Poverty is not what you think it is

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I was given the impression from the most recent budget that nearly a quarter of it is discretionary and non-discretionary military spending.
Here is Politifact on the 2015 budget.

I am not sure whether by “the most recent budget” you mean the 2017 budget request submitted by Obama or 2016.

ETA: but when you think about it, military is absolutely part of the job of the federal government, and fighting poverty is not.
 
On the idea of being a victim…I think it’s worth considering why people make certain mistakes. For example, we know that unwed parenthood does lead to more poverty. But we also know that the children of poverty are significantly more likely to be unwed parents and at a much younger age.

Another thought is that untreated mental health problems are a major risk factor for substance abuse. Those in higher stress situations are both more likely to be at risk for mental health problems and less likely to get treatment.

So in any case, it might not be as simple as just pointing out bad choices. We all make bad choices, and I think many of us might have made worse choices if we grew up in a different environment. If you’re poor, there are likely a lot more consequences to the bad choices you make, and there are often stronger pressures or temptations to make worse choices.
This is such a tricky subject, but you totally have a point. Clearly there are people, especially with mental or physical health problems for whom poverty is simply an added burden.

OTOH, how do we handle teens with problems such as substance abuse problems and poor impluse control? Through the legal system, which is not a good way to help someone out of a life of government involvement, not that we have really found a good other way 😦

So it seems like it would be a good idea to consider *all *the reasons people end up poor, and see what can be done to solve each of the source problems, some of which, of course, are insoluble, such as the fact that someone has a chronic illness.
 
ETA: but when you think about it, military is absolutely part of the job of the federal government, and fighting poverty is not.
On this we disagree.

Moreover, I’m confident we’d also disagree on what extent the US should be deployed abroad in the name of national security. Think of how alarmed you’d feel if Russia or China had as many foreign installations around the world as the US does! 😉

Now try to imagine how THEY feel in that same context.
 
Certain parts of IT are actually starting to get oversaturated.

It was that way with law for me. When I went into college, a philosophy degree was a great way to get into law school, and law was a sure-fire path to a decent job. Well, the first one’s still true, but the second has switched to being heavily oversaturated.

I would also point out that, obviously, not everyone is suited for everything. I have a friend who tried very hard to get into a STEM field to get a good job. She just couldn’t do it - no matter how hard she tried she just couldn’t make her brain work that way.
Learning STEM stuff means taking courses in STEM stuff.

Sometimes learning STEM stuff requires substantial effort.

No one is inherently innumerate.

Substantial effort may be required.

[Why did they change the name to STEM from whatever it was called before STEM?]
 
This is such a tricky subject, but you totally have a point. Clearly there are people, especially with mental or physical health problems for whom poverty is simply an added burden.

OTOH, how do we handle teens with problems such as substance abuse problems and poor impluse control? Through the legal system, which is not a good way to help someone out of a life of government involvement, not that we have really found a good other way 😦

So it seems like it would be a good idea to consider *all *the reasons people end up poor, and see what can be done to solve each of the source problems, some of which, of course, are insoluble, such as the fact that someone has a chronic illness.
Chronic illness may be mitigated, depending on the disorder. There are lots of chronic conditions that can be managed, either by training the person in a skill they can do or simply providing care to manage symptoms. (For example, plenty of mental health problems can be managed, but it’s often a matter of connecting people with the right care.)

The legal system is almost certainly a bad source, and we put extra roadblocks in the way. Convictions also impact someone’s employability for a very, very long time. Especially with the practice of trying juveniles as adults, which means that it’s much harder to seal the record.

I daresay personal expectations also matter. If a child grows up expecting the best he can do is work a low-end job and try to make ends meet with welfare, he’s not going to try very hard to improve his life - simply because he doesn’t have a real hope that he can.
Learning STEM stuff means taking courses in STEM stuff.

Sometimes learning STEM stuff requires substantial effort.

No one is inherently innumerate.

Substantial effort may be required.

[Why did they change the name to STEM from whatever it was called before STEM?]
I don’t think everyone can inherently learn to do advanced math on the level (including speed and accuracy) required for STEM subjects. Especially if you have the constraints of a normal college courseload and financial limits.
 
On this we disagree.

Moreover, I’m confident we’d also disagree on what extent the US should be deployed abroad in the name of national security. Think of how alarmed you’d feel if Russia or China had as many foreign installations around the world as the US does! 😉

Now try to imagine how THEY feel in that same context.
Defense of the nation as a whole is definitely part of what the federal government should be doing, and defense of the nation as needed is a part of every national government’s job.

That being said, what our government has the military do is up for discussion (in general, I mean, not here on this thread ;)).
 
Chronic illness may be mitigated, depending on the disorder. There are lots of chronic conditions that can be managed, either by training the person in a skill they can do or simply providing care to manage symptoms. (For example, plenty of mental health problems can be managed, but it’s often a matter of connecting people with the right care.)

The legal system is almost certainly a bad source, and we put extra roadblocks in the way. Convictions also impact someone’s employability for a very, very long time. Especially with the practice of trying juveniles as adults, which means that it’s much harder to seal the record.

I daresay personal expectations also matter. If a child grows up expecting the best he can do is work a low-end job and try to make ends meet with welfare, he’s not going to try very hard to improve his life - simply because he doesn’t have a real hope that he can.
You bring up some cery good points here. Poverty in the US is a multi-faceted problem which, imo, should be addressed on a more local level so that poor people could be helped in individual ways rather than in a factory way.
I don’t think everyone can inherently learn to do advanced math on the level (including speed and accuracy) required for STEM subjects. Especially if you have the constraints of a normal college courseload and financial limits.
 
You bring up some cery good points here. Poverty in the US is a multi-faceted problem which, imo, should be addressed on a more local level so that poor people could be helped in individual ways rather than in a factory way.
You have to balance it. It becomes an issue if it gets too local. You’re seeing that with the school system now in certain places. The local area is overall poor, so the school system can’t get the money to provide services to the students, which perpetuates poverty.
 
=Shredderbeam;14861072]Capitalism has lifted some out of poverty, true enough - no system has zero positive side-effects - but if worldwide American capitalism hasn’t lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty, what use is it?
If the world would adopt American capitalism, it probably would]
I know that you’re not Bill O’Reilly, and I know that you’re not using his arguments, but the data suggests that something has been very successful in reducing poverty
.
the problem is the percentage of those in poverty hasn’t changed
What leads you to conclude that the War on Poverty is directly responsible for increasing out-of-wedlock birthrates in black families, and not other factors?
There may be other factors, but the timeline of the dramatic rise of black children born out of wedlock is concurrent with the beginning of programs such as AFDC that “encouraged” fathers out of the house.
google.com/amp/amp.nationalreview.com/article/392842/legacy-liberalism-thomas-sowell
Sorry, that wasn’t what I meant. I was very tired, in fairness!
What I meant was that yes, we’ve spent roughly the U.S. government debt on social programs, but that was over several decades. It wasn’t one big splurge of spending, and we’ve run up the debt in other areas as well
Actually, not too much. Some of it is indeed other entitlement programs, but outside of that, the percentage of spending compared to the budget and GDP isn’t much different in areas such as defense.
Community college is a great alternative, but lots of families live paycheck to paycheck. It’s fine if you have an extra few thousand dollars, not so much if you don’t.
It generally isn’t thousands, and there is so much financial aid available
I don’t know about the offical poverty levels, but it’s very hard to earn a comfortable living as a high school graduate without a degree. Sure, you could master a trade, become an electrician or something, but statistically, there’s a big difference:
Depends on where you live (part of the reason not to have a federal minimum wage), but the fact is that a married couple both working full time at minimum wage can make it as a start.
I’ll definitely agree that majoring in philosophy probably won’t open up too many doors in the near future, but it’s possible to have a tax-payer funded college system where you’re not free to get a doctorate in art history, for example. Ireland, to pick a country, has a system where you have to demonstrate certain competencies in order to study certain subjects. Perhaps a system like that could work?
When I say “victim”, I mean “the one suffering the consequences”, not that they are blameless. Poor word choice on my part.
Dropping out of high school, having a pre-marital child, getting involved in drugs/crime - all of these things involve choices on the part of those involved, yes, but there are generally powerful forces pushing them to those choices
More consequences of not having two parent homes. But if we teach children this - in school!! - it may help
Capitalism is simply the private ownership of the means of production. In most countries, the means of production are not controlled by the state/workers. Venezuela is actually a very unusual example, as they never diversified their profits from oil.
Do not conflate the state with Workers. Most workers are part owners of the means of production if they have a 401k.
They acted just like all socialist states act - the benefit of the ruling class at the expense of the individual. It is a very common example of a socialist regime
 
You have to balance it. It becomes an issue if it gets too local. You’re seeing that with the school system now in certain places. The local area is overall poor, so the school system can’t get the money to provide services to the students, which perpetuates poverty.
And this is where the higher levels of government could (and do) help, by giving financial aid to poorer areas. For example, I once knew a G&T teacher in a very poor county, and her position was paid for by a grant from the state.
 
Most workers are part owners of the means of production if they have a 401k.
I almost spat my coffee out when I read this. What do you think this mean for the worker, if anything?
They acted just like all socialist states act - the benefit of the ruling class at the expense of the individual.
And capitalist societies are any different?
 
On this we disagree.

Moreover, I’m confident we’d also disagree on what extent the US should be deployed abroad in the name of national security. Think of how alarmed you’d feel if Russia or China had as many foreign installations around the world as the US does! 😉

Now try to imagine how THEY feel in that same context.
The plain language of the constitution agrees with St Francis.
 
I almost spat my coffee out when I read this. What do you think this mean for the worker, if anything?

And capitalist societies are any different?
For me, as a worker, it means significantly more money to retire on, money I can pass on to my family, as opposed to Social Security that confiscates my property with no promise of a return.
Government control of the means of production only means the that the ruling class lives well while everyone else gets according to what the ruling class thinks their needs are.

In capitalism, anyone can, and many do, escape poverty. The American standard of living, even today under the growing mountain of government power, is the greatest in the world because of capitalism and limited government
 
For me, as a worker, it means significantly more money to retire on, money I can pass on to my family, as opposed to Social Security that confiscates my property with no promise of a return.
Government control of the means of production only means the that the ruling class lives well while everyone else gets according to what the ruling class thinks their needs are.

In capitalism, anyone can, and many do, escape poverty. The American standard of living, even today under the growing mountain of government power, is the greatest in the world because of capitalism and limited government
I’m always a little suspicious of this. It’s like saying anyone can win a race. That’s true, anyone can, but not everyone can. The worry with capitalism is that you end up with a situation where there are X well-paying jobs, and X+Y people who want jobs. Most pure capitalist societies have either practiced slavery or had a large number of very low paid jobs.
 
I’m always a little suspicious of this. It’s like saying anyone can win a race. That’s true, anyone can, but not everyone can. The worry with capitalism is that you end up with a situation where there are X well-paying jobs, and X+Y people who want jobs. Most pure capitalist societies have either practiced slavery or had a large number of very low paid jobs.
And in socialism all the jobs are low paying except the ruling class. The fact is even most of those at the poverty line here in America live far better than the truly empoverished around the world.
There are two parts to this: capitalism and individual rights. If government denies individual rights by allowing or imposing slavery, then it really isn’t capitalism. It government owns the means of production, then it is servitude for all but the ruling class
 
And in socialism all the jobs are low paying except the ruling class. The fact is even most of those at the poverty line here in America live far better than the truly empoverished around the world.
There are two parts to this: capitalism and individual rights. If government denies individual rights by allowing or imposing slavery, then it really isn’t capitalism. It government owns the means of production, then it is servitude for all but the ruling class
On the other hand, in unrestricted capitalism, you end up with a lot of jobs that almost might as well be slavery. The worker is technically free, but he’s expected to work the entire day to meet his basic needs. He doesn’t have the free resources to develop a better skill, and refusing to work will harm him faster than it will harm the business owner, unless there’s some sort of labor organization.

Capitalism also tends towards its own destruction without sufficient regulation. People that gain a lot of power and wealth through capitalism tend to use that to keep themselves on top. See things like, for example, the problems with the company town. Workers would end up in a town where they had to purchase housing and goods from the company, at prices the company set.

I think you’ll find American capitalism has done less to wipe these issues out and more to export them.
 
For me, as a worker, it means significantly more money to retire on, money I can pass on to my family, as opposed to Social Security that confiscates my property with no promise of a return.
More money indeed.

My sympathies to the multitudes that held the old GM stock (or any other failed stock) and those that counted on their 401(k)s to be there for them in 2009. Hopefully you didn’t cash-out too much in a low market out of necessity for survival and kept a sufficient investment to meaningfully capitalize on the slow recovery.

Social security is a lower risk “investment” than any given stock (as the volatility beta for the government is less than one). SS default would require the default of the federal government. Fiscally conservative doomsayers have been prophesying this default since the 70s and 80s…

Trust me, if a real, full federal default happens, your retirement will be the least of your concerns.
Government control of the means of production only means the that the ruling class lives well while everyone else gets according to what the ruling class thinks their needs are.
You could strike out “Government control” from the statement and replace it with literally anything and it would still be equally true.
In capitalism, anyone can, and many do, escape poverty.
Social mobility is a reality. But for every person that becomes wealthier, someone has to become poorer - as an economic fact. Otherwise inflation renders the wealth as moot.

The value of wealth is its scarcity. If everyone is wealthy, no one is wealthy since the price of goods will inflate to that new, higher equilibrium.
The American standard of living, even today under the growing mountain of government power, is the greatest in the world because of capitalism and limited government
The American standard of living, factually, is not the highest in the world. We’re currently 20th.
 
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