Poverty Each Year Kills 900,000 Children

[Ani_Ibi]

KathleenElsie:

Please read about who runs this site. What he believes and how he and others slant their information.

Yes, the author runs his site on a part-time basis. All answers to challenges to his decisions use the ‘part-time basis’ as an excuse.

Note there is no section for solutions. Big section for problems though.

He uses marxian terminology yet insists he his views are not Marxist or Communist.

 

[Matt25]

Ani Ibi:

Originally Posted by Evangel
This does not answer Evangel’s question. Please apply the JWD to your theory – section by section.

No. The JWD is only binding in one direction. Catholics are obliged not to exceed its bounds by excess violence. They are permitted to exceed its bounds by excercising heroic virtues. See the Catechism-

2306 Those who renounce violence and bloodshed and, in order to safeguard human rights, make use of those means of defense available to the weakest, bear witness to evangelical charity, provided they do so without harming the rights and obligations of other men and societies. They bear legitimate witness to the gravity of the physical and moral risks of recourse to violence, with all its destruction and death.

Also the JWD may need to be revised according to the then Cardinal Ratzinger who said “There were not sufficient reasons to unleash a war against Iraq. To say nothing of the fact that, given the new weapons that make possible destructions that go beyond the combatant groups, today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a ‘just war’.”

 

[Matt25]

Ani Ibi:

Yes, the author runs his site on a part-time basis. All answers to challenges to his decisions use the ‘part-time basis’ as an excuse.

Note there is no section for solutions. Big section for problems though.

He uses marxian terminology yet insists he his views are not Marxist or Communist.

Are his facts wrong?

 

[krokal]

What marxist terminology does he use exactly?

Matt, are you involved in the ONE Campaing? I encourage you to check their website.

 

[Matt25]

gnat:

What marxist terminology does he use exactly?

Matt, are you involved in the ONE Campaing? I encourage you to check their website.

Well the Make Poverty History Campaign brought a couple of hundred thousand people here to my home city of Edinburgh earlier this year for the G8. Also the Vatican sent a message to my Archbishop. See nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/word070805.htm

Last Saturday will no doubt be remembered primarily for the “Live 8” concerts around the world, but the same day also saw a rally of 200,000 people in Edinburgh, Scotland, ahead of the G-8 summit, demanding justice for the world’s poor. The event was part of the “Make Poverty History” campaign.

The rally had a decidedly Catholic flavor.

In the front lines among the protestors were Cardinals Keith O’Brien of Edinburgh, and Cormac Murphy-O’Connor of Westminster, England.

O’Brien said he is “scandalized by the needless suffering poverty causes,” which he described as “a crime against humanity, a great injustice and one to which we must all respond. To be passive or indifferent is to be an accomplice in barbarity.”

O’Brien recently visited Ethiopia, and said the experience has strengthened his commitment to anti-poverty efforts.

“Such conditions are all too often commonplace, such conditions destroy human dignity, such conditions shame us all,” he said.

“Listen to the voice of your people!” O’Brien said. He urged politicians to remind themselves of “the great good it is in their power to deliver.”

Pope Benedict XVI also sent a message to the rally. The full text of his message, addressed to O’Brien, follows.

“The Holy Father was pleased to be informed of the Make Poverty History rally beginning on Saturday 2 July in Edinburgh in preparation for the G8 summit. He sends greetings to all who are gathered for this event, united by their concern for the welfare of millions of our brothers and sisters afflicted by extreme poverty. As the Second Vatican Council teaches, ‘God intended the earth and all it contains for the use of everyone and of all peoples; so that the good things of creation should be available equally to all’ (Gaudium et Spes, 69). For this reason, people from the world’s richest countries should be prepared to accept the burden of debt reduction for heavily indebted poor countries, and should urge their leaders to fulfill the pledges made to reduce world poverty, especially in Africa, by the year 2015. His Holiness prays for the participants in the rally and for the world leaders soon to gather at Gleneagles, that they may all play their part in ensuring a more just distribution of the world’s goods. In the ardent hope that the scourge of global poverty may one day be consigned to history, he cordially imparts his Apostolic Blessing.”

 

[Matt25]

Cardinal O’Brien also gave two talks at the World Youth Day events in Cologne recently. The second of which was “LIVING IN THE WORLD AS TRUE WORSHIPERS OF GOD” during which he said scmo.org/_titles/view.asp?id=421

I think also of those in many of our different organisations dedicated to helping those in need particularly those who help to give voice to the voiceless.

Just a few months ago in Edinburgh almost a quarter of a million people gathered to take part in the Make Poverty History Campaign. They came from all over Scotland, all over Britain and for many of them from distant parts of the world. They did not come for their own sake they came quite simply to give voice to the voiceless.

Perhaps two of the most moving Masses which I have celebrated were at the beginning and the end of that great rally. I began my day with Mass in my Cathedral inspiring those who had gathered there to concentrate on the Eucharist and to bring the Eucharist with them in their bodies, in their thoughts and in their every action to the gathering which was soon to take place.

At the end of the day again at Mass I stated that we had taken part in a wonderful occasion; there had been outstanding people present; and we had indeed given voice to the voiceless in crying out to the G8 Leaders further north in Scotland to Make Poverty History. That our words were not heeded in exactly the ways in which we would have wished is of no consequence – although we thought we had deserved better. We know that our voices were heard; and we are aware that our voices will have an affect in those corridors of power.

And that is what we must think of today: “We are the Church and we must act like the living body of Jesus Christ”.

You, yourself know of the occasions when you can and you must speak out; you yourself know of the occasions when you must not stand by but you must move into action! And your every action must be inspired by the love of Christ in the Eucharist, that Eucharist which you share with your sisters and brothers in your communities…

 

[Evangel]

Matt25:

You think you know more about the Catholic Faith than Pope John Paul II did?

I think I know what the Magisterium knows. The question on the table is ‘do you know what the Magisterium knows?’

 

[Evangel]

globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/BigBusiness.asp

Where’s the part that is the source for the double assertion?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Matt25:

Are his facts wrong?

Well, are they?

 

[Evangel]

Matt25:

No. The JWD is only binding in one direction. Catholics are obliged not to exceed its bounds by excess violence. They are permitted to exceed its bounds by excercising heroic virtues. See the Catechism-

2306 Those who renounce violence and bloodshed and, in order to safeguard human rights, make use of those means of defense available to the weakest, bear witness to evangelical charity, provided they do so without harming the rights and obligations of other men and societies. They bear legitimate witness to the gravity of the physical and moral risks of recourse to violence, with all its destruction and death.

Also the JWD may need to be revised according to the then Cardinal Ratzinger who said “There were not sufficient reasons to unleash a war against Iraq. To say nothing of the fact that, given the new weapons that make possible destructions that go beyond the combatant groups, today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a ‘just war’.”

JWD is doctrine. The self-restraint used by the U.S. seems to answers Cdl. Ratzinger’s rhetorical quite well.

Nevertheless, you still have not answered the question on the union of the two statements. It still seems to me that the anti-war types are ignoring doctrine in favor of an out-of-context quote of a prudential judgement.

 

[Evangel]

Matt25:

No. The JWD is only binding in one direction. Catholics are obliged not to exceed its bounds by excess violence.

So is not JPII talking to those who (a) without legitimate authority engage in violence and “war” to obtain their ends and (b) use a “climate of terror, intimidation and death” to obtain their ends?

 

[Evangel]

Matt25:

Pope John Paul II ireland.com/focus/papaldeath/drogheda.htm

Public opinion is growing in consciousness of the absurdity of war as a means to resolve differences.

Do you have a link to this on the Vatican site? I can’t find it. I used Google to try and find half a dozen short quotes and also the location, and I came up empty each time.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Evangel:

It still seems to me that the anti-war types are ignoring doctrine in favor of an out-of-context quote of a prudential judgement.

Ah!

I suspect that the recent avalanche of out-of-context quotes is more along the lines of a nod’s as good as a wink. A dig to be understood among like minds – kind of like a secret handshake.

If they were not a kind of secret handshake, then we would be in a discussion of what the out-of-context quotes mean, what effect the quotes have, what function they serve and other questions normal to the curious mind and spirit.

But we are not. We are instead subjected to more put downs like “Do you know where Wales is?” Note that I have received no thanks for posting the link to the Anti-Terrorism Act.

Nor have I received any acknowledgement for knowing that Wales is where the London bombers went white-water rafting before they indulged in their twisted version of Mornington Crescent.

I wonder why that is? Oh by the way, a nod’s as good as wink.

 

[Matt25]

Evangel:

Do you have a link to this on the Vatican site? I can’t find it. I used Google to try and find half a dozen short quotes and also the location, and I came up empty each time.

I can’t find a link to the whole Drogheda Homily on the Vatican site. He did quote himself though in his Day of Peace Message 1980 vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/messages/peace/documents/hf_jp-ii_mes_19791208_xiii-world-day-for-peace_en.html

**Selective indignation, sly insinuations, the manipulation of information, the systematic discrediting of opponents - their persons, intentions and actions** - blackmail and intimidation: these are forms of non-truth working to develop a climate of uncertainty aimed   at forcing individuals, groups, governments, and even international organizations to keep silence in helplessness and complicity, to surrender their principles in part or to react in an irrational way. All these attitudes are equally capable of favouring the murderous game of violence and of attacking the cause of peace...

The Gospel places in striking relief the bond between falsehood and murderous violence, in the words of Christ: “As it is, you want to kill me when I tell you the truth as I have learnt it from God … What you are doing is what your father does … The devil is your father, and you prefer to do what your father wants. He was a murderer from the start; he was never grounded in the truth; there is no truth in him at all; when he lies he is drawing on his own store, because he is a liar, and the father of lies” (Jn 8: 40, 41, 44 ). This is why I was able to say with such conviction at Drogheda in Ireland and why I now repeat: “Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity … do not believe in violence; do not support violence. It is not the Christian way. It is not the way of the Catholic Church. Believe in peace and forgiveness and love; for they are of Christ” (nos. 9-10).

Yes, the Gospel of Christ is a Gospel of peace: "Blessed are the peacemakers; they shall be called children of God" (*Mt* 5: 9). And the driving force of evangelical peace is truth. Jesus revealed to man the full truth about man; he restores man in the truth about himself by reconciling him with God, by reconciling him with himself and by reconciling him with others. Truth is the driving power of peace because it reveals and brings about the unity of man with God, with himself and with others. Forgiveness and reconciliation are constitutive elements   of the truth which strengthens peace and which builds up peace. To refuse forgiveness and reconciliation is for us to lie and to enter into the murderous logic of falsehood.

 

[Evangel]

Matt25:

Are his facts wrong?

Well, his assumptions are obviously wrong.

1 - Those with legitmate authority have an obligation to protect and safeguard those under their authority. Where does the site draw the distinction between those who operate with legitimate authority and those who do not?

2 - The site conflates nuclear weapons technology transfers and the sale of mre’s.

3 - The site blames globalization for poverty as if poverty didn’t exist before globalization. The site ignores religion, tribalism, history, local government misbehavior, local conflicts, etc., all of which I would argue have a greater impact on poverty than Walmart buying shoes from the Philippines.

4 - Perhaps unintentionally, the site offers up marxist analyses (which must be rejected), reducing the problem to a rich vs. poor, capitalist vs. proletariat conflict.

 

[Matt25]

Evangel:

JWD is doctrine. The self-restraint used by the U.S. seems to answers Cdl. Ratzinger’s rhetorical quite well.

Nevertheless, you still have not answered the question on the union of the two statements. It still seems to me that the anti-war types are ignoring doctrine in favor of an out-of-context quote of a prudential judgement.

The then Prefect of the Congregation for the Defence of the Faith was probably aware of the status of the Just War Doctrine. That which you described as rhetorical was said during an interview about the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church so it is doubly unlikely to have been contrary to the teachings of the Magisterium but judge for yourself zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=34882

Q: Eminence, a topical question that in a certain sense is inherent to the Catechism: Does the Anglo-American war against Iraq fit the canons of a “just war”?

Cardinal Ratzinger: The Pope expressed his thought with great clarity, not only as his individual thought but as the thought of a man who is knowledgeable in the highest functions of the Catholic Church. Of course, he did not impose this position as doctrine of the Church but as the appeal of a conscience enlightened by faith.

The Holy Father’s judgment is also convincing from the rational point of view: There were not sufficient reasons to unleash a war against Iraq. To say nothing of the fact that, given the new weapons that make possible destructions that go beyond the combatant groups, today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a “just war.”

 

[Evangel]

Matt25:

I can’t find a link to the whole Drogheda Homily on the Vatican site. He did quote himself though in his Day of Peace Message 1980 vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/messages/peace/documents/hf_jp-ii_mes_19791208_xiii-world-day-for-peace_en.html

Well, I’m hard pressed to accept your “Drogheda Homily” as coming from JPII then. I’ve been pretty impressed to date with the Vatican’s site containing all manner of utterances from the Holy Father. Looking further, I found this Vatican page that lists all(?) of JPII’s “homilies” in 1979, including those given during his international travels. There is nothing listed for Oct 29, 1979.

Is it possible that this homily is an urban legend?

 

[MikeWM]

Evangel:

Well, I’m hard pressed to accept your “Drogheda Homily” as coming from JPII then.

He certainly made a homily in Drogheda in October 1979, as the current Pope recently made reference to it:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/angelus/2005/documents/hf_ben-xvi_ang_20050731_en.html

The reference makes it sound similar to what it is reported as being.

Mike

 

[Evangel]

Found it!!

Not October 29 but September 29, 1979

It was given in Italian.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/homilies/1979/documents/hf_jp-ii_hom_19790929_irlanda-dublino-drogheda_it.html

ORIGINAL: La pubblica opinione sta prendendo sempre più coscienza dell’assurdità della guerra come mezzo per risolvere le discriminazioni.

IRELAND.COM TRANS: Public opinion is growing in consciousness of the absurdity of war as a means to resolve differences.

MY TRANS: Public opinion is becoming more conscious of the absurdity of war-like means in order to resolve discriminations.

First, I am not claiming Italian expertise. I will bow to any more skilled. But I do think I am much closer to the original than your source.

And it seems to me the difference is absolutely crucial. JPII was in Ireland talking to those who, without legitimate authority, engage in terror (“war-like means”) to obtain their goals. This is absolutely different from a legitimate JWD action. JPII is not talking about war waged by a legitimate authority but about those who use “war-like means” (aka “violence”) to achieve their “justice”. JPII is saying terror doesn’t work. That is perfectly compatible with JWD and I fully agree.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Selective indignation, sly insinuations, the manipulation of information, the systematic discrediting of opponents - their persons, intentions and actions - blackmail and intimidation: these are forms of non-truth working to develop a climate of uncertainty aimed at forcing individuals, groups, governments, and even international organizations to keep silence in helplessness and complicity, to surrender their principles in part or to react in an irrational way. All these attitudes are equally capable of favouring the murderous game of violence and of attacking the cause of peace…

Whew! Powerful language, n’est-ce pas? Gives a soul pause for self-reflection.