Poverty is the ultimate form of control

[minkymurph]

I recently read a quote that stated:

‘Poverty is the ultimate form of control as it erodes hope, increases inequality, and makes people lives so hard that they don’t have the chance to demand better.’

Trickle-down policy’s detractors see the policy as tax cuts for the rich and don’t think the tax cuts benefit lower-income earners. They are correct - tax cuts do not benefit lower-income earners. The flaw in the policy is it has little to offer in terms of reducing poverty.

As Catholics we have an obligation to assist the poor. Tax cuts have the potential to assist the poor in that it facilitates business that in turn can create jobs, but poverty prevents the dis-empowered from filling those jobs as poverty impacts on physical and mental health, education, communities in terms of bad housing and fuel poverty. Charity can only compensate for these disadvantages to a certain extend and is a short term fix that creates dependency culture as charity has not the capacity to empower people to help themselves and become autonomous.

What I am opening for debate is:

Trickle down policies should encompass strategies that compensate for the effects of poverty other than charity.

Responses?

 

[minkymurph]

Rules of debate - no answering a question with a question.

An on a lighthearted note no politician’s responses.

The politicians response is -

*Well I’m really glad you asked me that for at this point in time,
in the circumstances that prevail there is in the pipe line,
infrastructural implications interfaced with lines of thought that lead to grass root viabilities that at this point I’d rather not,
renunciate in ambiguties but rather seek to find,
negotiated compromises that are the bottom line,
for full and frank discussion that could serve to integrate with basic fundamental principles to which we all relate.
Not indoctrinaire philosophy that any fool can see in an inescapable hypothesis confronting you and me,
but in the interests of the common good now you need never fear, for I have the matter well in hand I’m glad I’ve made things clear. *

Mickey McConnell - Irish political journalist.

Couldn’t resist that.

 

[RPRPsych]

I think looking at this problem from a purely materialistic perspective is insufficient.

Material poverty, after all, does not arise in a vacuum. Often, it is inextricably entwined with spiritual and cultural deviance and degradation. A purely financial solution apart from the Gospel and the teachings of the Church as a whole is unlikely to endure.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

It seems to me that education is the critical peace. Free or reduced education will reduce poverty without charity. Is free education charity? I don’t think so.

 

[Mary_Estelle]

Poverty-esp. here in the U. S. is conceptional. If I think I am poor, then I am poor. No one likes taxes, but taxes paid eliminates a lot of misery. Some of the "poorest " people I know are also the happiest. There are those that I know that have every electronic gizmo, nicest homes and newest cars, that indulge in their own pity parties.

If you have shelter, cloths and food, you are not poor comparative to third world counties or nations torn but war or desasters. It isn’t as if most Americans are sleeping in ditches as were some of my ancestors back in Ireland several generation ago.

I notice that there are some members on the forum that ask for aid in sneaky ways, but still have computers and the Internet. Not too many, but some. The first thing I would do if I were in that position is to give up such electronics and the debts that that they incur.

Jesus said that the poor would always be with us and He chose one of His apostles-a tax collector-to follow him. He didn’t have a problem with taxes, but with the money changers in the Temple… He said "Render unto Ceasor what belongs to Ceasor(sp).

Poverty is relative. I don’t think a government really wants its’ citizen to wallow in abject poverty because then they can not collect taxes and the government functions on taxes.

Also, look up poverty in the Vat. 11 documents. It addresses spiritual poverty as opposed to material poverty. Pardon my spelling and that I have not gone into depth on the subject of taxes. I am kind of tired and don’t want to fool with spelling. Peace.

 

[GEddie]

The only “just” way to deal with poverty is to increase opportunity for the poor. And often this means promoting business by allowing more discretionary spending by the nonpoor. Hence tax cuts.

Robin-Hoodism at governmental level (taxing the rich to give to the poor) except for bare necessities, is unfair.

We should all accept that poverty is engrained in the structure of human life and that any attempt to “fix it” will take generations.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

It seems to me that education is the critical peace. Free or reduced education will reduce poverty without charity. Is free education charity? I don’t think so.

Education is important, however, the public school system has created the biggest separation of “class” in the history of the USA. No, education is an investment and is being used to keep the poor in their demographic class.

 

[Jake_Parker]

The problem here in the US, too much arguing and blaming by the politicians, and little actually being done to address the issue. Then when they do come up with something, it’s either the “band-aid” fix from Democrats, or the unsuccessful “trickle-down” economics form the Republicans.

To do:

-Tax cuts are not the answer, we need an entire tax/financial reform.

-Stop throwing food stamps/welfare at people and thinking you just solved their problem

-Getting rid of income & payroll taxes, let more of a person’s paycheck go to them.

-More church based programs. I hear lots of Protestant argue that it is the job of churches to help those in poverty, not the government’s. Yet from every individual I’ve heard make this statement, they do nothing in their personal life to support this. I am not including the Catholic Church, because I know it does a lot of good already.

-Auditing the Federal Reserve has been proposed, and I think this would help at least by holding another part of the government accountable.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Education is important, however, the public school system has created the biggest separation of “class” in the history of the USA. No, education is an investment and is being used to keep the poor in their demographic class.

How is education keeping the poor in their demographic class? Because of the disparity of education opportunities?

 

[Theo520]

Quite a few unsupported assertions there.

Reagan’s Earned Income tax credit was a big help to poor working people

 

[LethalMouse]

Nothing works in and of itself, but tax xuts do much more than you think.

One major battle cry for the left is “in 1940 you could live on a single min wage job”

Okay lets see a few areas in the country maybe not but then again… probably not then either!!!

So were I live, lets try and see what 1940 looks like

First a family of 4 was a family of FOUR not five splinter exes with random kids floating around
ONE TV
ONE Car
ONE house phone
NO paid TV
Library has free internet
Livable but not “dream” house
Oh and even up to like the 1970s most people who ripped a piece of clothing??? Momma sewed that thing!!

When is the last time you saw patches outside of a fashion statement?? LOL

People are really so poor now they cant live like 1940?? Or just greedy??

At 8.25 min wage here if you started out of HS you in just about every job get some kind of raises even McDs!!

So if you worked there for 2 or 3 yrs you are prob more around $9/hr.

Now $8 thru $9 an hour for like 3 yrs saving up to leave home, cheap house like $50K with 5k down, one car one tv, one house phone etc etc… maybe a year later popping out a kid etc etc… yeah this is all possible.

Howevwr how it goes is job hop 10 times keep restarting at min wage. Have at least one random baby momma, court costs + child support, get new wife and say "Government makes me too poor!!

Pfft I have met poor people.

I have been poor.

The onky ones who stay poor blame the gov instead of doing stuff.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

How is education keeping the poor in their demographic class? Because of the disparity of education opportunities?

Documentary, “Waiting for Superman” highlights some of the biggest problems:

Teacher unions
Teachers tenure and discipline problems that arise from tenure.
Conflicting bureaucracy between schools, county, state, and federal.
Common core
Funding into neighborhoods by state and federal

When I first examined this documentary I thought it was shocking. Now that I have children and have witnessed a small amount of this I am shocked and scared for the economy. My small experience is realized with my friend who used to live five minutes away from me. She had a beautiful house, and had put lots of love into her house. When we had children, she realized that she was on the wrong side of the city/county lines. Her child’s school would give her one of the worst elementary schools in the area. She considered a charter school, but that would cause excess driving. Instead, she sold her dream home to get into a better school district; our school district.

I vividly remember in that documentary how in Washington DC the rich schools are next to the poor schools. Totally outrageous! Further when teachers were offered higher salaries vs tenure, the teachers credit union pulled to stop this. Even HBO is making fun of the problem of teacher put ahead of students in the show, “Vice Principals”.

Now, I respect and admire my children’s teachers. I realize that not all students are give the opportunity to have the same educational opportunities. I was an economics major in college, and the disparity between education based off property ownership is catastrophic to an economy; unless the goal is to further divide the classes and eliminate the middle class.

 

[David_Fortin]

It might seem controversial, but many people that I’ve encountered through the years actually “choose” to live in poverty. They fully understand the individual causes of their poverty "lack of education, poor financial choices,drugs,alcohol, and sexual immorality, yet most stubbornly refuse to do anything to alleviate their situation.

I like to think of poverty as a “Hydra” with many heads. Unfortunately, there is political power for politicians that feed the Hydra.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

It might seem controversial, but many people that I’ve encountered through the years actually “choose” to live in poverty. They fully understand the individual causes of their poverty "lack of education, poor financial choices,drugs,alcohol, and sexual immorality, yet most stubbornly refuse to do anything to alleviate their situation.

I like to think of poverty as a “Hydra” with many heads. Unfortunately, there is political power for politicians that feed the Hydra.

Adults sometimes, that is all they know and don’t want to change. That is why the children are so vulnerable and need to be the direct targets of any intervention. But I don’t know enough to about the elementary and secondary education system to suggest change. Now about you, Giggly Giraffe?

 

[Robert_Sock]

First off, the ultimate form of social control is the mass media. It shapes our attitudes, values, and beliefs.

Giving poor people money is often necessary to ease the situation of those truly in need, and we are commanded throughout the bible that we need to care for the poor, but simply giving them money is not the cure. I now believe that the problem of poverty can be eliminated through capitalism, something that I did not believe just a few years back. I do not want to sound stereotypical, but the attitudes, values, and beliefs of those living in poverty need to change, as do the attitudes, values, and beliefs of the rest of society. This will happen, I believe, through the mass media and religion. Spirituality is necessary and is going to transform the economic system by drastically changing people’s wants and motivation in such a way that there will be harmony between people of all classes.

 

[Sarcelle]

It might seem controversial, but many people that I’ve encountered through the years actually “choose” to live in poverty. They fully understand the individual causes of their poverty "lack of education, poor financial choices,drugs,alcohol, and sexual immorality, yet most stubbornly refuse to do anything to alleviate their situation.

I like to think of poverty as a “Hydra” with many heads. Unfortunately, there is political power for politicians that feed the Hydra.

There are many causes to poverty so why go around thinking that there is only one solution?

There is no magic silver bullet.

 

[andrewstx]

It seems to me that education is the critical peace. Free or reduced education will reduce poverty without charity. Is free education charity? I don’t think so.

There is no such thing as "free education’. Every one pays property tax. Even renters pay it through their rent.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

There is no such thing as "free education’. Every one pays property tax. Even renters pay it through their rent.

Of course I mean tuition free or discounted.

 

[minkymurph]

It seems to me that education is the critical peace. Free or reduced education will reduce poverty without charity. Is free education charity? I don’t think so.

No - free education is not charity. Under the UN charter it is a right.

I agree with you. Education is key to reducing poverty.

 

[minkymurph]

Poverty-esp. here in the U. S. is conceptional. If I think I am poor, then I am poor. No one likes taxes, but taxes paid eliminates a lot of misery. Some of the "poorest " people I know are also the happiest. There are those that I know that have every electronic gizmo, nicest homes and newest cars, that indulge in their own pity parties.

If you have shelter, cloths and food, you are not poor comparative to third world counties or nations torn but war or desasters. It isn’t as if most Americans are sleeping in ditches as were some of my ancestors back in Ireland several generation ago.

I notice that there are some members on the forum that ask for aid in sneaky ways, but still have computers and the Internet. Not too many, but some. The first thing I would do if I were in that position is to give up such electronics and the debts that that they incur.

Jesus said that the poor would always be with us and He chose one of His apostles-a tax collector-to follow him. He didn’t have a problem with taxes, but with the money changers in the Temple… He said "Render unto Ceasor what belongs to Ceasor(sp).

Poverty is relative. I don’t think a government really wants its’ citizen to wallow in abject poverty because then they can not collect taxes and the government functions on taxes.

Also, look up poverty in the Vat. 11 documents. It addresses spiritual poverty as opposed to material poverty. Pardon my spelling and that I have not gone into depth on the subject of taxes. I am kind of tired and don’t want to fool with spelling. Peace.

I agree poverty is comparative. That is why we should perceive poverty in accordance with what constitutes poverty in our respective societies and not by comparison to another.

I agree government’s may not pro-actively desires to keep it’s citizen’s in poverty. That is why I said policies that benefit the rich should be tempered with those that benefit the poor. The comments I made at the outset of the post were stated in response to austerity. The current situation in the EU to me confirms it does not work.

No one likes paying taxes but they are necessary. Debt is a huge issue at present and yes people could get rid of all their gadgets, but matters are more complicated. People today are encouraged to live in debt and internet has become a necessity for daily living. Trying to buy anything or do business without internet access is becoming next to impossible.