Postpone Move To Beatify Pius Xii, Israeli Envoy Suggests

[Steven_Merten]

Joseph was forced into Hitler’s youth he had no choice it was mandatory.

Hello bones,

Why could not Joseph had chosen to go to a consentration camp or be shot by the Nazis for sedition rather than join Hitler Youth?

Some 80 to 90 percent of Germans joined the Hitler Youth and refusing to sign up could mean being sent to a youth ‘‘reeducation camp,’’ akin to a concentration camp, said Volker Dahm, director of Nazi-era research for Munich’s Institute for Contemporary History.

quoted from forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=51958

 

[Steven_Merten]

But the Church saved more lives than all the other organizations put together, about 860,000 of them.

It is a disgrace for you to state that the Church saved more Jewish lives than Allied Veterans. Allied Veterans saved the whole world, not the Church. The Church, according to your link, “opposed” the war. The Church in your link did not limit their opposition to the war to just German forces. The Church opposed American forces fighting as well. How would that have worked out for Pope Pius work in “saving” Jews had Allied forces obeyed his encyclical and not opposed Hitler with war?

The Church was against the war.
papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SUMMI.HTM

Is this what Catholic Beatification is all about. Just blindly pile up glorifications on popes regardless of what they actually did or did not do?

 

[bones_IV]

It is a disgrace for you to state that the Church saved more Jewish lives than Allied Veterans.

Then I guess Pinchas Lapide must be disgraceful too cause he too agree that the Church saved more Jewish lives than all the other relief organizations. I guess Isaac Herzog must have been disgraceful for thanking Pius for helping save Jewish lives. I guess Robert Graham must have disgraceful to say that the Catholic Church saved more Jewish lives than the other relief organizations. Keep living in your delusion world.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Then I guess Pinchas Lapide must be disgraceful too cause he too agree that the Church saved more Jewish lives than all the other relief organizations. I guess Isaac Herzog must have been disgraceful for thanking Pius for helping save Jewish lives. I guess Robert Graham must have disgraceful to say that the Catholic Church saved more Jewish lives than the other relief organizations. Keep living in your delusion world.

I do not know these who these people are who you claim believe that Pope Pius XII and the Catholic Church saved more Jewish lives than Allied Veterans, but if what you say is true, then there is great delusion in the world I and the Israelies live in.

Are there any Pope’s who believe in the delusion that Pope Pius XII and the Catholic Church saved more Jewish lives than Allied Veterans?

Did Pope Pius XII believe in the delusion that he still would have “saved” 800,000 Jewish lives even if Allied nations had obeyed him in not going to war against Hitler?

The Church was against the war.
papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SUMMI.HTM

Is this delusion that Pope Pius XII saved more lives than Allied Veterans the reason that the Church is trying to glorify Pope Pius XII rather than giving the thanks to Allied Veterans for saving the Jews from Hitler?

Has the Church told the Israelies that Pope Pius XII and the Church saved more Jewish lives than Allied Veterans? This would definitly be a qualifying reason for the Israeli Envoy to try to stop this insanity.

 

[geezerbob]

Come on, Steven, bones said organizations, not armies, then further qualified it by saying relief organizations. You’re reading something into his posts that he clearly did not say. I’m also amazed that you are trying to hold a young teenager to the same standards of decision making and conduct as you would an adult. Besides, he did desert, didn’t he? Why don’t you just come out and say point blank where you’re trying to go with this?

 

[Steven_Merten]

Come on, Steven, bones said organizations, not armies, then further qualified it by saying relief organizations. You’re reading something into his posts that he clearly did not say.

Hello bones,

Is this true? Do you and Catholic leaders clearly acknowledge and understand that the amount of life saved by “organizations” like the Catholic Church is extreemly little compared to the lives saved (the whole world) by Allied Veterans?

I am not sure why the military would not be considered an “organization”. I am certianly not sure why the military would not fit into the concept of being a relief organization. From what I see on the History Channel, the Germans were quite relieved to have WWII Allied troops break into their land and rescue them from the Nazies (relief).

Bones, do you agree with geezerbob that this is just a discrepancie in how you and I understand certian wording? Do you certianly agree that it was indeed Allied Veterans who were the real heros of WWII?

 

[Steven_Merten]

I’m also amazed that you are trying to hold a young teenager to the same standards of decision making and conduct as you would an adult. Besides, he did desert, didn’t he? Why don’t you just come out and say point blank where you’re trying to go with this?

Hello geezerbob,

Has Pope Benedict stated that, looking back, he wishes he would have chosen to be shot by the Nazies for sedition rather than to have joined the German army? Is this the “standard” that he would have judged himslef by had he been an adult rather than an 18 year old?

Are you stating that had Pope Benedict been an adult joining Hitler’s army, rather than an 18 year old, then he would have been guilty of mortal sin, intrinsic evil and if he died without the chance to repent, eternal damnation would have been almost eminant? Is this what you are saying?

“Point blank” what I am saying is, would it not have been better for Pope Pius to focus on guiding tens of millions of young Catholics into eternal life than to take some path of silently focusing on saving the lives of 800,000 Jews. Even the Jews that Pope Pius was “saving”, in order to truely be saved, still needed Allied troops to smash through and kill many of the tens of millions of German and Italian Catholics fighting for Hitler. Why not have the Pope focus his attention on the big issue? Leading German and Italian Catholics through their martyrdom, of being shot by the Nazis for refusing to kill for Hilter, and into eternal life? This to me would have been the logical, eternal soul saving, path for a Pope to take.

Had Pope Pius focused on guiding young nieve Catholics through their martyrdom of be shot by the Nazis for refusing to fight for Hitler, the overall people killed in WWII (80 million) would have dropped. Still the infinitely greater outcome is gaining souls entering into eternal life, rather than damnation, due to a faithful to Jesus shepard being there to guide them through their matyrdom.

Do you undersand, agree with and see the beautiful motherly love in the bible story of the martyrdom of a mother and her seven sons? Post #58 The mother stands faithful to God as she carfuly guides her seven sons through their martyrdom and into eternal life rather than eat pork in violation to God’s command. Do you see the logic, faith, love of the mother in the story. Is this not the same faithful love the German and Italian people, including young nieve Joseph Ratzinger, deserved from their Pope?

NAB 2 Macabees 7:26After he had urged her for a long time, she went through the motions of persuading her son. In derision of the cruel tyrant, she leaned over close to her son and said in their native language: “Son, have pity on me, who carried you in my womb for nine months, nursed you for three years, brought you up, educated and supported you to your present age. I beg you, child, to look at the heavens and the earth and see all that is in them; then you will know that God did not make them out of existing things; and in the same way the human race came into existence. Do not be afraid of this executioner, but be worthy of your brothers and accept death, so that in the time of mercy I may receive you again with them.”

She had scarcely finished speaking when the youth said: “What are you waiting for? I will not obey the king’s command. I obey the command of the law given to our forefathers through Moses. But you, who have contrived every kind of affliction for the Hebrews, will not escape the hands of God. We indeed, are suffering because of our sins. Though our living LORD treats us harshly for a little while to correct us with chastisements, he will again be reconciled with his servants. But you, wretch, vilest of all men! do not, in your insolence, concern yourself with unfounded hopes, as you raise your hand against the children of Heaven. You have not yet escaped the judgment of the almighty and all-seeing God. My brothers, after enduring brief pain, have drunk of never-failing life, under God’s covenant but you, by the judgment of God, shall receive just punishments for your arrogance.” “Like my brothers, I offer up my body and my life for our ancestral laws, imploring God to show mercy soon to our nation, and by afflictions and blows to make you confess that he alone is God.”…Thus he too died undefiled, putting all his trust in the LORD.

 

[bones_IV]

Hello bones,

Is this true? Do you and Catholic leaders clearly acknowledge and understand that the amount of life saved by “organizations” like the Catholic Church is extreemly little compared to the lives saved (the whole world) by Allied Veterans?

I’ll answer that one if you can answer me this one. Why didn’t the Allies bomb the railroad tracks leading to the Concentration camps? Why didn’t the Allies attempt to stop Hitler earlier as he constantly broke treaty after treaty? How do you account for that?
Steven Merten:

I am not sure why the military would not be considered an “organization”. I am certianly not sure why the military would not fit into the concept of being a relief organization. From what I see on the History Channel, the Germans were quite relieved to have WWII Allied troops break into their land and rescue them from the Nazies (relief).

Are you trying to pit the Church against the Allies?

 

[bones_IV]

More than 15 million military personnel were killed in action. Germany lost 3.5 million soldiers in battle, Japan lst 1.5 million and Italy lost 200,000. Among the Allies, the Soviets lost about 7.5 million, China lost 2.2 million soldiers, the British lost about 300,000 military personnel, the U.S. suffered about 292,000 losses and France lost 210,000.

The civilian caulties were even worse, almost 20 million.

Soviet union - 10 million
China- 6 million
France - 400,000
U.K. - 65,000
U.S.- 6,000

axis

Germany lost- 500,000
Japan lost 600,000
Italy - 145,000

Now many Germans had to face up to the question of their role in the War. Most of them however were victims of war. Many German families lost loved ones up front, most of them lost relatives or possessions in the bombing raids on German cities. Many Germans left their country following the war, those who remained suffered from severe hunger.

Of the 9 million Jews in Europe, 6 million of them died in concentration camps.

 

[Steven_Merten]

I’ll answer that one if you can answer me this one. Why didn’t the Allies bomb the railroad tracks leading to the Concentration camps? Why didn’t the Allies attempt to stop Hitler earlier as he constantly broke treaty after treaty? How do you account for that?

Do you agree that Pope Pius XII opposed the Allies going to war to stop Hitler? Did Pope Pius XII ask the Allies to go to war and bomb the German railroad tracks going to the concentration camps? Does not your link from Pope Pius XII, opposing war, oppose the Allies going to war to stop Hitler?

The Church was against the war.
papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SUMMI.HTM

 

[Steven_Merten]

Now many Germans had to face up to the question of their role in the War. Most of them however were victims of war. Many German families lost loved ones up front, most of them lost relatives or possessions in the bombing raids on German cities. Many Germans left their country following the war, those who remained suffered from severe hunger.

Hello bones,

Is it not true that Joseph Ratzinger, and tens of millions of other Catholic Germans and Italians, who chose to fight for Hitler rather than accept martyrdom, in their actions, greatly amplified the number of combatants and civilians killed in the conflict?

 

[bones_IV]

Do you agree that Pope Pius XII opposed the Allies going to war to stop Hitler? Did Pope Pius XII ask the Allies to go to war and bomb the German railroad tracks going to the concentration camps? Does not your link from Pope Pius XII, opposing war, oppose the Allies going to war to stop Hitler?

The Church was against the war.
papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SUMMI.HTM

Actually Steve, Pius XII provided the Allies with military information when he could, AND he supported the overthrowing of Adolf Hitler. How can you possibly say he was opposed to the Allies? He had countless people from America even President Roosevelts ambassador to the Vatican in private audiences. He provided the Allies for the trial of Nuremberg with the documents on how the Nazis persecuted the Church. No, Pius XII did not think WWII was unjust. He was condemning the ones that started the war.

 

[bones_IV]

Hello bones,

Is it not true that Joseph Ratzinger, and tens of millions of other Catholic Germans and Italians, who chose to fight for Hitler rather than accept martyrdom, in their actions, greatly amplified the number of combatants and civilians killed in the conflict?

It wasn’t that simple. Many of Germany’s citizens were victims of the third reich. My question is why blame the whole of Germany when it was the Nazi leaders who were on trial?

 

[Karin]

It wasn’t that simple. Many of Germany’s citizens were victims of the third reich. My question is why blame the whole of Germany when it was the Nazi leaders who were on trial?

yup and they still are paying for it now along with Austrians

 

[bones_IV]

yup and they still are paying for it now along with Austrians

Yes. Germany has to rebuid it’s country 3 times during the 20th century. Nazism, is one of the many things that led to radical secularism. Along with it, the denegration of family and religious values. You would think that with the demise of communism that countries like Austria and Germany would wake up and see the light. That makes it so easy for the bomb terrorists to take over Europe. They don’t even have to use violence to do it either.

 

[Steven_Merten]

It wasn’t that simple. Many of Germany’s citizens were victims of the third reich. My question is why blame the whole of Germany when it was the Nazi leaders who were on trial?

Hello bones,

In my post that you are now responding to, I was responding to your post #143 . In post 143 you were pointing out all the massive amount of civilian life lost in WWII.

The math is quite simple. The more millions of Germans who would have accepted martyrdom rather than kill for Hitler, the less Germans on the battle field. The less Germans on the battlefield the sooner Allied forces could put an end to the evil Nazies, Hitler, the third reich, the holocaust and the war.

As your numbers show, the more German manpower on the battle field, makes the amount of death go up expodentially rather than a linier, Axis soldier for Allied soldier, growth, due to the added loss of noncombatants. Regardless of whether tens of millions of Catholics killing for Hitler was moral or immoral, the statistical, expodential added number of dead in the conflict, due to millions of German’s who failed to choose martyrdom, and instead became a German soldier, are still a fact.

I will agree that it would be harder for Pope Pius XII to gain beatification had he guided Germans and Italians to their martyrdom rather than adding up Jews he had “saved”, still I think he would have saved far more physical life leading Germans and Italians through their martyrdom in refusing to kill for Hitler.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Actually Steve, Pius XII provided the Allies with military information when he could, AND he supported the overthrowing of Adolf Hitler. How can you possibly say he was opposed to the Allies? He had countless people from America even President Roosevelts ambassador to the Vatican in private audiences. He provided the Allies for the trial of Nuremberg with the documents on how the Nazis persecuted the Church. No, Pius XII did not think WWII was unjust. He was condemning the ones that started the war.

Hello bones,

Where in this Pope Pius encyclical that you had us read does the Pope point to the Axis nations as fighting and evil unjust war and the Allies fighting a just and righteous war? I agree that Pope Pius should have written an encyclical on the evils of the Axis nations and the righteous cause of the Allies but that did not happen in the encyclical that you had us read. The Pope Pius encyclical that you had us read is just another generic anti-war piece of paper, outside of the reality of combating the wicked, that most modern Popes write.

Please give us a good, realistic, link to where Pope Pius XII confirms that the Allies fought an honorable just war against the forces of wicked Hitler.

The Church was against the war.
papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SUMMI.HTM

 

[Karin]

Hello bones,

In my post that you are now responding to, I was responding to your post #143 . In post 143 you were pointing out all the massive amount of civilian life lost in WWII.

The math is quite simple. The more millions of Germans who would have accepted martyrdom rather than kill for Hitler, the less Germans on the battle field. The less Germans on the battlefield the sooner Allied forces could put an end to the evil Nazies, Hitler, the third reich, the holocaust and the war.

As your numbers show, the more German manpower on the battle field, makes the amount of death go up expodentially rather than a linier, Axis soldier for Allied soldier, growth, due to the added loss of noncombatants. Regardless of whether tens of millions of Catholics killing for Hitler was moral or immoral, the statistical, expodential added number of dead in the conflict, due to millions of German’s failure to choose martyrdom, instead of becoming a German soldier, are still a fact.

I will agree that it would be harder for Pope Pius XII to gain beatification had he guided Germans and Italians to their martyrdom rather than adding up Jews he had “saved”, still I think he would have saved far more physical life leading Germans and Italians through their martyrdom in refusing to kill for Hitler.

and you keep missing the point that people have FREE WILL to do with as they please…they knew what they where doing was wrong but CHOSE to do it anyway for whatever their reasons may of been.

 

[bones_IV]

Hello bones,

Where in this Pope Pius encyclical that you had us read does the Pope point to the Axis nations as fighting and evil unjust war and the Allies fighting a just and righteous war? I agree that Pope Pius should have written an encyclical on the evils of the Axis nations and the righteous cause of the Allies but that did not happen in the encyclical that you had us read. The Pope Pius encyclical that you had us read is just another generic anti-war piece of paper, outside of the reality of combating the wicked, that most modern Popes write.

Please give us a good, realistic, link to where Pope Pius XII confirms that the Allies fought an honorable just war against the forces of wicked Hitler.

The Church was against the war.
papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SUMMI.HTM

I just gave you information on how the Vatican helped the Allies defeat Hitler, but that’s not good enough for you is it? You’re hellbent on disproving Pius XII still aren’t you? Be a man and admit your wrong.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello bones,

Where in this Pope Pius encyclical that you had us read does the Pope point to the Axis nations as fighting and evil unjust war and the Allies fighting a just and righteous war? I agree that Pope Pius should have written an encyclical on the evils of the Axis nations and the righteous cause of the Allies but that did not happen in the encyclical that you had us read. The Pope Pius encyclical that you had us read is just another generic anti-war piece of paper, outside of the reality of combating the wicked, that most modern Popes write.

**Please give us a good, realistic, link to where Pope Pius XII confirms that the Allies fought an honorable just war against the forces of wicked Hitler. **

The Church was against the war.
papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SUMMI.HTM

I just gave you information on how the Vatican helped the Allies defeat Hitler, but that’s not good enough for you is it? You’re hellbent on disproving Pius XII still aren’t you? Be a man and admit your wrong.

Hello bones,

Actually I asked you, **“Please give us a good, realistic, link to where Pope Pius XII confirms that the Allies fought an honorable just war against the forces of wicked Hitler.” **

I spend quite a bit of time responding to quite a few, pacifist anti-war, non-violence, just war, type threads on CAF. A number of times different posters have said that no Pope, since the fall of States of the Church in 1870, have proclaimed any war as just. Some have said that no Pope, in good judgement, could call in a bombing airstrike which could kill non-combatants. Actually your claim that these are false statements is actually good news to me.

A recognized credible source quoting a Pope calling for violence and killing in war for the protection of the innocent will be a prized file on my hard drive. However, I cannot use a “bones says” as a source in discussing morality in killing in war on CAF threads. I need a recognized source that readers will find credible. Even if I believe you, I need a source that others will find credible.

Please, I would be extreemly greatful, if you would give me a credible source where Pope Pius XII professes that the Allies fought a just war in WWII. Or a credible source where Pope Pius called in a bombing strike, which could have even killed civilians, for the protection of the innocent.

Thank you in advance. Steven