingdom of God. Did Pope Pius XII continue to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to tens of millions of German and Italian Catholics who were killing for Hitler, regardless of how many, including himself, were persecuted and martyred by Hitler, in order to protect the eternal salvation of their souls?

Before we glorify Pope Pius XII, let us examine how well he fulfilled his number one priority and duty to Jesus Christ in leading tens of millions of German and Italian Christians, who were killing for Hitler, into the Kingdom of God. Let us base glorification of a Pope on how well he leads people into the Kingdom of God rather than on how well he helped people, even great numbers of people, avoid physical persecution. Did Pope Pius XII act in the same manner as St. Peter who disregarded the physical persecution and martyrdom of a great many people, including himself, in order to lead as many people as he could into the Kingdom of God?

This is what I am working at establishing in this thread.

These questions have already been answered.

 

[Steven_Merten]

These questions have already been answered.

Hello bones,

Could you please state/restate the answers to my questions from my post #118 ?

I am uncertian as to what you are refering to as the answers to these questions. When I read your posts they always seem to swing around to how Pope Pius XII saved physical life through his actions of silence or non-silence.

I have not heard the ways in which Pope Pius XII preached the gospel of Jesus to tens of millions of Catholics who were killing for Hitler. The links and arguments you have brought up seem to always have Pope Pius XII addressing and targeting the world and not directed at tens of millions of Catholics (the Church) who are killing for Hitler, as to what they must do to go to heaven.

Please show how Pope Pius XII addressed Christ’s Church, tens of millions of Catholics and Protestants who were killing for Hitler, as to what they must do to go to heaven.

 

[bones_IV]

Hello bones,

Could you please state/restate the answers to my questions from my post #118 ?

I am uncertian as to what you are refering to as the answers to these questions. When I read your posts they always seem to swing around to how Pope Pius XII saved physical life through his actions of silence or non-silence.

Swing around? Saving Jews from the Nazis was not the right thing to do? The Nazis policies were aimed directly at Jews.
Steven Merten:

I have not heard the ways in which Pope Pius XII preached the gospel of Jesus to tens of millions of Catholics who were killing for Hitler. The links and arguments you have brought up seem to always have Pope Pius XII addressing and targeting the world and not directed at tens of millions of Catholics (the Church) who are killing for Hitler, as to what they must do to go to heaven.

Have you ever considered that “different circumstances require different measures?” Paul says, “Be all things to all people.” Don’t attempt make yourself more holier than the Church.
Steven Merten:

Please show how Pope Pius XII addressed Christ’s Church, tens of millions of Catholics and Protestants who were killing for Hitler, as to what they must do to go to heaven.

The encyclicals and the stuff he wrote were not just to Catholics, Steve, but to all people who were not Catholic. Did you ever consider this? How many times do we do have to go through this. He attacked Hitler many times in the the Vatican’s newpapers directly of course. Just ask the Vatican archivists or ask Father Gumpel. Please stop the anti-catholic posts. Your not making much sense.

 

[Shoshana]

Bones…I cannot find the book (I searched and searched…must’ve loaned it out) that I read about John Paul 11 declaring that Kolbe did pronounce anti-semitic statements in a journal he had…but I also understand that anti-semitism was rampant in so many countries…even during St Bernadette’s time. It is a vice that was carried from one generation to another unfortunately…we cannot deny this. Even John Paul 11 admits to that also…but this doesn’t justify anything at all. And St Kolbe, even being a product of his time, lovingly gave up his life for another. That is the main thing…

 

[bones_IV]

Bones…I cannot find the book (I searched and searched…must’ve loaned it out) that I read about John Paul 11 declaring that Kolbe did pronounce anti-semitic statements in a journal he had…but I also understand that anti-semitism was rampant in so many countries…even during St Bernadette’s time. It is a vice that was carried from one generation to another unfortunately…we cannot deny this. Even John Paul 11 admits to that also…but this doesn’t justify anything at all. And St Kolbe, even being a product of his time, lovingly gave up his life for another. That is the main thing…

secondexodus.com/html/patronsaints/stmaximiliankolbe.htm

Among Father Kolbe’s writings cited was his appeal that readers pray for the “straying children of Israel,” to “lead them to the knowledge of the truth and the achievement of true peace and happiness, since Jesus died for everyone, and therefore for every Jew also …”.

“Father Kolbe believed that the so-called Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, a master plan for Jewish world domination later shown to be an virulently anti-Semitic Russian forgery, was an actual plan drawn up by Zionists. During the 1920s, when Father Kolbe read the Protocols, many Polish Jews as well as Catholics assumed that they were a Zionist plan. Father Kolbe mentioned the Protocols in two articles. Reflecting the Protocol’s rhetoric, Father Kolbe referred to the people who had apparently published it as ‘a cruel, crafty, little known Jewish clique,’ a ‘small handful of Jews [who had let themselves] be seduced by Satan.’ Jews use comparable language in condemning the Protocols.”

secondexodus.com/html/evangelization/answeringchargesofantisemitism.htm

Explain yourself!

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello bones,

My focus is on how Pope Pius XII preformed his duty to Christ in leading tens of millions of German and Italian Christians, who were killing for Hitler, into eternal life. Guiding souls into eternal life is infinitly more important than remaining silent to this job in order to save the physical life of holocaust Jews.

Can you see in the following posts how you swung my main focus point, saving Catholic souls who were killing for Hitler, around to your main focus on how you believe Pope Pius XII saved Jews from persecution?

#118

Hello bones,

Do we agree that tens of millions of German and Italian Catholics killed for Hitler? Is this historical truth?

Do we agree that leading Christ’s flock into eternal life is infinitely more important than saving even billions of physical lives? Even one soul suffering eternal death is infinitely more death than the combine loss of years of physical lives cut short from all the wars in human history. Do we agree?

Were tens of millions of Catholics killing for Hitler in his evil unjust war within the boundaries of the gospel of Jesus Christ on what we must do to go to heaven?

Did Pope Pius XII disregard personal persecution and the persecution of others in order to preach Christ’s gospel to tens of millions of Catholics, who were killing for Hitler, as to what they must do to go to heaven?..

Swing around? Saving Jews from the Nazis was not the right thing to do? The Nazis policies were aimed directly at Jews.

If you want to debate your point which is that saving the physical lives of holocaust Jews, not the salvation of tens of millions of Catholic souls who were killing for Hitler, was Pope Pius’ main job, I will debate it.

I simply ask that you not determine that your answer that using silence to save holocaust Jewish physical life is more important than leading Catholics who are killing for Hitler into eternal life, is somehow the “answer to my question”.

This is not what I consider as you stated, “These questions have already been answered”.

 

[Karin]

Hello bones,

My focus is on how Pope Pius XII preformed his duty to Christ in leading tens of millions of German and Italian Christians, who were killing for Hitler, into eternal life. Guiding souls into eternal life is infinitly more important than remaining silent to this job in order to save the physical life of holocaust Jews.

Can you see in the following posts how you swung my main focus point, saving Catholic souls who were killing for Hitler, around to your main focus on how you believe Pope Pius XII saved Jews from persecution?

#118

If you want to debate your point which is that saving the physical lives of holocaust Jews, not the salvation of tens of millions of Catholic souls who were killing for Hitler, was Pope Pius’ main job, I will debate it.

I simply ask that you not determine that your answer that using silence to save holocaust Jewish physical life is more important than leading Catholics who are killing for Hitler into eternal life, is somehow the “answer to my question”.

This is not what I consider as you stated, “These questions have already been answered”.

in response…

First, remember that Pius XII and his predecessor Pius XI, to whom he served as Secretary of State, made it fundamentally clear that cooperation with the Nazi racial agenda and Jewish persecution could not be allowed. One cannot suggest that Catholics did not understand that as papal teaching at the time. Far too many Catholics, however, out of either ideological agreement or pure fear, chose instead to follow the nationalistic goals of their homeland than listen to the entreaties of the Popes.
catholicleague.org/pius/piusxii_faqs.html

 

[bones_IV]

Hello bones,

My focus is on how Pope Pius XII preformed his duty to Christ in leading tens of millions of German and Italian Christians, who were killing for Hitler, into eternal life. Guiding souls into eternal life is infinitly more important than remaining silent to this job in order to save the physical life of holocaust Jews.

Can you see in the following posts how you swung my main focus point, saving Catholic souls who were killing for Hitler, around to your main focus on how you believe Pope Pius XII saved Jews from persecution?

#118

If you want to debate your point which is that saving the physical lives of holocaust Jews, not the salvation of tens of millions of Catholic souls who were killing for Hitler, was Pope Pius’ main job, I will debate it.

I simply ask that you not determine that your answer that using silence to save holocaust Jewish physical life is more important than leading Catholics who are killing for Hitler into eternal life, is somehow the “answer to my question”.

This is not what I consider as you stated, “These questions have already been answered”.

Here are the answers to your questions in 118.

Stefano Paci, says that Pius was well aware of the Church’s vulnerability to the Italian Fascists state, which could have violated the Lateran Treaty any time, take and establish national Catholic Churches apart from the Vatican, (Read Father Blet’s book on Pius XII). The Nazis had warned the College of Cardinals that they were not happy with Pius’ election to the chair of Peter. Here’s the problem with your questions Steve, these questions of yours overlook the simple fact that if Pius were to provoke the Axis powers to a greater degree than he did, Catholics and Jews would have suffered worse in the Vatican and throughout all of Europe, and he would have had no way to defend them. According to Ronald Rychlak "If he kept silent to protect the persecuted, it would not necessarily be an act of cowardice, but perhaps an act of compassion. A letter of Pius’ confirms this, written on June 2, 1943, to Bishop von Preysing.

“We are leaving to pastors, according to each location, the care of evaluating if, and in what measure, the danger of resprisals and pressure, as well as perhaps other circumstances due to the length and psychology of war, warrant restraint – despite the reasons for intervening – so as to avoid greater evils. This is one of the reasons for which We ourselves are imposing limits in Our declarations.” Steve restraint in this case cannot be said to moral cowardice. Cause that’s what you’re suggesting.

Another thing I will point out to you is that the continuance of the war was a greater evil than the horrors committed during it.
Another problem with your questions is that it doesn’t address the cold reality that an outrageous sin for the Pope to sacrifice his ideals and compassion for the persecuted in order to advance the stature of himself or the Church.

 

[Steven_Merten]

First, remember that Pius XII and his predecessor Pius XI, to whom he served as Secretary of State, made it fundamentally clear that cooperation with the Nazi racial agenda and Jewish persecution could not be allowed. One cannot suggest that Catholics did not understand that as papal teaching at the time. Far too many Catholics, however, out of either ideological agreement or pure fear, chose instead to follow the nationalistic goals of their homeland than listen to the entreaties of the Popes.
catholicleague.org/pius/piusxii_faqs.html

Hello Karin,

I read of a young Catholic teen who desired to be a Catholic priest. He could not get colege funding so he joined the Hitler Youth. Then, rather than be shot by the Nazies for sedition, he joined the German army. He beleived that Germany was fighting on the side of injustice and evil, yet he joined the German army in order not to be shot by the Nazies for sedition. He served in the German army in an anti-aircraft unit in Berlin towards the end of the war. Tell me these guys did not see constant combat action against incoming American B-52 Superfortress bombers.

Did this Catholic “cooperate” with Hitler and the Nazies? Did this Catholic "chose instead to follow the nationalistic goals of their homeland than listen to the entreaties of the Popes."?

---

Would it not have been far better for this young German Catholic to have Pope Pius directly advise him what to do in this choice in regard to Church teachings? Would it not have been better for this young Catholic to have Pope Pius tell him whether or not he should enter the German army or be shot by the Nazies for sedition in refusing to enter the German army. Especially in a situation where the Pope himself was not shot by the Nazies for sedition. Does the Church feel that this young Catholic, in joining the German and following nationalistic goals endanger his soul to damnation? Was this young German Catholic faithful to Jesus in his action of joining the German army, which he considered to be on the side of injustice and evil?

Like the Old Testament mother who carefully guided her seven sons through their martyrdom, should not the Pope have been there to guide and assisst young Germans through their martyrdom in refusing to fight for Hitler? #58

 

[Karin]

Hello Karin,

I read of a young Catholic teen who desired to be a Catholic priest. He could not get colege funding so he joined the Hitler Youth. Then, rather than be shot by the Nazies for sedition, he joined the German army. He beleived that Germany was fighting on the side of injustice and evil, yet he joined the German army in order not to be shot by the Nazies for sedition. He served in the German army in an anti-aircraft unit in Berlin towards the end of the war. Tell me these guys did not see constant combat action against incoming American B-52 Superfortress bombers.

Did this Catholic “cooperate” with Hitler and the Nazies? Did this Catholic "chose instead to follow the nationalistic goals of their homeland than listen to the entreaties of the Popes."?

Would it not have been far better for this young German Catholic to have Pope Pius directly advise him what to do in this choice in regard to Church teachings? Would it not have been better for this young Catholic to have Pope Pius tell him whether or not he should enter the German army or be shot by the Nazies for sedition in refusing to enter the German army. Especially in a situation where the Pope himself was not shot by the Nazies for sedition. Does the Church feel that this young Catholic, in joining the German and following nationalistic goals endanger his soul to damnation? Was this young German Catholic faithful to Jesus in his action of joining the German army, which he considered to be on the side of injustice and evil?

Like the Old Testament mother who carefully guided her seven sons through their martyrdom, should not the Pope have been there to guide and assisst young Germans through their martyrdom in refusing to fight for Hitler? #58

I think I am missing something here…the Germans that fought for HItler did know how the Pope(s) felt about this…THEY chose not to follow what the church taught…THEY chose by their OWN free will to kill in a horrible war.
Once again…"
First, remember that Pius XII and his predecessor Pius XI, to whom he served as Secretary of State, made it fundamentally clear that cooperation with the Nazi racial agenda and Jewish persecution could not be allowed. One cannot suggest that Catholics did not understand that as papal teaching at the time. Far too many Catholics, however, out of either ideological agreement or pure fear, chose instead to follow the nationalistic goals of their homeland than listen to the entreaties of the Popes."
catholicleague.org/pius/piusxii_faqs.html

 

[bones_IV]

Hello Karin,

I read of a young Catholic teen who desired to be a Catholic priest. He could not get colege funding so he joined the Hitler Youth. Then, rather than be shot by the Nazies for sedition, he joined the German army. He beleived that Germany was fighting on the side of injustice and evil, yet he joined the German army in order not to be shot by the Nazies for sedition. He served in the German army in an anti-aircraft unit in Berlin towards the end of the war. Tell me these guys did not see constant combat action against incoming American B-52 Superfortress bombers.
Steven Merten:

Did this Catholic “cooperate” with Hitler and the Nazies?

Many people included Joseph Ratzinger served in the Nazi army. Does that make Pope Benedict XVI a cooperator in evil?
Surely not.
Stever Merten:

Did this Catholic "chose instead to follow the nationalistic goals of their homeland than listen to the entreaties of the Popes."?

Read the papal encyclicals again. Many people including Joseph Ratzinger was forced into Hitler’s youth programs.
Stever Merten:

Would it not have been far better for this young German Catholic to have Pope Pius directly advise him what to do in this choice in regard to Church teachings?

There were Catholic priests and bishops there and other Catholics. Have you considered that? Interesting how you blame the pope.
Stever Merten:

Would it not have been better for this young Catholic to have Pope Pius tell him whether or not he should enter the German army or be shot by the Nazies for sedition in refusing to enter the German army.

I guess Joseph Ratzinger was a hypocrite for being the army too.
Stever Merten:

Especially in a situation where the Pope himself was not shot by the Nazies for sedition. Does the Church feel that this young Catholic, in joining the German and following nationalistic goals endanger his soul to damnation? Was this young German Catholic faithful to Jesus in his action of joining the German army, which he considered to be on the side of injustice and evil?

Not necessarily. Joseph Ratzinger was in combat, how could he possibly be assisting Hitler? You’re not making sense. Joseph Ratzinger was in the army too and he remained faithful.
Steve Merten:

Like the Old Testament mother who carefully guided her seven sons through their martyrdom, should not the Pope have been there to guide and assisst young Germans through their martyrdom in refusing to fight for Hitler? #58

Straw man argument. Joseph Ratzinger didn’t have a choice did he? He even said in a recent statement regarding Vatican Radio that he was close to Pius XII during the war, even when he was in the Hitler’s army. Your making no sense.

 

[Steven_Merten]

I think I am missing something here…the Germans that fought for HItler did know how the Pope(s) felt about this…THEY chose not to follow what the church taught…THEY chose by their OWN free will to kill in a horrible war.
Once again…"
First, remember that Pius XII and his predecessor Pius XI, to whom he served as Secretary of State, made it fundamentally clear that cooperation with the Nazi racial agenda and Jewish persecution could not be allowed. One cannot suggest that Catholics did not understand that as papal teaching at the time. Far too many Catholics, however, out of either ideological agreement or pure fear, chose instead to follow the nationalistic goals of their homeland than listen to the entreaties of the Popes."
catholicleague.org/pius/piusxii_faqs.html

Hello Karin,

I found the story on the priest in the archives.

The real Ratzinger WWII story, from AP

 

[Steven_Merten]

I think I am missing something here…the Germans that fought for HItler did know how the Pope(s) felt about this…THEY chose not to follow what the church taught…THEY chose by their OWN free will to kill in a horrible war.
Once again…"
First, remember that Pius XII and his predecessor Pius XI, to whom he served as Secretary of State, made it fundamentally clear that cooperation with the Nazi racial agenda and Jewish persecution could not be allowed. One cannot suggest that Catholics did not understand that as papal teaching at the time. Far too many Catholics, however, out of either ideological agreement or pure fear, chose instead to follow the nationalistic goals of their homeland than listen to the entreaties of the Popes."
catholicleague.org/pius/piusxii_faqs.html

Many people included Joseph Ratzinger served in the Nazi army. Does that make Pope Benedict XVI a cooperator in evil?
Surely not.

Hello Karin,

Bones disagrees with you.

Possibly Pope Pius’ encyclical (your quote) directed at the Nazies was not so easy for common Germans (nor even for us today) to use, to understand how to remain faithful to Jesus unto eternal life, under Nazi rule after all.

 

[bones_IV]

Hello Karin,

Bones disagrees with you.

Apples and oranges.
Steven Merten:

Possibly Pope Pius’ encyclical (your quote) directed at the Nazies was not so easy for common Germans (nor even for us today) to use, to understand how to remain faithful to Jesus unto eternal life, under Nazi rule after all.

Are you sure? The Gestapo said, "In a manner never know before…The Pope has repudiated the National Socialist New European Ord …It is true, the Pope doesn’t refer to the National Socialists in Germany by name, but his speech in one long attack on everything we stand for…Here he is clearly speaking on behalf of the Jews." (from a report of the Gestapo made on Pope Pius XII’s 1942 Christmas sermon to the world, qouted in Inside the Vatican, June 1997, 12). They said the same about the encyclical.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Joseph Ratzinger didn’t have a choice did he?

Hello bones,

Many devoute Catholics faithful to Jesus Christ chose to be shot by the Nazis for sedition rather than to join the German Army. Many devout Catholic children chose to go to German consentration camps rather than join the Hitler Youth. Some never returned.

Why is it you think these people had a choice that Joseph Ratzinger was somhow deprived of?

I am not trying to judge Pope Benedict XVI. I am simply demonstrating the tremendous need of Church leadership as to what the tens of millions of Catholics living in WWII era Germany and Italy should do for eternal salvation. This need for spiritual guidance into eternal life infinitely outweights a Popes thought to switch to some sort of red cross saving human life as his main objective. Stick to saving souls form eternal damnation in this time of great spiritual need and let the Red Cross focus on saving the Jews physical lives.

 

[bones_IV]

Hello bones,

Many devoute Catholics faithful to Jesus Christ chose to be shot by the Nazis for sedition rather than to join the German Army.

Sure. We’re not doubting that.
Steven Merten:

Many devout Catholic children chose to go to German consentration camps rather than join the Hitler Youth. Some never returned. Why is it you think these people had a choice that Joseph Ratzinger was somhow deprived of?

Joseph was forced into Hitler’s youth he had no choice it was mandatory.
Steve Merten:

I am not trying to judge Pope Benedict XVI. I am simply demonstrating the tremendous need of Church leadership as to what the tens of millions of Catholics living in WWII era Germany and Italy should do for eternal salvation. This need for spiritual guidance into eternal life infinitely outweights a Popes thought to switch to some sort of red cross saving human life as his main objective.

But it’s not the reality. To say the “This need for spiritual guidance into eternal life infinitely outweights a Pope’s thought to switch to some sort of red cross saving human life as his main objective” comes off as sounding anti-semitic. There was Church leadership in Germany. Take Bishop von Galen for example who was recently beatified. If he didn’t save lives and did what you’re suggesting that’s just crazy.
Stever Merten:

Stick to saving souls form eternal damnation in this time of great spiritual need and let the Red Cross focus on saving the Jews physical lives.

Stick to saving souls and leaving it to others to save Jews is Nazi cooperation. But the Church saved more lives than all the other organizations put together, about 860,000 of them. He ordered convents to hide Jews from the Nazis. Preaching to save souls and ignoring the suffering of the Jews is complacency and laziness. You’re not making sense.