Posture after the Agnus Dei

[JGMendes4049]

Is there any list of the dioceses in which the diocesan bishop has exercised his right to have the faithful not kneel after the Agnus Dei?

 

[PrayForMeStJude]

I suspect they would be heavily concentrated along the west coast or in the northeast. The Diocese of Stockton, under Bishop Stephen Blair, does not kneel following the Agnus Dei.

 

[lynnareyno]

The Diocese of Gaylord, Michigan has had everyone stand after the Agnus Dei and keep standing until after everyone has received communion. This is changing ( new bishop) when the new translation of the mass starts on Nov,. 27. When this was announced at the Marian Peace Conference everyone clapped.
In the Archdiocese of Detroit there are exceptions for churches without kneelers to stand after the Agnus Dei.
I am only familiar with those 2 dioceses and would also be interested in the answer OP’s question.

 

[corsair]

I have always knelt at the Agnus Dei in the OF.

 

[Brendan]

A few years ago, I was in Cleveland and went to Sunday Mass. Everyone remained standing after the Agnus Dei. I don’t know if it was just that parish, or the whole diocese.

 

[Brendan]

The Diocese of Gaylord, Michigan has had everyone stand after the Agnus Dei and keep standing until after everyone has received communion.

The first part is well within the authority of the bishop.

The second part ( remain standing until everyone recieves) is not.

Cardinal Francis George, chairman of the BCL, to submit a dubium (doubt, question) to the Holy See’s Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments (CDW) on May 26, 2003:

Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after having individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, to forbid this practice?

Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the CDW, responded to the question on June 5, 2003 (Prot. N. 855/03/L):

Responsum: Negative, et ad mensum [No, for this reason]. The mens [reasoning] is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on the one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.

adoremus.org/0703Kneel.html

. In the Archdiocese of Detroit there are exceptions for churches without kneelers to stand after the Agnus Dei.

There should not be too many of those parishes left. The construction of churches without kneelers was permitted under Cardinal Dearden.

But his sucessor Cardianl Szoka, and every bishop since, has mandated that if a parish does a renovation or expansion would be required to put kneelers in.

So the only churches that would be without kneelers are those that were constructed in the 70’s with no work done on them at all since the early 80’s

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Is there any list of the dioceses in which the diocesan bishop has exercised his right to have the faithful not kneel after the Agnus Dei?

In my Diocese (Rochester, NY) our Bishop has left it up to the individual pastor.
Most parishes remain standing, maybe about 10% kneel.

 

[centurionguard]

Is there any list of the dioceses in which the diocesan bishop has exercised his right to have the faithful not kneel after the Agnus Dei?

Increasingly across Canadian Dioceses, parishes are now without kneelers which sadly is a growing trend.

My present Parish built in 1882 is virtually the only surviving parish which still has usuable kneelers. And yes we still kneel at the consecration, though some visitors in the congregation choose to stand. Fact is though there’s talk about having the Kneelers removed altogether.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Increasingly across Canadian Dioceses, parishes are now without kneelers which sadly is a growing trend.

My present Parish built in 1882 is virtually the only surviving parish which still has usuable kneelers. And yes we still kneel at the consecration, though some visitors in the congregation choose to stand. Fact is though there’s talk about having the Kneelers removed altogether.

That’s ridiculous.

 

[Phemie]

That’s ridiculous.

But you shouldn’t be surprised to learn that it was tried in our parish also. The Sister and the Catechetical coordinator were all for it but I suggested having a survey done. Surprise, surprise, they were the only people who wanted that to happen so in the end we ended up keeping our kneelers. Then they succeeded in talking the pastor into stopping kneeling altogether during Mass.

The Canadian Bishops have not made adaptations to the GIRM where posture is concerned. The new GIRM will still call for kneeling only at Consecration, just like it does now, but maybe now people will actually know that kneeling is called for – there are many parishes where kneeling has been totally abandoned.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Yeah, and I thought the US was in a poor state regarding masses, lol.

 

[armywife]

The Archdiocese of Seattle’s former Bishop made the call. We have a new Archbishop but he hasn’t made any changes yet. (I’m waiting) We’ve only lived here a year and moving from the Midwest it was a bit of a shock.

I do remain standing after the Agnus Dei, but I kneel after communion. I don’t care, I have to be able to focus and pray.

 

[MissRose73]

I am in Michigan, and many churches in my diocese of Saginaw do not have kneelers. I make it a point to attend Mass as much as possible at places that have kneelers as for me kneeling without kneelers is very painful for me physically. I hope that kneelers make a return in more parishes with the new Mass updates.

The few churches I have been going to do have kneelers, and we kneel from after the Sanctus to the Pater Noster then from the finish of the Agnus Dei till going to Communion and after Communion is finished.

 

[zab]

The Archdiocese of Seattle’s former Bishop made the call. We have a new Archbishop but he hasn’t made any changes yet. (I’m waiting) We’ve only lived here a year and moving from the Midwest it was a bit of a shock.

I do remain standing after the Agnus Dei, but I kneel after communion. I don’t care, I have to be able to focus and pray.

I live in the Archdiocese of Seattle, too. I don’t know what they are doing in your parish, but the Archbishop did make the clarification that when coming back from Communion we may choose whatever posture we want. The people in our parish kneel when coming back from Communion. I don’t know why our previous Archbishop chose to change our posture to remain standing after the Angus Dei, but to his credit, it was a time when all parishes throughout the United States were implementing changes following the issue of the document Redemptionis Sacramentum, correcting many liturgical abuses that had crept in over the past decades. Not one parish in our Archdiocese was free from making any changes. Our pastors had already eliminated most if not all of the abuses before the changes took place including replacing our crystal cups with silver and gold plated interior for distribution of the Precious Blood. So one of the very few changes that our parish had to do was to follow the valid direction of our Archbishop to remain standing after the Agnus Dei. We are a faithful parish and we follow the direction of our bishop.

 

[jimrob]

In England and Wales, the practice is to kneel, although we don’t burn people who insist on standing or sitting. In Italy, the congregation tends to be evenly divided between those who kneel for the Eucharistic Prayer and after the Agnus Dei and those who stand throughout.

 

[OraLabora]

Increasingly across Canadian Dioceses, parishes are now without kneelers which sadly is a growing trend.

My present Parish built in 1882 is virtually the only surviving parish which still has usuable kneelers. And yes we still kneel at the consecration, though some visitors in the congregation choose to stand. Fact is though there’s talk about having the Kneelers removed altogether.

In French Quebec it has never been common practice to kneel after the Agnus Dei, for as long as I can remember. We kneel at the consecration, and again after communion.

All of the churches in my locale have kneelers. The only person I know who stands at the consecration at the abbey where I go to Mass, is a Ukrainian Catholic; fwiw he also crosses himself the “wrong” way, three times at a shot

Typically I sit in the first pew at the abbey because I like to chant along with the monks, and that pew doesn’t have kneelers. I kneel on the granite floor. I will keep doing that for as long as my creaky knees will allow it. But as for posture I follow the (very orthodox) monks and they don’t kneel after the Agnus Dei either.

 

[JGMendes4049]

This discussion only concerns the provision for the diocesan bishops in the diocese of the United States of America to determine that the faithful should not kneel after the Agnus Dei. There is no such provision in Canada, so there’s no need to discuss that. I have quoted the Latin (universal) GIRM and the English GIRMs with adaptations for Canada and the United States for your perusal:

Latin GIRM:
[43.] Est tamen Conferentiae Episcoporum, gestus et corporis habitus in Ordine Missæ descriptos ingenio et rationabilibus populorum traditionibus ad normam iuris aptare. Attendendum tamen erit, ut sensui et indoli cuiusque partis celebrationis respondeant. Ubi mos est, populum ab acclamatione Sanctus expleta usque ad finem Precis eucharisticae genuflexum manere, hic laudabiliter retinetur.

United States GIRM:
[43.] In the Dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

Canadian GIRM:
[43.] In the dioceses of Canada, the faithful should kneel at the Consecration, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. Where it is the practice for the people to remain kneeling after the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer and before Communion when the Priest says Ecce Agnus Dei (This is the Lamb of God), it is laudable for this practice to be retained.

Perhaps one of our in–house Latin gurus can give us a slavishly literal translation of the Latin GIRM 43, à la Father Z.

 

[Phemie]

This discussion only concerns the provision for the diocesan bishops in the diocese of the United States of America to determine that the faithful should not kneel after the Agnus Dei. There is no such provision in Canada, so there’s no need to discuss that. I have quoted the Latin (universal) GIRM and the English GIRMs with adaptations for Canada and the United States for your perusal:

Latin GIRM:[43.] Est tamen Conferentiae Episcoporum, gestus et corporis habitus in Ordine Missæ descriptos ingenio et rationabilibus populorum traditionibus ad normam iuris aptare. Attendendum tamen erit, ut sensui et indoli cuiusque partis celebrationis respondeant. Ubi mos est, populum ab acclamatione Sanctus expleta usque ad finem Precis eucharisticae genuflexum manere, hic laudabiliter retinetur.United States GIRM:[43.] In the Dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.Canadian GIRM:[43.] In the dioceses of Canada, the faithful should kneel at the Consecration, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. Where it is the practice for the people to remain kneeling after the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer and before Communion when the Priest says Ecce Agnus Dei (This is the Lamb of God), it is laudable for this practice to be retained.Perhaps one of our in–house Latin gurus can give us a slavishly literal translation of the Latin GIRM 43, à la Father Z.

The GIRM for England and Wales doesn’t imbed the adaptations into the text of the article itself.

"[43] (…) But they should kneel at the consecration, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.

Nevertheless, it is up to the Conference of Bishops to adapt the gestures and postures described in the Order of Mass to the culture and reasonable traditions of the people. The Conference, however, must make sure that such adaptations correspond to the meaning and character of each part of the celebration. Where it is the practice for the people to remain after the *Sanctus *until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer and before Communion when the priest says Ecce Agnus Dei (This is the Lamb of God), this practice is laudably retained."

 

[JGMendes4049]

The GIRM for England and Wales doesn’t imbed the adaptations into the text of the article itself.

[43.] …] But they should kneel at the consecration, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.

Nevertheless, it is up to the Conference of Bishops to adapt the gestures and postures described in the Order of Mass to the culture and reasonable traditions of the people. The Conference, however, must make sure that such adaptations correspond to the meaning and character of each part of the celebration. Where it is the practice for the people to remain after the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer and before Communion when the priest says Ecce Agnus Dei (This is the Lamb of God), this practice is laudably retained.

Thank you Phemie. :thankyou: May I ask where you would get the GIRM for England and Wales online, and has it been revised, like the U.S. one has?

 

[Phemie]

Thank you Phemie. :thankyou: May I ask where you would get the GIRM for England and Wales online, and has it been revised, like the U.S. one has?

liturgyoffice.org.uk/Resources/GIRM/Documents/GIRM.pdf

It was published in 2005 and as far as I can tell, it’s not been revised since – but that may be because their adaptations are not in the body of the GIRM itself.

It’s disappointing that when you access the GIRM on the Vatican website you are given the one with the USCCB’s adaptations rather than the universal one.