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St_Francis
Guest
What are the inaccurate ideas that you see?
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Shredderbeam
Guest
The following:
No, they’re on government benefits so they don’t die of starvation/exposure. Also, there’s no masters ordering these people.
That’s the federal budget over decades. Not really so significant as it sounds.Not so ironically, that’s about the federal budget debt.
Now I don’t know about destruction of virtue, but here I actually agree - there should be a “soft fade” so working doesn’t immediately cut off 100% of benefits.
Generally speaking, the poor very frequently cannot afford higher education, at least in the U.S.
Not being able to predict the future doesn’t change whether students or taxpayers are paying for college.
True, but sounds very much like victim-blaming.
Eliminating poverty = expanding CAPITALISM? Most of the world is capitalist at the moment, why are there still millions of people dying every year due to preventable causes?
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KS_Housewife
Guest
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
I am in Australia, however have been to USA more then once.
In Australia the fastest growing group of homeless is the over 50s woman. It’s not the exception.
Charities should not be expected to pick up al, the slack.
It’s everyone’s responsibility.
In USA, one huge homeless group is ex service people.
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Rau
Guest
It is true that capitalism lifted millions out of poverty (eg. the developed and developing countries).
It is simultaneously true that after many decades of capitalism, poverty levels in the developed world is disturbingly high.
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One area it has been successful is in destroying the black family in America, dramatically increasing the out-of-wedlock birthdate over the last 50 years.
But going to college isn’t the determining factor for poverty. Finishing high school is.
But it isn’t as hard as one thinks to make broad predictions: technology/IT, healthcare, education, a business major, to name a few. Avoid the majors that have no obvious application or pathway to a broad array of employment opportunities.
usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/2016-07-21/top-college-majors-for-finding-full-time-work
The level of poverty is no lower in the United States now than it was at the beginning of the Great Society programs. The government war on poverty is a failure because it was ill conceived.
One area it has been successful is in destroying the black family in America, dramatically increasing the out-of-wedlock birthdate over the last 50 years.
the Great Society programs started in 1967. So, yes, over decades
This country spends billions on making education available. The cost of getting into community college is often means tested. There are Pell Grants, private scholarships.
But going to college isn’t the determining factor for poverty. Finishing high school is.
The point of my post is to pick a major that gives one the greatest opportunity to find a good job after college. If you pick wrong, lateral entry programs in most states offer a pathway into teaching.
But it isn’t as hard as one thinks to make broad predictions: technology/IT, healthcare, education, a business major, to name a few. Avoid the majors that have no obvious application or pathway to a broad array of employment opportunities.
usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/2016-07-21/top-college-majors-for-finding-full-time-work
. It it’s true, it isn’t victim blaming. If you drop out of high school, if you have a child before you are married and have a job, you aren’t a victim. Poverty is potentially then self-imposed
most of the third world is not capitalist. They are either socialist or corrupt tyrannies. These are the two main causes of poverty in the world. Venezuela is a glaring example.
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DarkLight
Guest
Certain parts of IT are actually starting to get oversaturated.
It was that way with law for me. When I went into college, a philosophy degree was a great way to get into law school, and law was a sure-fire path to a decent job. Well, the first one’s still true, but the second has switched to being heavily oversaturated.
I would also point out that, obviously, not everyone is suited for everything. I have a friend who tried very hard to get into a STEM field to get a good job. She just couldn’t do it - no matter how hard she tried she just couldn’t make her brain work that way.
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St_Francis
Guest
The usual implication of a statement like this is that the benefits are structured to keep poor people on the dole, knowing that people on benefits will probably vote for those who espouse continuing or increasing benefits over those who do not. The logic indicates that the motive being explained is not that of those receiving benefits, as you have pointed out, but that of those determining the structure.
I think it may be significant but would take a lot of sorting out to see.
You may not think of chastity as a virtue, but surely you think that controlling one’s impulses is? Would you raise your children to do whatever when ever the whim struck them? If it feels good, do it?
When welfare was first instituted, because it was for widows and abadoned mothers, welfare workers would come to the houses of the benefits recipient to make sure there was no man in the picture. This was brought to court and the practice ended, but the ability of people to receive benefits, especially health (Medicaid) was greatly restricted from married couples.
This gravely affected families who fell into poverty, say if the father was injured and couldn’t work, then the parents had to split up in order that the children be able to eat.
Gradually, women realized that they could replace one “wallet” (their husbands) with another (the government’s). Believe me, women totally understand this. It’s one thing when a woman leaves an abusive spouse–I’m not talking about that, but a different thing when a woman leaves her husband rather than to work things through and continue the marriage.
(must run, will continue later)
Generally speaking, the poor very frequently cannot afford higher education, at least in the U.S.
Not being able to predict the future doesn’t change whether students or taxpayers are paying for college.
True, but sounds very much like victim-blaming.
Eliminating poverty = expanding CAPITALISM? Most of the world is capitalist at the moment, why are there still millions of people dying every year due to preventable causes?
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Monte_RCMS
Guest
STEM jobs pay well and allow flexibility to find work in diverse industries.
The problem is that as the “valley girls” state: “Math is hard”.
The problem is that as the “valley girls” state: “Math is hard”.
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DarkLight
Guest
I think a better way to put it might be that different people have different aptitudes. I’ve known one or two people who tried very hard and just could not wrap their heads around the math involved.
I think it’s a real lost that we’re making it harder and harder to get anywhere without a degree. I have a friend who dropped out of college, got a retail job, and worked his way up to a management position. That’s becoming harder and harder to do - now when my workplace hires for managers, you have to have a college degree, preferably in management or business.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
It would be nice if people chose majors and career paths with some idea whether the path would still be viable 5 or 10 years down the road. I was lucky in that respect and had a father who was a labor analyst and drilled that sort of long term thinking into me. Having said that, persons who are poor are sometimes elderly or disabled or had a sudden setback like an illness or bad divorce, but more often than that, they are used to a poverty culture and don’t have the resources or mindset to take themselves out of it. The St. Vincent De Paul society does a great training on this for its volunteers. I learned a lot taking it, and I would urge anyone who is interested in this subject to try to take it and maybe consider volunteering for them if you really want to help the poor (warning: it can be very frustrating, which is one thing addressed by the training).
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DarkLight
Guest
I think the idea that an 18 year old should choose a career that’s going to define their job opportunities for the rest of their lives isn’t great to start with. I had some vague idea at 18 on careers, but I don’t think I had any serious idea about job markets or long term viability, and I don’t think I’d even have known were to start looking.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Two things. First, if an 18-year-old isn’t ready to make these kinds of decisions or commitment, he or she should not be spending four to five figures a year in tuition and expenses till they are ready. I know plenty of 18-year-olds who make these decisions just fine, including me, my husband, children of some friends, etc. Sure, the career might not last a lifetime - I changed careers after 13 years in the first one - but it lasts long enough to get you launched in adult life and give you some resources to take the next step.
Second, if you need to wait and figure out what you want to do in life, then feel free to explore all that, but not while racking up huge loans yearly with no viable way of paying them. This is basic common sense and no reason why an 18-year-old can’t understand it. There is no shame in waiting to attend college till you really know what you want to do and have a reasonable plan to pay any debt or not incur it, and a backup plan.
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DarkLight
Guest
I don’t know, when I was 18, the idea as presented to me was definitely “you have to go to college right away or you are a lazy failure.” The idea of waiting to go to college until you knew what you wanted to do was for spoiled trust fund babies. That seems to be a very common attitude nowadays.
Second, a lot of people my age found that you cannot easily find a job that makes a living wage with a high school degree and nothing else. There’s a trend in many areas that unskilled work is part-time, open availability. Which means you have to cobble together 2-3 jobs to support yourself, but it’s hard to find those 2-3 jobs because people don’t want to be your second or third job.
Third, what looks like a great plan with a high likelihood of success to an 18 year old whose advisers haven’t looked at the job market for new grads in 20 years is probably not the most accurate. The fact that a field is a good bet now might not mean it’ll be a good bet in a few years, especially if you’ll need an advanced degree.
Well, of course one makes decisions to one’s gifts. But make decisions that have a pathway to employment
Tis_Bearself
Patron
You are correct that society pressures high school grads to go to college. I don’t like it either. In some countries where college is free to all, they have more lawyers than they can ever use, but have to import plumbers from some other country as they don’t have enough to build houses and fix toilets. Unfortunately, anyone who says college should not be the way for everyone is considered politically incorrect, and there are many marginal colleges that probably should go out of business, but if they all closed down then many teachers and admins would be out of a job. It’s a sad mess and crippling debt may be the only thing that can eventually bring the insanity to a halt.
The complaint about jobs just means you have to get motivated and make some good decisions about moving forward with your life. I wish I had more understanding of why some people seem able to do this and others don’t. In many cases the people I know who were motivated when young (including myself and my husband ) came from families with limited resources where it was expected the young people would become financially independent by their early 20s, as the parents weren’t in a position to keep supporting them. In my case my father was seriously ill and I thought I might have to support him and my mom, so I felt a need to get responsible fast.
Advisors, phooey. One thing every college student should know is that many of the people working at colleges have their own agendas and that some are competent and some are not. You need to do your own research and talk to people in a field and do internships and see what it’s about, especially if you’re not going into field that you already have relatives working in (in which case you pick up a lot by osmosis ). This is also a life lesson as when you are out in the real world with bosses and other authority figures, they don’t always have the answers either and may encourage you to do things that aren’t that beneficial to you.
This is all part of being an adult and it’s normal to make mistakes, which are opportunities to learn and do better next time, not excuses to blame everybody else for your problems in life.
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DarkLight
Guest
My point is, if the “mistake” is “going to college and ending up with a degree you can’t use”…that ends up being a pretty hard mistake to recover from, especially if you thought it was one that had pretty good employment prospects and went into debt to get it.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Mistakes usually aren’t easy things. There are plenty of people who get good jobs in their field and then get laid off or the company closes down through no fault of their own. I have friends who had to take huge pay cuts, change fields of work, or be unemployed or underemployed for long periods. This is part of life, just as an unexpected health crisis would be. I had a dad who was sick for years; I’ve lost jobs a couple times through no fault of mine and I had to figure out what to do. None of these things are pleasant, but everybody has their crosses in life and we need to accept these things and work through the challenges, asking God to please help us as we do our part to figure out a solution.
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DarkLight
Guest
I worry that there’s a difference between when we’re in a situation ourselves, or personally advising someone, and when we’re looking at societal attitudes or who we should provide help to. I think in the first case it’s more useful to discuss motivation and making the right choices.
It’s important in the latter to ensure that we avoid survivorship bias. While looking at what people who succeeded did can be valuable, it’s often easy to overlook cases where people may have done the same thing and not succeeded, or where outside resources played a part. In my case, part of getting back on my feet has involved getting help from family, which is something I recognize not everyone can do.
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josephback
Guest
True and depressing.
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