Powerful evidence for Design?

[tonyrey]

Powerful evidence for Design is powerful evidence for the existence of God. No philosophical or theological argument can provide a **logical proof **of the existence of God - or the existence of anything else for that matter - not even our minds or bodies…

It has occurred to me that the existence of logic presupposes the existence of at least one rational being. So even logic is powerful evidence for Design because it is essential for rational activity.

 

[inocente]

The Design explanation has met with ferocious opposition from Christians and atheists alike even though all reasonable people act as if life is purposeful. The best test of what we believe is how we live. People commit suicide because they think life is not worth living but they usually do so because of some misfortune. Even their act of suicide is purposeful. Their goal is to escape from a life which seems to have become purposeless. By deliberately killing themselves they have demonstrated they are capable of formulating and fulfilling a purpose - not by necessity but by choice.

That’s sad and treacherous. If you or any reader feels that suicide is a purposefully sane act then see your doctor straight away. Many people suffer from depression at some point in their lives and your doctor knows how to help you. Depression can cause irrational thoughts to seem reasonable, and thinking that suicide fulfills a chosen purpose is desperately dumb.

 

[Micorhizea]

Powerful evidence for Design is powerful evidence for the existence of God. No philosophical or theological argument can provide a **logical proof **of the existence of God - or the existence of anything else for that matter - not even our minds or bodies…

So what is the point of adamantly promoting a specious argument that is clearly an anthropomorphic overlay on something whose actual nature you, we, intellectually know pretty much zip about, save some technicalities of 3D existence?

 

[Micorhizea]

It has occurred to me that the existence of logic presupposes the existence of at least one rational being. So even logic is powerful evidence for Design because it is essential for rational activity.

No, it proves that some humans can abstract order from some kinds of relationships at various levels of organization. And please don’t do the “order=design” thing. Even that order is a superimposition on a bigger, brighter, deeper picture. And it being a picture, you ignore the “canvas” it’s “painted” on or the nature of the movie itself. So does science, and so does most of religion, as far as I can tell.

 

[tonyrey]

That’s sad and treacherous. If you or any reader feels that suicide is a purposefully sane act then see your doctor straight away. Many people suffer from depression at some point in their lives and your doctor knows how to help you. Depression can cause irrational thoughts to seem reasonable, and thinking that suicide fulfills a chosen purpose is desperately dumb.

NB:

People commit suicide because they think life is not worth living but they usually do so because of some misfortune.

BTW I continue to ignore and delete all your personal remarks which do nothing to further the discussion.

 

[tonyrey]

It has occurred to me that the existence of logic presupposes the existence of at least one rational being. So even logic is powerful evidence for Design because it is essential for rational activity.

To “abstract order” implies rational activity

And please don’t do the “order=design” thing. Even that order is a superimposition on a bigger, brighter, deeper picture. And it being a picture, you ignore the “canvas” it’s “painted” on or the nature of the movie itself. So does science, and so does most of religion, as far as I can tell.

Order is not a superimposition but a fundamental feature of an intelligible universe.

 

[tonyrey]

*Powerful evidence for Design is powerful evidence for the existence of God. No philosophical or theological argument can provide a **logical proof ***

It is not an “anthropomorphic overlay” but a rational description of an intelligible universe in which there are rational beings whose existence is inadequately explained by non-rational processes.

 

[grannymh]

That’s sad and treacherous. If you or any reader feels that suicide is a purposefully sane act then see your doctor straight away. Many people suffer from depression at some point in their lives and your doctor knows how to help you. Depression can cause irrational thoughts to seem reasonable, and thinking that suicide fulfills a chosen purpose is desperately dumb.

Thank you for pointing this out. Not only can various forms of mental disease lead to suicide, but even the medication for depression, etc., can possibly lead to thoughts of suicide. Listen to the TV advertising for certain drugs.

The first suicide that was close to me was that of a Catholic neighbor. The Catholic Church teaches that in the case of suicide, we do not know all the mental circumstances. And, most importantly, we do not know the last thoughts of the victim. From the way my neighbor hung, it was apparent that at the last moment she struggled for life.

Recognizing the power of God to touch a person’s soul and recognizing the power of the soul to respond, the Catholic Church honors the death of a suicide victim in the same way as other deaths.

 

[grannymh]

Belief in Design obviously does not entail belief in God because it is compatible with agnosticism.

Powerful evidence for Design is powerful evidence for the existence of God. No philosophical or theological argument can provide a **logical proof **of the existence of God - or the existence of anything else for that matter - not even our minds or bodies…

I do not intend to debate the above statements.

In my humble observation, they exemplify some of the problems in both this thread and in real life.

 

[Micorhizea]

…a rational description of an intelligible universe in which there are rational beings whose existence is inadequately explained by non-rational processes.

QED an overlay. Thank you. Peace, out.

 

[tonyrey]

A rational description

[/QUOTE]

 

[tonyrey]

Belief in Design obviously does not entail belief in God because it is compatible with agnosticism.

You are right, of course, the truth is always far more complex than any of our statements about reality. There are qualifications ad infinitum…

 

[inocente]

NB:

I quoted all of that, it’s not small print. You wrote, of people who commit suicide, “By deliberately killing themselves they have demonstrated they are capable of formulating and fulfilling a purpose - not by necessity but by choice”.

That sounds like irresponsible nonsense, so please correct me by expanding on what you mean when you say “By deliberately killing themselves they have demonstrated they are capable of formulating and fulfilling a purpose - not by necessity but by choice”.

 

[tonyrey]

Thank you for pointing this out. Not only can various forms of mental disease lead to suicide, but even the medication for depression, etc., can possibly lead to thoughts of suicide. Listen to the TV advertising for certain drugs.

The first suicide that was close to me was that of a Catholic neighbor. The Catholic Church teaches that in the case of suicide, we do not know all the mental circumstances. And, most importantly, we do not know the last thoughts of the victim. From the way my neighbor hung, it was apparent that at the last moment she struggled for life.

Recognizing the power of God to touch a person’s soul and recognizing the power of the soul to respond, the Catholic Church honors the death of a suicide victim in the same way as other deaths.

I had a friend who committed suicide but I’m sure she didn’t want to die. I believe she was driven to do it against her will. She was terrified of being on her own and even went to church with me rather than stay alone. The whole time she was there the tears were running down her cheeks…

 

[tonyrey]

People commit suicide because they think life is not worth living but they usually do so because of some misfortune

The two key sentences are:

Even their act of suicide is purposeful. Their goal is to escape from a life which seems to have become purposeless.

No matter how distraught or depressed people may be they are still capable of planning how to kill themselves and putting their plan into effect.

BTW The simplest solution to your problem is to avoid making personal remarks and concentrate on the topic.

 

[Bobber90]

One of the saddest features of contemporary society is its loss of moral values and the pursuit of pleasure rather than perfection. A typical secular interpretation of life is given by Clarence Darrow:

‘All we know is that we were born on this little grain of sand which we call the earth. …The best that we can do is to be kindly and helpful towards our friends and fellow passengers clinging to the same speck of dirt while we are drifting side by side to our common doom.’

Let’s repeat that! The best that we can do is to be kindly and helpful towards our friends and fellow passengers.

That’s not so bad, for a typical secular interpretation of life?

 

[tonyrey]

Let’s repeat that! The best that we can do is to be kindly and helpful towards our friends and fellow passengers.

That’s not so bad, for a typical secular interpretation of life?

Unfortunately not everyone shares that view - as we can see from the gross injustice and needless misery in human society.

 

[inocente]

No matter how distraught or depressed people may be they are still capable of planning how to kill themselves and putting their plan into effect.

So much is obvious, I am asking why you introduced suicide in the first place and what it has with Design™. Here to remind you is what you wrote:

The Design explanation has met with ferocious opposition from Christians and atheists alike even though all reasonable people act as if life is purposeful. The best test of what we believe is how we live. People commit suicide because they think life is not worth living but they usually do so because of some misfortune. Even their act of suicide is purposeful. Their goal is to escape from a life which seems to have become purposeless. By deliberately killing themselves they have demonstrated they are capable of formulating and fulfilling a purpose - not by necessity but by choice.

-\

 

[Bobber90]

Unfortunately not everyone shares that view - as we can see from the gross injustice and needless misery in human society.

Alas. I would argue for people to become more like that typical secularist then

 

[Micorhizea]

Micorhizea;9129375:

An overlay which corresponds to reality.

No, not really. You want it to, but you have not looked far or deep enough. But it will do for you for now. Eventually you will necessarily come to see differently. In the mean time I leave you with this. they are from Mel Schwartz, L.C.S.W., but they could be mine, in essence. God bless.

*My position is as follows: The universe appears to be essentially inseparable whereby everything interpenetrates everything else. As odd as it may seem, it appears that all divisions and boundaries are simply matters of our thought’s construction. Bewildering and as counterintuitive as it sounds, nothing appears separate from anything else in the quantum world. Moreover, the same seems to apply in our everyday macro world. If we proceed from this underlying assumption of the emerging sciences, then the word connection loses its basis. If there’s no separation, there’s no need for connection. The way that we utilize language very much informs our reality. Therefore, I resist using the word connection since it misinforms me.

Although the notion of a mind-body connection is a far cry from traditional medicine, which views the mind and body in a dualistic dichotomy, it doesn’t go quite far enough. Mind and body appear to be simply differing aspects of the same whole. As the head and tail of a coin are not separate, but differential points of the same coin, mind and body are thoroughly entwined and inseparable. Where one leaves off and the other starts is a consideration rooted in the outdated belief of cause and effect.

If we could only see our fingers in their separation and had no vision of the hand that grounds the fingers, we might be speaking of the connection between our fingers, not understanding that they are all part of the same hand, no less the same body.*